Huge differences but in different areas...

You can have battery powered DCC control... in fact Airwire is just that, basically sending the exact modulation over 900 MHz.... (not a great idea).

But a true DCC system has a central contoller, called a "command station" by NMRA definition. These systems that use DCC communication without the command station give up a lot of features DCC has.

So there are a lot of differences, some subtle, some not, and a lot of people that don't really understand the differences, sometimes until it's too late.

There are 4 components in a DCC system, a power supply, a booster (which takes the low level signal and increases the current and voltage, the command station... SOME systems will allow DC input, some need AC, etc.

You NEVER connect the power supply directly to the rails (or the decoder) but it is routed through the booster to create the DCC signal/waveform, which is a square wave, of constant amplitude, modulated into 1's and 0's by the cycle width, and patterns of these produce "frames" which are the building blocks of the DCC commands.

That's the overview.

 

Thank you for the explanation, I really do have a lot to learn. I was visiting a local club yesterday and they have a large HO layout. The guys running trains were walking around with wireless controllers and I assumed that they were using an RC system. If I understand what you are saying, it was probably a wireless DCC system that is based on track power. For my application, I don't plan to utilize a lot of advanced features and I kind of like the idea of battery rather than track power. However, it sounds like I need to do a little more homework.

 

I have been battery powered(dead-rail) for 29 years and would never go back to track power. I can take my locomotives to any layout and run and the great thing is no rail cleaning to get power continuity. I started with AirWire which needs a decoder installed in the locomotive or a trailing car/tender if steam loco, a speaker if not already installed, a battery, a separate sound decoder and a hand held controller. A cheaper way to go is with RailPro or Blunami. With RailPro you still need a decoder but no separate sound decoder, a speaker, a battery and a controller. With Blunami it's even a little cheaper because you don't need a controller, it decoder is WiFi and can be controlled with any cell phone. If you have more questions you can message me on FaceBook for my number or E-mail me at trainslayer53@gmail.com.

 

There's a ton of pro's and con's

Unfortunately many people really don't know the subject but are absolutely convinced they do ha ha!

My standard answer: if you have over 3-5 locos, I think personally batteries are a pain in the butt.

But my requirements for running trains cancels battery power, so I run track power. The feature set and compatibility I want eliminates anything else.

I thought this through early on, and carefully explored the options. 20 years later, I'm still happy with my decision.

My decision is not for everyone of course, and clearly my goals are different.

I have 10 pages of beginners FAQs that really cover the whole hobby in "bite size" pieces...

Here's my page on "power" the eternal battery vs track power subject.

Choose your power

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

Greg

 

Good sumary Greg.
I would just add that even with nickel silver track, there is pollen and even resin (not to forget bird turds) which can seep off the trees that need periodic cleaning to ensure good running. This is a consideration in the case of runners who need to keep trees around their layout.
Also one advantage that Battery power would have over track power (I know because it is a case that I seriously considered) is that it would permit running battery-electric locos with live steam. As except for very few Asters (as far as I know the Chapelon, the Bavarian mallet and the 232 U1 and probably in narrow gauge) no steam locos are insulated. One of my friends (the same that sold me on giving up DCS) encouraged me to go for this, but I decided not to because: Too many electrics to equip. In any case very good advice for those getting into the hobby.

 

Thanks for the great information. After reading this, it would seem that I need to rethink my plans. For the last 40 years I have enjoyed this hobby through collecting equipment and an occasional temporary layout. My collection is not large, about 30 complete trains, but it has brought me a lot of happiness. Now that I am retired, I had a plan to build a permanent layout in my back yard. After reading the material above, I realize that I can't devote the time and money that it takes to do that the way I wanted. I also collect vintage sports cars and motorcycles and they also come with a significant commitment in both time and money. I still love my trains and I hope to continue to expand my collection. For me, temporary indoor layouts would seem to make more sense than a permanent outdoor layout that requires a high time commitment to do it properly. I keep my indoor layouts simple with one train on each track with separate power supplies for each. My old school DC track power has worked for 40 years and I can live with that. Thanks to everyone for the honest and very educational advice. I plan to continue following this site and I look forward to learning more about the hobby. If I win the lottery, I can always rethink the outdoor layout dream.

