[East Broad Top]

The Prototype



In 1908, #7 underwent another "mandatory" cosmetic overhaul. It was in the paint shop (ostensibly being repainted) when the paint shop caught fire, burning completely to the ground. Number 7 was badly damaged in that fire. As a result, the EBT ordered a new steel cab from Baldwin to replace the one lost in the fire.

It was also in 1908 that the EBT began modernizing its locomotive fleet, beginning with 2-6-2 #11, followed by the first of their iconic 2-8-2s in 1911. That modernization (and the vastly improved tractive effort and handling) rendered #7 surplus, so the EBT sold it (and sister 4-6-0 #10) to the Ohio River & Western RR in 1913.

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Enter Barry's Big Trains. I've long heard of Barry's drives and their fantastic reputation, but it wasn't until I built EBT #3 from one of his 2-8-0 conversion drives that I had firsthand experience. Following that with working on two other locos with his chassis, and installing his replacement gearbox in my Bachmann 2-8-0, I quickly decided that I could spend my time fussing over building a suitable chassis myself in hopes that it was as smooth as one of his, or just send him the plans, write him a check and have him build me a custom chassis. So after a few months e-mailing back and forth to make sure everything was proper, that's what arrived in my mailbox. The drivers--at 36" are technically a scale inch too small, but considering I'm modeling the loco c. 1912, shortly before it was sold, the drivers would have been turned on the wheel lathe probably numerous times, reducing the diameter.

The next issue--what to do about the valve gear. Barry's drive provided the side rods, but everything else I'd have to fend for myself. As luck would have it, I had a "donor locomotive" sitting on the shelf. This was in the form of my old Tuscarora RR #2. Truth be told, I never really liked how that loco turned out. There was always something aesthetically "off" with it, though I couldn't figure out what. When I built my "modern" version of that loco, its proportions were much more appealing, so "old" #2 got stuffed up on the shelf awaiting new sound and control systems when finances allowed. So I did some measuring, and discovered that the valve gear on old #2 was almost dimensionally identical to the valve gear on #7. Add to that the need for fluted domes (which #2 had) and cylinders and crossheads (which were identical to #2) and it became clear that "old" Tuscarora RR #2 would soon sacrifice herself for the greater good.

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This is the progress so far. I wrapped 3/32" cork around the smokebox, and will wrap embossed styrene sheet around that to bring the smokebox to the proper diameter. The firebox is roughed in at the back end, and will get laminated with embossed styrene for that end, too. The tender, likewise, needs embossed styrene laminated onto it. The black tubing for the smokestack, headlight, and front pilot are just placeholders to get a feel for the overall aesthetics. The'll be replaced by proper bits and pieces as time allows.

Further bulletins as progress warrants...

Later,

K

 

[joe rusz]

Dang! Now I'm really depressed. I have yet to even paint one of my locos and you're already building your???? fifth, sixth? You are one prolific modeler, Kevin. Nice work too.

 

[bnsfconductor]

Kevin,
For your tender and other areas that are riveted why not try out those new rivet decal sets that micro-mark and others are now producing. It might be a good way to test them for the rest of us? Just a thought.
Are you modeling a wood cab, or the steel replacement cab?

Craig

 

[Pete Thornton]

Nice work Kevin. My #7 refit / backdate of D&RGW C-19 #34x (I've forgotten) is certainly spinning off a lot of unused fancy brass parts. But they will come in useful someday. I did have to swap tenders for a smaller one though. With Alec hard at work on a #7 too, we'll have 3 models running next year (?)

why not try out those new rivet decal sets
I emailed to ask about using them for my EBT M-1 (which has 1000+ rivets per side.) They can make them wide enough, but not very tall. Here's what Archer Fine Transfers told me: "We can do .062 diameter but are limited to .005 height". 0.005" high is a very flat rivet, unfortunately.

 

[bnsfconductor]

Posted By Pete Thornton on 08 Dec 2011 09:24 AM

I emailed to ask about using them for my EBT M-1 (which has 1000+ rivets per side.) They can make them wide enough, but not very tall. Here's what Archer Fine Transfers told me: "We can do .062 diameter but are limited to .005 height". 0.005" high is a very flat rivet, unfortunately.

