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The logic behind the stimulus plan is this. When the economy starts to go bad, people pull up the drawbridge ... --they draw in and spend less--which makes the overall problem much much worse.

right on point, sir!
but why then, when it would be desirable, that the people spend more - all over the world the goverments give the stimulus moneys to Banksters and Corporatesters?
money, that has to be brought up by the people? you and me?
money, that we can't spend, to keep economy going...

[thoughtfullness]what have all heads of goverments in common? - they have to campain, to get elected.
where does the campain money come from?
where will be their loyality after being elected?[/thoughtfullness]
 
With out getting politics involved, I think part of the WWII equation was a large number of the "work force" was "employed" buy the armed forces? As to "will it work"? Does anything the fed sets out to do work the way they tell us it's going to???Better Idea, how about this: all "elected" Gov. employees take a "temporary" 50% pay and benefits cut. When they finish going thru the budget and reduce it by 5% over last years, then they can have their full pay, provided that does not put the new budget "over the new budget limits" I know there are 100 reasons we could not do this, but boy I wish we could...
 
Lownote:

I have an idea, won't go so far as to say it's better, but how 'bout the government stop spending money it doesn't have (deficit spending--except in wartime) and we all learn to live within our means?

Les
 
I was sent this in an email today and thought I would just send it along since the topic seems to be about our government and how it seem to know what is better for all of us.

"The Proposal"



When a company falls on difficult times, one of the things that seems to happen is they reduce their staff and workers. The remaining workers need to find ways to continue to do a good job or risk that their job would be eliminated as well. Wall street, and the media normally congratulate the CEO for making this type of "tough decision", and his board of directors gives him a big bonus.



Our government should not be immune from similar risks.



Therefore: . . . .



Reduce the House of Representatives from the current 435 members to 218 members and Senate members from 100 to 50 (one per State). Also reduce remaining staff by 25%.



Accomplish this over the next 8 years. (two steps / two elections) and of course this would require some redistricting.



Some Yearly Monetary Gains Include:



$44,108,400 for elimination of base pay for congress. (267 members X $165,200 pay/member per year.



$97,175,000 for elimination of the above people's staff. (estimate $1.3 Million in staff per each member of the House, and $3 Million in staff per each member of the Senate every year)



$240,294 for the reduction in remaining staff by 25%.



$7,500,000,000 reduction in pork barrel ear-marks each year. (those members whose jobs are gone. Current estimates for total government pork earmarks are at 15 Billion per year).




The remaining representatives would need work smarter and would need to improve efficiencies. It might even be in their best interests to work together for the good of our country.



We may also expect that smaller committees might lead to a more efficient resolution of issues as well. It might even be easier to keep track of what your representative is doing.



Congress has more tools available to do their jobs than it had back in 1911 when the current number of representatives was established. (telephone, computers, cell phones to name a few).



Note: Congress did not hesitate to head home when it was a holiday, when the nation needed a real fix to the economic problems. Also, we have 3 senators that have not been doing their jobs for the past 18+ months (on the campaign trail) and still they all have been accepting full pay. These facts alone support a reduction in senators & congress.



Summary of opportunity:



$44,108,400 reduction of congress members.



$282,100,000 for elimination of the reduced house member staff.



$150,000,000 for elimination of r educed senate member staff.



$59,675,000 for 25% reduction of staff for remaining house members.



$37,500,000 for 25% reduction of staff for remaining senate members.



$7,500,000,000 reduction in pork added to bills by the reduction of congress members .



$8,073,383,400 per year, estimated total savings. (that's 8-BILLION just to start!)



Big business does these types of cuts all the time.



If Congresspersons were required to serve 20, 25 or 30 years (like everyone else) in order to collect retirement benefits there is no telling how much we would save.



Now they get full retirement after serving only ONE term! Why do they need/deserve full retirement after only one year. Maybe, at most, a pro-rata retirement like 10% per year.





IF you are happy how the Congress spends our taxes, then just delete this message.

IF you are NOT at all happy, then I assume you know what to do.
 
