https://picasaweb.google.com/114036153408224749848/Diamondhead2013#5834378516732574450 Posted By GaugeOneLines on 18 Jan 2013 05:37 PM
Been checking in fairly regularly and am very disappointed at what one gets to see on the 'big track'. What I can't get over is how nobody seems to give their locomotive a decent length train to make the thing work. Great big engines be they SG or NG with 4,5 or 6 box cars on the draw bar, just doesn't put lead in my pencil..........come on lads, how about some proper trains instead of these anemic short jobs, or even worse engines running light. Is anybody running anything NOT from Aster or Accucraft, anything like scratchbuilt?
David M-K
Ottawa

DMK

You cannot see all the cars but this AC6 is pulling 12 cars:

AC6 & GS4

Custom engine

I think this locomotive and train counts.....custom build and more than 5 car:


SP Steam power

 

As a person who does not have a LS loco, the trains look short, but hanging around live steam guys, they have their hands full normally with keeping the loco running and fed. You see derailments too. I see a lot of people just run the locos themselves.

So, I can understand why most trains are short, or non-existent. If I was deep into this aspect of the hobby, I'd have R/C of all the tweaks and see if I could run the loco the same distance the prototype did... maybe 2 hours solid running? Have to see what that is, heard many trains ran about 100 miles at a time.

Also, not sure that the pulling power of the average LS model matches the prototype.


Greg

 

David,

You need to keep in mind a couple of things. The first is that even the new tracks do accumulate steam oil and so long trains are tough to keep moving. Second is that most people don't bring a bunch of cars with them to DH so it can be hard to find enough cars to make a decent train -- or at least it has been in years past. Last year though we did manage to put together a decent train once or twice for the Challenger prototype.

As for your inquiry about scratch built locomotives, virtual all that I have seen at DH are smaller ones that normally run on one of the smaller tracks. Of course, a couple of notable exceptions are the K-27 and C-25? brought by David Bailey in years past.

Ross Schlabach

 

Greg, my experience with watching live steam has been very different. At Dr. Rivets steam ups most trains at the NG weekends are between 5 and 15 cars. On the SG weekends there are SP daylights with 18 cars and freight trains with many cars. There are many videos here showing anything but short trains running at his stream ups. Once I was out there and someone with a Live Steam Allegheny pulled my string in 32 iron ore cars. Travel to a meet like DH may require bringing shorter consists. Not all live steam runs are with short consists. Chuck

 

Here is a movie of one on Rod Blakeman's photo page that's pulling a decent length train:
http://tinyurl.com/bgu2svt
I hope that he won't mind me putting a link to it.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada

 

Depending on what the local hobbyists bring to the meet will determine the opportunity for any given consist along with the size of the portable track. For example at the NSS{

 

Chuck, I'm unfortunately going by what I see at DH, and what I see at the shows I attend, WGH, GTE, Big Train show, and the SWGRS....

I realize I am not at anyone's home, where it's most likely more convenient to bring more cars, and the trackwork may be better.

One thing I am curious about... has anyone studied if these locos can pull prototype weight trains on prototype grades? I realize the extra difficulty of control on running on grades probably makes people want water level track.

Greg

 

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Jan 2013 07:47 PM
Chuck, I'm unfortunately going by what I see at DH, and what I see at the shows I attend, WGH, GTE, Big Train show, and the SWGRS....

I realize I am not at anyone's home, where it's most likely more convenient to bring more cars, and the trackwork may be better.

One thing I am curious about... has anyone studied if these locos can pull prototype weight trains on prototype grades? I realize the extra difficulty of control on running on grades probably makes people want water level track.

Greg Greg
I doubt that anyone in gauge one with Standard gauge equipment would attempt 1:1 grade such as:
the steepest operating mainline grade in the USA was the 4.7% Saluda Grade south of Asheville, North Carolina.

Yet, at Dr. Rivet's layout there is a .6% grade (if I recall priority) and our locomotives can do this:

While running on empty (fuel thus loss of steam power) along with stopping and restart on grade" pulling a full train up the grade. The next clip that follows is the GS4 at speed taking on the grade.

 

Greg, since I do not run live steam I cannot answer your specific question. My experience with electric locomotives shows that the tractive effort for them is about 1/3 the weight of the engine. I would not think that the live steamers are much different. There can be the problem with steam oil residue on the track, but it has not effected my AristoCraft mallet pulling 32 ore cars, a battery car and caboose on the same track while they are running. Dr Rivet's layout has a 0.6% grade at one point. This does not present any problems for most trains. I think that they can pull as prototypical trains as those of us who use electrons. Chuck

 

The live steam fraternity seems to have a different view on freight cars than does the electric crowd..
im not sure why exactly..probably because the locomotives themselves are the main "focus" of the live steam hobby..
live steamer hobbiests everywhere are much more likely to run their locomotives by themselves, or with very short trains..