Pete,
That's good to know that the decals are only .005" high. I was wondering myself how much of a 'decal' they were compared to a traditional embossed rivet head. Sounds like decal manufacturers are on the right track, but give them a few more years to work the bugs out and make them 'pop out' more! Having never attempted to make embossed rivets yet, what's the 'normal' height? .010"?


Craig

 

[East Broad Top]

I looked at those rivet decals, but (a) they seemed geared more towards O scale and smaller, (b) they're decals, and I hate decals. (Did I mention my 6-year-old daughter can do water-slide decals better than me? No joke--she got a beading set for her birthday, and included were large beads that you could put letter decals on. She had the jar of water and was cutting the things out and having them stick perfectly every time. I fully expect her to know my iPhone better than me, but this was just humiliating...)

But more than both those reasons, there's a MUCH better tool for the job.

Micro-Mark Emboss-it Tool

And, it's on sale for $23! (Plus another $20 for more rivet dies that you'll need because the one that comes included is really too small for use in large scale.) Still, it'll rank high in the "best money spent for a tool" category. It's designed to work with their punch ($67), but I just set everything up on my drill press and use that instead. I think if I were to be doing a lot of embossing, I'd spring for the punch only to save me having to set the drill press up every time, but for now it's not a big deal.

Here's the Emboss-It set up on my drill press. It's essentially a sliding table next to a punch and die pair. You mount your styrene or brass sheet to the table, then use the knob to move the table in however small increments you need to move it. The rivets in this photo are set at .150" centers (3 spins of the knob). The "#5" punch and die that's mounted is the largest they make, and makes a rivet that's .050" diameter (1" in 1:20.3).

Of course, the problem with modeling in large scale isn't so much making sure you have the right number of rivets, it's making sure they're the right shape. Here, I'm using a scratch awl to punch the centers of the firebox stays. I embossed them with the rivet embossing tool, then I used the awl to "pop" them.

The finished firebox sheet attached to the boiler. The rivets along the edges are on .070" centers; the stays are .300" on center.

And how it compares to the "prototype," or as close to the prototype as I can get--C-19 #346 that's out at the Colorado RR museum. (Yeah, my spacing on the stays should have been closer together...)

Next step--fill in the open spaces at the front of the firebox, then turn my attention to the smokebox...

Later,

K

 

[bnsfconductor]

Kevin,
Thanks for the info about the rivet dies and the Emboss-it. They have been on my wish list for a while too.

Craig

 

[jake3404]

Very nice Kevin. Great idea about the emboss-it. I always thought you had to have their press for it to work. I didnt realise you could adapt it to another drill press. Dang I just out and order in at Micro-Mark and it is suppose to be here today. But, I'd really like that emboss-it... I may have to check with the head accountant and see if I can garner a trade out for services (ie. something she wants me to build for her).

 

[Pete Thornton]

Thanks for the tip Kevin. Unfortunately I already told the kids what to buy me for Xmas!

I already have an X-Y table for my drill, so I suspect I just need the embossing tools.



what's the 'normal' height? .010"?
It depends on the size of the rivet, of course.

They are almost hemispherical. Here's a neat photo of the side of M-1 showing the protruding rivets. They are 1.25" diameter, so they must stick out at least 1/2", or 25 thou (0.025") in Fn3 scale.

 

[East Broad Top]

I thought about using an X-Y table, because I like the 2-dimensional aspect, but the problem is that both the punch and die need to remain stationary. You'd have to work well off to the side of the table to get any kind of "Y" movement in addition to the "X" movement. The one addition to my embosser will be to overlay a grid on the table with 0.1" marks on it to keep things lined up as you reset the workpiece for each row of rivets. Allison's got these semi-adhesive mats she uses for her Cricut cutting tool which should work wonderfully for that. Just press the styrene down and the mat's adhesive enough to hold it in place without tape. Then just peel it off when you're done with that pass, reposition, and have at it again. I'll definitely do that before I attack the tender...