Posted By Allan W. Miller on 02/28/2009 5:07 PM
"That's the logic behind the stimulus plan. Will it work? I hope so. Anybody got a better idea?"
-------------------------------

Here's the fatal flaw in that logic: NOBODY trusts government any more. And can you blame them? Do you?

But sell my trains? HA! Never happen!



Someone at the bar asked me how much I had invested into this layout. I gave him my estimate, which included construction of two buildings for housing the model towns and an expensive elevated line that extends out from the bar about 250 feet. With all the pieces I have purchased just in the last three years, the value is quite high, BUT I also explained that I did not build it with the intention of selling it or otherwise attempting to recover my investment. I explained that although the layout includes many collector's items, I deliberately threw away the boxes which give those pieces a much higher value because each element of the layout is integrated into the whole and that the layout is one single piece of investment that can only have its value depreciated over time. That value cannot be recovered under ordinary circumstances and certainly under present economic conditions. I see it as spent vacation money except the vacation never quite ends.
 
Why is there a need for a stimulus plan??

People got greedy.

Homeowners saw a near record increase in the perceived value of their homes, and elected to capitalize on that by refinancing, taking that "free" cash and spending it on things that might not have been really ncessary. I know, defining "necessary" is a little hazardous... Then all of a sudden, they were in over their head on monthly expeditures, resulting in defaults on financial obligations.

Other folks got sucked into "creative" financing and loans for homes that they were in no way qualified for. House prices were skyrocketing (all on speculation), and coupled with the perception that home values would continue to rise, people figured that they could take an ARM, refinance in a couple of years (before the rates really made a significant impact), and ride out the storm...

Banks got greedy, trying to capture more market share of the mortgage business, and made loans to people who had no business owning a home (and let's NOT get into any semblance of an argument about who deserves their own piece of the American Dream...), or wished to buy more home than they could afford...

Then things started to stagnate, or take a down turn as interest rate schedules began to mature (jump, if you will)...

People started to see their investments turn to smoke (figuratively, not literally), and decided that they were better off abandoning their financialy responsibilities.

Banks started to see a huge increase in unpaid debts (not just mortgages, but credit cards, too. pay the mortgage, or pay the card?? maybe neither!!)

The spiral starts.

Tack on the monsterous late fees for any hiccup in debt repayment, and watch the world dissolve. Oh, you can't afford the payment due?? Well, let's just jack that unaffordable amount up another $20, $30, $40...)

Folks declare bankruptcy, or just walk away from their obligations, thinking that the worst that can be done to them has already happened.

Now the banks are stuck with a huge mess, and refuse to acknowledge that they are solely to blame for their own mess, and beg for help...

And so do the homeowners that haven't already been kicked out of the homes that they shouldn't have been approved (by whatever credit agency) for in the first place.

Things start looking really shaky.

"We" need help.

I believe that the "We", needs to look at their own failings, and figure out how they re going to fix it. On their own. Without outside assitance. Like just about any other business that makes poor business decisions. You succeed on your own, or you fail on your own.

Don't ask me to carry your over-paid, lard @$$, business ignorant debt load, because you are dumber tha a box of rocks...

And *NO*, I do not owe *ANYONE* a piece of *MY* slice of the American Dream...

I have worked very hard to be where I am no longer (witness the degradation of our 401K's to 201K's) and I refuse to willingly give my *profits* to those who desire them, simply because they are in need.

Their salvation or preservation should be based solely upon their contribution and value to society...

Rant off...
 
As usual Duncan...ON DA MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There IS an orderly process for fixing a company that is over their head in debt....it's called BANKRUPCY...and it frequently leads to a revitalized company after the process completes. And, ya know what, it works for folks that stupidly got in over their heads in the real estate/investment/kickback/bribe market...cept, usually in reverse.

Most folks do NOT know that the NEW bankrupcy laws passed by our fabled Congress last year make it almost impossible for anyone working and earning a salary to "walk away" from a mortgage. Under the new law, the mortgage holder can easily attach their salary. So....for practical purposes, there's no walking away anymore.
 