At steamups, it is quite normal and common to see a locomotive chugging around the track with nothing attached to it..
but you almost never see that at a display of electric large scale trains..there you always see full trains along with the locomotive..
at steamups, you do see full trains occasionally, but not all the time..

Usually, people will get their locomotive steamed up, (a process in itself) while its on the track by itself..then once its up to steam, they let it run..
sometimes people do add cars..sometimes not..the freight cars are often just an afterthought..
the locomotives are the main focus of the live-steam hobby..
just one of those things! just different ways of doing things..its not right or wrong, it just is.

Scot

 

Scot

I have to disagree with you as to running trains at Standard Gauge meets. I have over 100 videos of meets it is rare to find a locomotive running stag. Except for situations of foul weather, testing a locomotive or limited trackage or due to travel restrictions will there be a"short" rake of cars. While we admire our locomotives, I do not think a track time would be much more than a run out of the yard and back without the cars behind the engine. Seems that someone is always well prepared with making a complete train at the meets (either passenger or freight). At least that is our experience at our steam ups.

 

Posted By Charles on 18 Jan 2013 08:42 PM
Scot

I have to disagree with you as to running trains at Standard Gauge meets. I have over 100 videos of meets it is rare to find a locomotive running stag. Except for situations of foul weather, testing a locomotive or limited trackage or due to travel restrictions will there be a"short" rake of cars. While we admire our locomotives, I do not think a track time would be much more than a run out of the yard and back without the cars behind the engine. Seems that someone is always well prepared with making a complete train at the meets (either passenger or freight). At least that is our experience at our steam ups.



Interesting! my experience at steamups is the opposite..
sure, there are often trains..just not all the time..and not as often as you would think, if you werent used to seeing live steam.
(non live-steamers would expect there would *always* be a train! no reason to think otherwise..and that what this thread seems to be about..
the surprise about short, or no, trains behind locomotives..)

So I was just saying, its not surprising to me! because I see it all the time..
If I had to guess I would say it was about 50/50..
or maybe 60/40 train/no train..(or very short train..only a few cars) about in that range..


Scot

 

Greg, an added comment. Since the live steamers are all metal and ours are mostly plastic, with a few exceptions, I would think that they would out pull us because they weigh more. As I recall, a few years back Dr Rivet ran a stock extra on his NG weekend and a K-36(?) pulled 40+ Accucraft stock cars. I also think that there was a time when there was a Challenger or BB pulling 80+ reefers. Jim can fill in the details if I'm too far off base.

It takes a long layout, such as his, to truly run these brutes. They are amazing to watch with a long train.


Chuck

 

I think it's not so much weight, but the scaling of the power from steam. Possibly the prototypes suspension cannot be accurately reproduced in a model. I have all my electric locos at basically scale weight and they can pull prototype consists with cars that approximate half load on the average and up a grade in excess of 1%.

Again, I'm no expert in the numbers for prototypes on weights, pulling power as relates to consists and grades.

Greg

 

The first time I tried to double head my 2 Mikes with seperate R/C for each Loco, I noted that the lead engine seemed to be slipping the drivers so I closed the Throttle slightly on what I thought was that one. It didn't seem to help. So I closed the Throttle a bit more. Still no help, the engine was still slipping the drivers. So I closed the Throttle completely and moved the Reverser to neutral. It was then that I realized I had gotten gotten myself confused as to which hand was holding the Transmitter for which locomotive and I had completely shut down the wrong engine. The lead engine was still pulling the train of 23 cars and a dead 2nd engine, sliding the completely stopped drivers along the rail.

I then slowed the lead engine until the drivers regained traction and then managed to accelerate the whole train (dead engine and 23 cars) with just the one.

I tried it the other way round and could do the same thing, pushing the lead engine (with stalled drivers) with the 2nd engine.

I put the engines back to back with no train at all, they would both slip their drivers wildly, but the consist would usually move in the direction of the engine with more water in the boiler (more weight). I figured I was just wearing out the rail and driver tread, so I didn't do it more than just the once.

The engines sound better when they have a good weight to pull, but are hard to get started with that weight. The old trick of backing the train up to compress the slack and then start the train one car at a time really does work, but it sometimes takes several tries. And the need to drag a lot of cars out of storage and put them on the track (and the chore of putting them all away) is an awful lot of trouble just to get a bit better sound.