Later,

K

 

[Pete Thornton]

Posted By East Broad Top on 09 Dec 2011 09:54 AM
I thought about using an X-Y table, because I like the 2-dimensional aspect, but the problem is that both the punch and die need to remain stationary. You'd have to work well off to the side of the table to get any kind of "Y" movement in addition to the "X" movement. The one addition to my embosser will be to overlay a grid on the table with 0.1" marks on it to keep things lined up as you reset the workpiece for each row of rivets. Allison's got these semi-adhesive mats she uses for her Cricut cutting tool which should work wonderfully for that. Just press the styrene down and the mat's adhesive enough to hold it in place without tape. Then just peel it off when you're done with that pass, reposition, and have at it again. I'll definitely do that before I attack the tender...

Later,

K

I was only planning to use the X axis . .

P.S. I discovered my inkjet printer will print on (thin) styrene. It has a straight paper path - in fact I chose it for that. The ink rubs off but you can use it for positioning rivets, etc., if you have a decent drawing. I think there's a thread around here about making rivetted corner plates for my H&C hopper.

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Too, too cool! It's always a pleasure to see your builds, and very educational!

I'm considering getting that rivet punch but don't know how useful it would be without a drill press.

 

[armorsmith]

Ray,

I am sure it would work well with a small bench top drill press available at any of the big box stores for about $100.00. I used one of those for a number of years before my wife found a great deal on a floor stand one. I am sure Harbor Freight might have one as well.

Bob C.

 

[East Broad Top]

Progress update:

Firebox:

A little bit of plumber's putty fills in the gaps at the front of the firebox to give it a smooth contour. Technically, the firebox should slip underneath the lagging, but as luck would have it, the running boards on this loco are right even with where the lagging comes down over the firebox, so that intersection will be hidden.

I had some extra plumber's putty left over, and I decided the Trackside Details headlight I had bought for this loco wasn't quite "right." So a little bit of putty, and a surplus Bachmann "electric" headlight has begun its backdating to a kerosene headlight. Still gotta do the top of the chimney and some other details, but the putty part's done.

I also decided the Bachmann sand dome was just too narrow when compared to the prototype. So I used a steam dome off of an Aristo-Craft C-16 boiler I had sitting surplus. I cut the top off of the dome, and replaced it with a brass sand dome cap that came from my scrap box. The base of the dome is cut from the orignial C-16 boiler, and sanded to fit the larger diameter boiler.

I turned the smokestack from PVC sprinkler system parts. The core of the stack is a 1/2" ID x 4" riser, and the cap and base are turned from threaded couplings. Unfortunately, the threaded parts were tapered, so I couldn't get them to go on tight without some threads left showing, so I had to turn them on the lathe to get them to fit snugly. Then I glued the base and cap to the core, chucked the whole thing in the lathe, and turned it to shape. I got "lucky" on the base in that it had these little bumpouts molded into the plastic, which were perfect for the screws that will hold the stack to the smokebox. They may end up being cosmetic if I can't find long-enough screws. In that case, I'll have to come up with "plan B" for attaching the stack; likely an inner sleeve tube through the smokebox PVC that the stack slides over. My plan is to put an MTH or Massoth pulsed smoke unit in this loco if only for the fun of doing it. I don't know that I'd run it all that often, but I'd love to have something like that installed on one of my sparkies just for show.

The smokebox door is done, too. The door itself is two sheets of .090" styrene laminated together for a total height of .18", then turned on the lathe. I used a regular cutting bit to get the basic shape roughed out, then went in with a file and sandpaper to smooth things out. Perhaps a bit unorthodox in terms of "proper" lathe usage, but hey--it works.

This is the template I used to cut the front of the smokebox. Holes were drilled on the first ring for the nut-bolt castings on the front. Since there are only 6 smokebox door "dogs," I just used a protractor from the center to locate them once everything was assembled. The number plate will go on once everything's finished.