 

Reference track with pollen, etc, read my page on "track cleaning", I address this.

Basically I divide the common term into:

1. cleaning the surface of the rail, dirt, dust, tree sap, etc...
2. removing any oxides on the rails that affect conductivity

The important thing I bring forwards is that battery power eliminates #2, but not number 1. Battery power does not mean no cleaning, just less cleaning (and somewhat easier in some cases)

By the use of stainless steel rail myself, (and rail joiners) I have the same track maintenance as battery power. Explaining this is often an "ah hah" moment.

I find track ballasting and turnout maintenance are the two things I do the most, and that is independent of track or battery power.

Bottom line there are many ways to succeed, but when making the "fundamental" decision, many factors should be considered. For most people the ones that seem to be under appreciated is the true cost per loco, and difference in features desired (which do include run time).

 

An idea, not knowing your situation,that could give you cake and let you eat it it. If your garage or storage area for your classic vehicles would allow an overhead track for large radius trains, or a smaller layout in the space of 8x20 for small radius trains. Indoor would still require some track cleaning, but not as much. I just envision sitting in your classic vehicle, parked next to your layout inside with a wireless controller in hand.....

If you've been running DC and are completely happy with it, and not bothered by foregoing the capabilities the DCC could offer. You can go the straight RC route and have your battery and receiver in a trailing car that moves from loco to loco. (Minimal investment)The engines would only need to be modified to accept power from an external source. That input can be switched to allow the pick-ups to remain for conventional DC track powered operations.
This is how my children's electric engines are configured since I run Dead rail for my steam engines.

 

The idea of an overhead train in the garage is something that I have thought about for years. About a year ago, I got word that the local toy store where I saw an LGB train for the first time has moved away from trains and all of their old overhead layout is stored away. I am trying to confirm that and I have made some inquiries about purchasing what they have. It is a long shot, but I do love the hunt part of finding things. I have some foot surgery coming up in January and I am lining up projects to keep me busy during the recovery phase. I just finished two power supplies and I enjoyed getting back into doing a bit of wiring. It was a learning experience and I have been discovering some interesting results when I run sound cars using my homemade power supplies. Not all sound systems are the same for sure. I also have a couple of Bachmann engines that might be fun to experiment on when it comes to battery power. Not having an outdoor layout is a disappointment but not the end of my interest in the hobby. Old cars and model trains just seem to go well together. Thanks again everyone, I appreciate you folks taking the time to help a new guy with a lot of basic questions.

 

I have a friend who suspended a layout in his basement:

 

Before giving up in HO scale I built an entire appartment pike on the French ETAT railway system inside my small Paris appartment built just above my head. I had to climb on a big box (where I stored my art paper and cardboard for making stage set models). It wa an arround the wall pike with rather large curves in HO of around 3 foot 6 inches radius, scale rails including some bulhead track, and operated very well. I sold allmy HO when moving to our country house where my gauge one pike was situated, which is how I made up my stud of gauge one stock. Unfortunatly I have only a few very bad photos of it, here are a few:

JVR visited us and loved it because there were so many French compounds... That is how we became good friends, and he helped me make up that gauge one stud later on. I miss him a lot, he was very funny, he used to call the Daylights the flying tooth paste tube!
Cheers.

 

I am just thinking about options and I have always like the concept of a single line layout with reversing loops at each end. I should explain that I am not exactly the typical model railroad enthusiast. I am actually more interested in model railroads than real world railroads. Yes I am interested in real trains but I am more focused on the models. I have a long history of building large scale airplane and ship models. To me real trains are fascinating in a similar way that ships are fascinating. To me the idea of a giant piece of machinery that moves is just cool. When it comes to my trains, I tend to focus on the train itself and I don't build the scenery etc. I like the scenery, buildings, and the other accessories on a great layout. I just don't have the skill sets needed to do those things. Back to my thinking about what I might want to build next, the single line layout would work well for what I am visualizing in my house. In reading about automatic reversing loops, I came across the AZATRAX site. Has anyone here used their stuff? It looks like they offer a set of sensors and relays that make it possible to have automatic reversing loops at a reasonable cost.

 

In reading about automatic reversing loops,

If your locos are battery-powered, then you don't need auto-reverse gear.

