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The tightest curve on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad for example is 19 degrees. It is located on track 1 in Frostburg MD going into the turntable. That works out to a real-life 302ft radius, and about a scale 10ft radius.

The WM main line is more often about 6 degrees, which works out to a 955ft real-life radius and about 30 ft scale radius. I hope that my next layout can more or less abide by those upper and lower bounds.
 
Posted By bicyclexc on 07 Dec 2013 06:48 AM
The tightest curve on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad for example is 19 degrees. It is located on track 1 in Frostburg MD going into the turntable. That works out to a real-life 302ft radius, and about a scale 10ft radius.

The WM main line is more often about 6 degrees, which works out to a 955ft real-life radius and about 30 ft scale radius. I hope that my next layout can more or less abide by those upper and lower bounds.

Thanks for the comparison. I've always wondered just how our radius turns compared to the prototype. So, our 20 ft diameter curves are still quite sharp/tight compared to most standard gauge mainlines. The our 20 foot dia curves are probably more inline to what can be found on narrow gauge railroads.
 
My employer receives material by rail. The track to our property forms a "U" of slightly more than 180 degrees; using Google map, the diameter of the curve is 276 meters. That works out to 8.625 meter diameter in 1:32 scale, or over 14' radius - and this is a small switching siding.

The tight turn puts a lot of stress on the track, which sends the gauge out of alignment.

The "Altoona Curve" of the former PRR scales to 20.3 feet radius in 1:32 scale.
 
Posted By Reg Stocking on 06 Dec 2013 11:59 AM
Years ago I read somewhere that the minimum radius on the original narrow gauge Rio Grande line from Denver to Salt Lake City was 205 feet. In Fn3 this comes out almost exactly 10 feet. This is lovely if you have the room.

Also years ago I had a mentor who custom-built O scale locomotives and passenger cars. He gave me some rules about aesthetics. If you can see the outside rail from above when a passenger car is on a curve, the curve is too sharp. For full-length cars in American O scale (1:48), the minimum radius was 6 feet. In 1:32 this would be 9 feet. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Per Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum:

Posted by: Earl (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2010 09:35AM

"Sharpest curves on the D&RGW ng was 24 degrees. There was one mainline curve west of Monero at 24 degrees. The Chama-Alamosa line's maximum is 20 degrees. The Silverton Branch has several 24 degree curves. Wyes were laid out with a 24 degree maximum. The track profile I have dates from 1954 and doesn't show Marshall Pass, but I think there were some 24 degree curves up there too. The Baldwin spec sheet for 480's show a maximum curvature in road service of 24 degrees (at 25mph with a 6" super elevation!) with an "emergency" curvature of 30 degrees. I recall when the D&S started running 481 there was a tendency for the inside pilot truck wheel to lift off the rail on some of the 24 degree curves, so to get around a 30 degree curve, it would have to be REALLY good track. "

Per Stan's Handy Converter for Model Railroads, Version 16.0.0


1:1 Curvature (degrees) => Scale Radius
Degrees = Prototype 1:1 (100') = 1:20.3 = 1:32
19 degrees = 303" = 15' 0" = 9' 6"
20 degrees = 288' = 14' 2" = 9' 0"
24 degrees = 240' 6" = 11' 11" = 7' 6"
30 degrees = 193' 2" = 9' 6" = 6' 0"
 
Ya all know I'm at the other end of the spectrum...ha!!

Put for conversation here, since it has turned to prototypical sizes....

On my Fn3 I have some of these...

17ft. R = 345' R
15ft. R = 304.5' R
40ft. R = 812' R

And for the 1/29th crowd....

Mainline minimum....
45ft. R = 1305'
....others include...
50ft. R = 1450' R
55ft. R = 1595' R
60ft. R = 1740' R
75ft. R = 2175' R
100ft. R = 2900' R

I foresee some curves on sidings being as tight as 10-12' R, while most will be more in the 13'-18' R ranges..
These may require a smaller road switcher or local engine to spot cars, from and to a place they can be reached by a thru freight.

Dirk - DMRR & DMS Ry.
Running on the Lordsburg sub, UPRR
 
I have 2 acres of wonderfully flat land that used to be vineyard; 165' x 545'. So I was planning on an 80' radius by 270' radius layout. One lift gate at the driveway entrance. I call it my irrational curvature layout.
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A few things come to mind contemplating my future layout and those above;

I think we've reached the point of diminishing returns.
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It's not how big it is it's how you use it.
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Bigger is not always better.
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Better always seems bigger.
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This is an arms race in layout size.
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Someone's layout somewhere will always be bigger than yours.
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Rationally, what size layout triggers conversion to a larger scale & gauge ?
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Just sayin'
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I'd see the "sweet spot" of radius to be that which is visually a reasonable match to the prototype being modeled. Large mainline locomotives and cars look so much better (to me) on sweeping, wide radius turns. Having every curve the radius representative of the absolute minimum a train at low speed can negotiate, by a model running at mainline speed, looks silly.