Ordinarily, I'd just use small hex-head bolts to attach the smokebox front to the boiler, but because there's a layer of cork around the core PVC pipe that forms the boiler, that would move the screws too far in to where I couldn't hide them. So I used some 2" acrylic tubing to make a "plug" that fits inside the PVC pipe, and I'll attach that from the side of the smokebox. The yellow tape is there to make for a snug fit between the two pipes. (Naturally, neither the 2" ID PVC pipe nor the 2" OD acrylic pipe are exactly 2"...)

Next step will be the front pilot, then I'll attach the boiler to the chassis and start working my way back with fittings, running boards, etc. My biggest issue right now is trying to work out how I'm going to attach the cab to the loco. Logic says to attach the floor of the cab to the frame, since there's the brake details and other do-dads associated with the chassis hanging off of it. That would make sense because that way I can build that rigging, and then just leave it attached as part of the chassis when it comes to painting or maintenance. (I'm hoping never to have to actually open the chassis again; that's why I had Barry build it for me.) However, that would require me to work out how to support the front of the cab via the chassis, since on the prototype, it appears to be hung off the boiler. I'll probably do a cardboard mock-up of the cab and play around with various ideas for attaching it.

That's the latest from the shops for now...

Later,

K

 

[alecescolme]

Nice work Kevin, that new sand dome certainly looks better.
I was wondering how you were going to do the smoke box front. I suppose using the cutting wheel holder in a Dremel might also work.


Alec

 

[Mike Reilley]

Great building thread Kevin...a lot of techniques discussed. I'd never thought of using a sprinkler part...very interesting.

 

[East Broad Top]

And the race is on!!!

Bachmann just announced their C-19, due out in October. That gives me three months.

Here's where things stand currently (well, I've finished the cab walls since this photo was taken--have to get a pic of that.) The locomotive itself is pretty much ready for plumbing and finishing touches. The tender needs its rivet-embossed sides done and final detailing. I've got the electronics for it (Airwire/Phoenix), though I'm also contemplating putting a fan-driven smoke unit in this one with the new QSI Titan. I can swap control systems out pretty easily, so we'll play that one by ear. Gotta get the loco finished first.

Running board hangers, bent from brass bar stock and screwed into the boiler. Hangers were salvaged from TRR #2, hence why I'm using 0-80 hex-head bolts to hold the running boards in place. Otherwise I would have drilled smaller holes and used small pins bent over on the underside to hold the boards in place.

The running boards, just sitting on the hangers. I made these from styrene. Often I'll make them from wood, but with styrene, I can run the loco in the rain, or through the garden after a rain/watering and not worry about water pooling and warping the wood. Not that it's a huge issue on the locos as it is on the rolling stock, but by the time it's painted, you'll never know the difference anyway, so why not go weatherproof?

Hanger fabricated to support the cab floor.

The backhead and cab floor are one assembly, held in place by a friction fit into the rear of the boiler, similar to the smokebox front. The floor will get screwed to the hangers, then the cab attached to the cab floor, sliding over the boiler from above.

Boiler backhead and cab floor in place on the locomotive.

Ashpan and Eames Vacuum brake detail. The ashpan is bent up from brass, drilled with lots of little holes. (Did I mention it's nice having D&RGW #346 a mere 40-minute drive away for inspiration?) Of course, it's got air brakes and plumbing this loco didn't, but for overall structure, it's a great resource.)

Next step, go in and clean the workshop so I can again function in there. My son got in there one morning and managed to empty my big box of Dremel bits all over the floor, along with a bunch of stuff from my scrap box. Sigh... Haven't been able to be productive in there since, so a proper going-through is in order before I can finish this project. Gotta get it buttoned up this summer, though--not just because Bachmann introduced theirs, but because I've got an ever-growing list of other projects that will want to get done, and it's high time I actually finish one of the projects sitting on my shelf.

Later,

K

 

[alecescolme]

Nice work Kevin, I also need to get back to my #7. I am going to use a milling machine to a real open frame for mine.

Alec

 

[East Broad Top]

Bring it on, Bachmann!!!

Okay, not really, I'm in no competition, but progress has been made! EBT #7 is ready for the paint shop. I just the model fares better than the prototype did 104 years ago.