 

LGB does reverse loops with a few simple additions to the turnouts and a magnet mounted under the engine. Won't get much cheaper than that unless you "roll your own" and they can be made to work with R/C/battery engines too (i.e., throw the turnouts so you don't have derailments).

 

Sorry, I did not mention that I am working with traditional track power.

 

Why go to the extra complication of a single line layout with reversing loops on each end when a folded dog bone would do the same without the extra complication of wiring the return loops, turnouts and operating limitation? (IE two trains heading for each other on the single track would require a passing siding to meet.)

 

I agree... usually the space constraints come from the loops at the ends, adding a parallel track "in the center" is often not too difficult.

But there are a lot of solutions. There are autoreversers that work on both DC and DCC should you want that option.

 

I understand the argument for two tracks vs reversing loops. In my case, one track would work better in the location that I am considering. As I said earlier, I am a simple guy and I do not run more than one train on each line. The concern about trains hitting head on is not a problem. I suspect that a a big part of my difficulty is in understanding the terminology. I have been reading about various reverse loop systems and watching videos about how to install them. while I find the theory interesting, I am just trying to find a list of what parts would be needed and a simple wiring diagram. I am not committed to doing anything at this point, I am just exploring options. I understand that everyone here has way more experience in this hobby than I do and I appreciate that you have taken the time to listen to me.

 

Todd's suggestion is the simplest one. Massoth makes a more "independent" unit fit for more complex operations, because Todd's suggestion needs to reverse the "main line" to suit the train as it exits. So if there is more than one train on the main line, it will reverse direction.

You said you "do not run more than one train on each line", but doing it the simplest way means you have basically turned the entire layout to one line. With all that track will you only run one train at a time? I'd think about expansion now, even if it is in the future. Having a plan for the future is good.

But bottom line, there are many solutions.

 

Thank you, as I said I am still in the planning phase and your advice makes sense. The Azatrax system looks simple to my novice mind. I have the track and turnouts and I looks like I could buy two of their sensor/controller units and one of the relays and that would work. If that is not the case, I can always rethink my choice for where the track would be in my shop. The overhead option could work, but that puts the train out of view when running. I keep reminding myself that this is a hobby and these are not life and death decisions. The objective is to have fun. If you folks are tired of my dumb questions just tell me. I am not trying to be a pain in the butt.

 

Nope keep 'em coming... if no one was interested, there would be no replies!

 

Thanks I appreciate the advice. I feel the same way on the old car forums If I can share my experience to help keep the hobby going it is a good thing.

 

Also Doc Dup1 do not forget that a modelrailroad can evolve, IE you might want to install the layout as a revers loop set up and then move on to a dog bone as you discover its limitations; Pentimento isn't just for painters; most of my layouts have had important rebuilding session over time. (Pentimento is an art term meaning when a painter reworks a painting sometime recoverng completly the original version)

 

So, when the OP says I'm using track power, I'm going to allow 3 posts about going battery power (and likewise for people using batteries).

Going on and on about battery power vs track is NOT helpful to the poster, nor the topic, or the helpfulness of the forum.

That's 2 battery is better posts...

Different strokes for different folks.

Greg

 

It occured to me that there is a simple way to let multiple trains run on a reversing loop set-up without those on the mainline changing direction. You would still need the rails to change polarity when the train is in the loop so that the train doesn't create a short when it comes out of the loop and has wheels both in the loop and on the mainline.

The solution is to simply put a bridge rectifier in each engine so that they only go forward regardless of the track current's direction. A DPDT switch would allow one to by-pass the rectifier when normal engine operation is desired. This could also save a lot of accidental crashes when one realizes that the engines will only go forward.

BTW, this is an original idea that just came to me that I've never seen executed anywhere. (Thanks for the challenge Greg. )

 

Yeah, that would work, nice idea.

(By the way DCC works because the polarity (really phase) of the AC signal does not matter to the decoder, so the reversing loop can change polarity, not the main line, as with most other DC autoreversers)

 

BTW, with the bridge rectifier fitted into the engine, one does not need to flip the polarity of the mainline affecting anything else that may be out there.

One only needs to flip the polarity of the loop section while the train is in there. The bridge rectifier will keep the train going in the same direction and when the polarity flips, the wheels both inside and outside of the loop will again be in "sync."