Duncan's point is well taken - do I want to bail out the morons on wall street who bet everything on perpetually-rising housing values? Or thought it was wise to create and trade millions of derivative securities based on obviously risky mortgages? No. But - unless you "don't care" about the economy and overall welfare of the country - we don't have much of a choice. Because these fools decided to insure each other's mortgage-based holdings through credit default swaps, the moment Lehman went belly up, the entire banking system began to crash like a house of cards. Currently, the corporate M&A market is dead because the banks are terrified of lending anyone money and the consumer credit market is just as bad - as a result, the economy has basically ground to a halt. While I agree that families shouldn't live beyond their means and that corporations over-leveraged themselves, the availability of credit is absolutely crucial to any capitalist economy (unless you're operating under Islamic law, I suppose). I don't see any way around a solution that involves shoring up and rescuing the financial sector.

Until this September, I had been operating under the illusion that unregulated markets ALWAYS operated more efficiently than regulated markets and that self interest/rational decisionmaking would prevent an entire sector from leveraging itself into oblivion. I - together with Allen Greenspan - was wrong.

Also, Mike is totally right with respect to the bankruptcy laws. Nice priorities, eh? The larger bankruptcy law also make it much easier for creditors (specifically, Visa, Mastercard, and AMEX) to access a bankrupt individual's assets, etc.
 
This is just the start. It's going to get a whole lot worse! I'm scared not for myself or my wife but for my kids and grandkids! I keep thinking about that line that "...our experiment in Democracy will last only until the majority realizes that they can vote themselves the largesse of others. Two "Republics" come to mind; the first being the Roman Republic (and look what happened to it!) and more recently, the Weimar Republic! Look up their histories and see how they parallel what is happening in this country. The scary part is that it's happening so fast that the checks and balances that were put into our system of government to keep this from happening have been totally circumvented! By the time the populace wakes up from their stupor and can actually admit that they allowed it to happen it will probably be too late! I pray to God I am wrong....
 
Posted By TonyWalsham on 03/01/2009 9:17 PM
What we have is a system that privatises the profits and socialises the losses.

Hands up[/i] those who think that is fair?


I wonder how many people will catch your pun?!?!?!?!
Image
 
Actually, part of the problem is all the people that want a "Hand OUT"...

But your pun (or double entendre) is usually "Hands up" that is followed by "This is a stick-up!"

That is definitely one private person profiting via the losses of the social collective... on the other side of the gun/tax/extortion/deficit spending/etc.

Image
 
Umm... Let's try and stick to trains guys.. This topic is too political in nature.. There are other forums to discuss political matters.
 
Well here is my ½ cent. I think it is obvious to even a old Marine with a high school diploma that the banking / mortgage sector, with the US Governments help has screwed the old pooch BIG TIME! By the results of the last election most of the people in this country (including some of my in-laws) still have not figured out that the government HAS NO MONEY!! The government has your and my money - period. So, bail out â€" stimulus or hold up, or anything else you want to call it is being financed right out of old Ted’s pocket and that is the same one my train money comes out of. I could say this makes me angry but that would be the biggest understatement sense Noah looked up and said … (Looks like rain). I like John, have stopped watching the news because they are piping fear into the homes of Americans like the Nazis piped the gas. I have seen better integrity at a dog fight. Well I guess they gotta make a buck too even if it hurts the country. You can bet the farm (if you still own one) that the congress will take care of themselves - no matter what.
Having said this I am announcing the demise of the GYT&S RR at its current location and the move to new property about 38 miles from here in Salome AZ. It will be rebuilt bigger and better on 2 acres of land instead of 1. Also my neighbor is a G scaler and we will be combining our track to make a mainline of close to 4000 ft. I will continue to buy “More Power�, more rail and more rolling stock as long as I can. Because I believe that it is my God given right as an American to do so. I also believe this country will recover from this mess and continue to be the best place on this planet to live.
God bless America!
Ted
 
In the spirit of the times but with respect toward forum rules, I have decided to accelerate the evolution of my railroad. Currently, it has about 60% perennials with 40% annuals planted each year. In light of possible economic woes I have decided to plant more perennials so I won't have to keep buying more annuals each year!
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