Quite frankly, despite the announcement of Bachmann's C-19, this project sat a bit stalled in my workshop. I got the cab together, but that's where it sat for probably a few months. (The cab structure was done prior to my earlier update, but I didn't have photos of it.) Then about a month or so ago, I walked into Caboose Hobbies, where they had a clearance shelf. On that shelf was a box of large scale detail parts from Precision Scale, Trackside Details, Ozark, Hartford, and some obscure ones that I hadn't seen in years. I haven't a clue where they came from, but they were there for sale for pennies on the dollar.

Included in that parts box was a Precision Scale 1:24 K-27 cowcatcher. Now, EBT #7 always had a wood cowcatcher, and it always had a wood one on the OR&W as well. But evidently, subconsciously, the thought of scratchbuilding a proper wood cowcatcher must have been holding up progress, because when I saw this, it sparked something and I immediately wanted to get back working on this project again. (I've scratchbuilt a number of wood cowcatchers, mind you, it's just that for some reason I didn't want to for this one.) So it and about $80 worth of other detail parts landed in my basket and I was off to the workshop. So for the time being, EBT #7 will have a metal cowcatcher. Since no known photos have come to light of #7 after the fire but before being sold to the OR&W, I'm calling it good. If I ever get the fire to build a proper wood one, it's just 4 screws to remove it.

The Accucraft 1:32 coupler pocket got some styrene detailing added to it to make it look more like a cast coupler pocket. The lift bar is .035" mig welding wire I got from Harbor Freight. Good, stiff stuff, but easy to bend to shape. That, and I'll probably never empty that spool.

After doing a bunch of research on the C-19s, and using the Quick-Pic book (BHI Publishing) as a guide, I discovered that the throttle valve on these extends out of the base of the steam dome on top of the boiler jacket to the backhead. It just blends into the boiler in photos, so I've never noticed it before (this despite being in the cab of #346 on numerous occasions.) So that was added, and while you can't see it in this photos, the throttle lever in the cab connects to it.

The injectors were also in that clearance parts box, so they got used. Why the railroad put them outside the cab when there appears to have been plenty of room inside the cab for them, I don't know. The EBT fitted reach rods to the injectors so they could be operated from inside. Maybe it was a maintenance thing, I don't know.

I had some fun with the cab detailing on this loco. While I know there's probably at least 40 feet of piping I didn't model, I think I got most of the basic stuff, at least on a conjectural "good enough from 2' away to be somewhat realistic" level. I even went so far as to model the lines going to the gauges (steam pressure and vacuum). The "fun" part of this was trying to figure out how the Eames vacuum brakes were plumbed. Most early diagrams of the Eames systems had a large, vertical pipe with a "muffler" of sorts extending through the cab roof. This was an early hallmark of the Eames brakes, and can be clearly seen in the first photo in this thread. That feature disappeared in later photos, nor was it present on other Eames-equipped locomotives. After some digging, I discovered that the "ejector"--the device that controls the vacuum, thus the brakes--went through a pretty radical design change at some point, to where it then looked more like a water injector, and exhausted through the smokebox via a long pipe. That explained the piping on the side of the smokebox (the opposite side is, I believe, the blower). The "insulation" on the steam pipes in the cab is first aid tape. The color's perfect straight off the role, but I'll just paint this stuff rather than re-wrap everything once the loco is painted.

One advantage of having #346 so close is that I can take a look and see how the prototype was likely constructed since they were built to the same Baldwin drawings. The firebox and ashpan details are very much drawn from #346. The bike-chain-looking supports hold the boiler to the frame. They're designed to move back and forth as the boiler expands with heat. And yes, I was crazy enough to model the cotter pins that hold the supports to the pins. The vacuum brake cylinders are very prominent on the rear of the cab. Originally, they were mounted parallel to the rails, but later changed to this vertical mounting. The linkage is hard to see in photos, so I used my best guess as to how it likely worked.