I did work on developing a car that would start easy, but increase its resistance to moving after it went faster. I got it to work on just one axle of a car and it made a BIG difference! I could put one car in the train and it was equivalent to dozens of cars at speed.

But my building skills are lacking and I was never able to make rugged enough to work more than a few minutes before needing more duck-tape and bailing wire. I am sure it would be very good if I could have gotten it applied to more axles on the car.

That would not help with the illusion of pulling lots of cars, which is what was being asked about, but it sure does make the engine BARK at track speed!

 

DMK

Sorry but some how on the first response the hyperlink did not work, so here is the "custom engine" and long train at DH13:

AC6 long reefer train

 

Most of the guys I steam with prefer to have some cars to pull. The loco looks and sounds better with a load than when running by itself. Very rare to see a loco running all by itself. We share whatever cars people bring so we do not have to bring a lot of cars ourselves.

Some of the guys have entire trains. That is a British engine with a string of appropriate and to scale cars to go with it.

 

Even A little Frank S will pull 20 cars with reasonable traction, a most impressive plume!!

 

At steamups, it is quite normal and common to see a locomotive chugging around the track with nothing attached to it.
Someone pointed out that getting to DH with a steam engine is quite complicated enough, without bringing a truckload of coaches/reefers/etc.

And I think that's why you see shorter trains at steamups. We are often visiting a remote location, and there's a limit to how many boxes you can cram in the car. (I recently swapped my Jetta for a Sportwagen - diesel of course - so I could carry stacks of boxes in the back. The loco box goes on a towel on the back seat.) When Jerry and I went over to Dr Rivet's steamup, there was only just room for us in the car after he added his stack of boxes to mine!

Dr Rivet's steamup is often the place to see long trains, as many folk arrive and you can 'borrow' a consist and add it to yours. Plus the Dr has a few cars of his own to add to the mix.

 

Back to DM-K's comment regarding DH and short trains...

I know for a fact that at one point Jerry [through funding contributions of the participants] acquired almost 40 MDC hoppers, reefers, and box cars specifically for use be the folks at the meet. I know this is true because I sold him the metal wheels and the Kadee couplers, and assisted with their installation.

Did these cars just "disappear", kind of like the track off the old layouts?

That rolling stock should still be available.... of course the meet ends tomorrow.

 

People forget when it comes to live steam you run till the fuel is empty and in some cases you get a certain time slot to run. I would think its not worth putting so many cars on a steamer when you only can run for so long. Electric can run all day non stop.
I know at the Scranton Steam Up I see plenty of rolling stock being pulled and rarley do I see a steamer by itself.
Plus its a pain bringing 15+ pieces of rolling stock on top of live steamers and the tools required.

 

Yes Jim and I sold him about 15 MDC box cars with Sierra Valley wheels and KD 820 couplers on them about 2003, and where did they go?

 

Back in 2008 I helped with dismantling the big track and packing away the assorted MDC cars. There were no more than a dozen cars to put back in their boxes and I remember there being several boxes left over so obviously some light-fingered 'enthusiast' had ripped off a few more. I would hazard a guess that the rest of the ones that you and Jim supplied suffered the same fate..........how sad that someone we trust in this delightful and good natured hobby is, in a word, a thief.
As regards Will's webcam this year, I appreciate his efforts but the quality and sound were so bad that it was just an exercise in frustration trying to recognize anyone or anything......I guess that's the limits of the hotel's system, but thankyou for your effort Will.

David M-K
Ottawa

 

To quote a certain French inspector.."The mystery is solve-ed"...

Apparently the boxes containing the rolling stock came over from the storage locker with the track.
Most of these boxes were placed along the wall in one of the hallway spaces while the track was being assembled.
A member of the fire marshals office came by and announced that the boxes had to be moved immediately.
So.. someone dutifully took them to a room and they were locked up, out of the way. Apparently their new location was not widely shared.

As a result there were very few cars to pull, but apparently it was not uppermost on anyone's mind, as the cars did not surface until nearly the end of the event.

To me, this DOES INDICATE that for many in the live steam crowd... the LOCOMOTIVE is KING, and pulling a proper train is somewhat of an afterthought.

Too bad no one missed the cars early on... I agree with D M-K that a loco is much more interesting when pulling a rake of proper stock.

I am just glad that the cars are still around and did not float out into the bay after one of the storms.

 

Right after the tracks were up and running, Pat Darby questioned where all of the cars were. Apparently nobody around at the time knew the answer. Glad to hear that the cars are all fine and accounted for.