The upper limit would be the point at which I can't see the train from one end of the railway to the other.

About 12 foot is the largest I can comfortably fit in my back yard, retaining walking / mowing access to both sides, though I expect to start with shorter narrow gauge prototypes.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Thanks, Guys, for all your help. (And it got into an interesting discussion of prototype practice
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) My main focus was an attempt to figure out if I might attempt a tighter curve for a live steam radius than the 9' minimum I've got already (and most of the curves are 10'). Looks like I'd be courting trouble to try 8'6", so I'll stick with what I've got.

I'm actually designing two loops, roughly, one above the other but staggered on a slope (think of a wedding cake that's slipped over. I'm trying to connect the two with a 'transition' track that achieves a 24" rise with a resultant 2% grade. So, dsince somebody has already posted a question about a 10% grade (whew!) I'll head over there and ask y'all what you think of a 2% grade!
 
For my next indoor layout in 1:20.3 I plan to use 4 foot radius, which is 8ft diameter. Why? First, all of the locomotives I plan to accumulate aren't that large. Second, it's inside so I can't go much larger. However I should note that both of my current locomotives are 0-4-0 type, but late on I may go up to something like a 2-6-0.

For what you're doing outside, the general idea is to have a large of radius as possible, or practically possible. The one problem with this idea is that if I had a 20' by 20' space, I would then have a 10' radius curve to make a large circle. But if you are only running smaller locomotives, that large of a radius is unnecessary.

So what to do? For me it is about finding a happy medium that is both adequate for the locomotives but doesn't eat up too much space. Obviously what works for you depends on you situation. If you like running live steam, it would be wise to have a large radius so that the engines don't encounter too much resistance and hinder their performance.

For what you do for radius will depend completely on what you run. If wanting big boys on the layout, I can imagine it would be pretty big though :)

Best of luck!

--James
 
Radius isn't the only aspect of track planning for instance there is also switch angle or size I use exclusively N°8 points or over because we europeans run engines and cars with buffers, under that size you will have buffer lock on the reverse curve. A minimum radius often found on engine terminal trackageand on wyes or interchange tracks on prototype railroads is around 11'6" radius, as John Armstrong used to explain in Model Railroader magazine, every engine or just about, can negociate that at very restricted speeds. My Accucraft T1, which is probably the longest rigid wheelbase engine you can find, negociates that. The beauty of Johns philosophy is that if real engines pass through those kinds of curves, gingerly, because the side play in real engines is practically identical to the one in our models (that is: not scaled down) and there aren't the dynamic forces that come into play with real size locos, ours can negociate these types of curves at cruizing speed. This is real good news to us modelers. however I can confirm from more than 30 years of operation in the garden, these kinds of curves do offer a big rolling resistance to the train. So bigger is adviseable. Also another important factor to consider in layout planning is the size of your sidings and yards. As long as I was modeling continental trains, an 8-9 meters siding was a going proposition, I could fit a7 coach passenger train in it when most pacifics handled 8 and about 25 continental size freight cars. Going american (and Pennsy to boot) means 40', 50' up to 70' freight cars and up to hundreds of them. Suddenly my siding looked ridiculously short... On the other hand I confirm that one has to keep things in reason very large layouts means that your train starts to look like N gauge once they are far away. And depending on your climate the maintenance can easely get out of hands. my track is about 50 meters in circumference. Because of my US modeling, I am contemplating replacing the 11'6" curve by one of17'6" radius which should lengthen the main to around 60 or so meters. But I will also lengthen a siding considerably. The larger the curve and the pointwork the smoother the operation and the better trains look, this is the most important factor for me. When I look at some videos of GG 1 or big boys going over some 4foot cuves it makes me sick. These weren't rapid transit equipment at all. So why have them run on rapid transit type of right of way? If you must use that type of curves go narrow gauge or Rapid transit. Especially out of doors. I mean that, after years of beying limited by the size of indoor space available to my hobby, coming out of doors was like discovering freedom after years in jail. There are limitations out of doors also, my terrain for instance is on an average ten percent gradient: Too steep to climb. But I took advantage of that to have the track at ground level on one side and at table top height on the other. Great for manual controling of our steamers, on the fly. Think and plan carefully, you will be happier on the long run.
 
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