The cab is built from a .100" styrene core, laminated with .010" styrene sheet embossed with the rivet detail. The roof is permanently attached to the walls, but the way the plumbing is run, it can lift off with only a few pipes needing to be removed first. The edging on the roof is half-round styrene strip, and the gutters are tubing that was cut in half. The roof rivet pattern, again, is guesswork, but when someone shows me a photo that proves it's wrong, I'll thank them profusely. (Such is the case in a lot of my modeling where references are all but impossible to find.)

The tender is fairly straightforward. If you've ever read the masterclass series, it's built pretty much right along those lines. The frame is styrene, with the tender shell built from .100" sheet laminated with--in this case--.015" sheet (because I was out of .010")

I mentioned this tool in an earlier post, but--seriously--it bears mentioning again. If you're going to do rivets like this, you owe it to yourself to get one of these things. Good grief what a timesaver! It still took me nearly 3 hours to emboss all the tender rivets, but there's no other way you're going to get such consistent spacing and shapes to the rivets. Believe me, I've tried.

Of course, should a few of those rivets for some inexplicable reason come out deformed, do what the railroad did--patch it! It sure beats punching a new sheet.

The embossed sheets are stuck onto the tender frame with 2-sided tape. I get it at Michael's, Hobby Lobby, or similar. I've really become fond of this stuff--it's a lot better than using solvent cement. You stick it to the surface, then peel the orange plastic off, leaving the second sticky side exposed. Line things up and press down. Note: make sure you're lined up before you press down. Once it's stuck, it does not like to become unstuck, and the thin laminate sheet will tear. Not something you want to have happen after you've embossed hundreds of rivets into the sheet.

The tender steps are Ozark miniatures. If you look closely, you'll see a small pin between the cast-on nut detail. That's to hold the steps onto the tender. I've used these in the past, and ain't no glue strong enough to hold these things in place on its own. One knock from a rock, twig, or whatever, and the step is broken away. The pin will hold things in place, and should blend right in once everything's painted. The coupler pocket on the tender is from an Accucraft 1:20 coupler. I'm using the 1:32 draft gear, but cut away the top and sides of the coupler box so this could sit over it.

The water hatch is an Ozark casting. The coal boards are conjectural. The EBT never used them, at least not along the side of the tender; just along the back to separate the coal from the water hatch area. However, when the EBT ordered a new cab for this loco following the paint shop fire, the cab was a bit taller than the original one. The aesthetic of the low tender and the tall cab didn't look right to me. The OR&W gave the loco a new tender, which looks much more proportionate to the height of the cab. Maybe it's just looking at that combination in so many photos that set my eyes to want to see a particular proportion between engine and tender, I don't know. Of course, the railroads didn't care nearly as much about aesthetics as we modelers tend to, but I've got to look at this loco on my shelf and like looking at it, so it's gettin' the side boards as well. I may yet decide not to include them on the final model, we'll see. Since they'll be unpainted wood, they'll be among the last detailes added after the painting and weathering anyway. Plenty of time to change my mind.

The tender tank is designed to lift off of the frame, so I can get to the electronics and swap out batteries. I've not yet solidified which control system I'm going to use in this loco. With the new Titans on the market, I'm half inclined to try that, and get fancy with a smoke unit, etc. If I do that, I may move the electronics to the boiler (currently completely empty) and just use the tender for batteries and a big honkin' speaker. Again, plenty of time to make that call.

From here, it's off to the paint shop. Hopefully I'll be able to get time to do that before winter sets in. I've got a bunch of projects I have to get out of the way first before I start painting, so I'm likely about 3 weeks from having time to do anything. I'm planning on painting it like my other EBT locos--dark olive green on the cab, domes, and tender, with a planished iron boiler jacket. There are no accounts of this loco after the fire, and I'm really not sure what a fire that burned pretty much every last piece of wood on the locomotive would have done to a plannished iron jacket. Maybe the railroad would have just painted everything at that point, I can't say. If that was the case, it's likely the loco would have been bathed in black paint from head to toe, so that's an option as well. But I'm thinking if for no other reason than consistency, I'll stick with my original plan.

Further bulletins as events warrant.

Later,

K

 

[lownote]

MArvelous work, and a lot of great ideas to steal--thank you!