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Ruby 2 OR&L #6

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Discussion starter · #21 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Thanks Winn,
It has no load on it, because it's suspended, so I've been running it for a little while on 2 psi (near as I can tell because the pressure gauge I have only measures in increments of 3.3333333 for some strange reason).
"Reverse the valve timing", I recalled reading that in some thread or article, but could not remember the directions, so I just followed the guidelines in the assembly directions. It runs smoothly and equally in both reverse and forward. I was expecting some issues with that, and was again pleasantly surprised that there were no problems in reverse or forward.
I don't know if its Royce's cylinders or just dumb luck but the thing just started going as soon as I turned on the air at 20 psi.
I did find one thing out while I've been playing around, and don't remember reading this anywhere (although with my memory I could have) If I mess around with the forward and reverse valve a little I can change the speeds of forward and reverse. As it turns out, despite what the instructions say, using that line scribed around the forward and reverse valve as a guide, if you push the valve in, just a hair past the line, it will go faster in forward than if it's lined up perfectly. If you pull the valve out till it stops and then just barely push it in, it goes fast in reverse. Maybe that's normal?
One question, while I had the frame running under 15 psi, I decided to check for vacuum leaks,,, I mean pressure leaks since this is not internal combustion. I put a little soapy water around the valve chest and the cylinders and noticed that there are a few bubbles forming.
Is that normal?
Will it seal up tighter once the cylinders are hot?
I don't have a miniature torque wrench, and if I did there's nothing in the instructions about the torque pressure. I did follow a cross pattern when tightening the screws down. The leaks don't seem to impact the performance, to check this, I put a piece of melamine on the flanges and pressed up lightly just till the frame lifted and the wheels didn't slow down or hesitate at 20 psi, but they did slow down at 5 psi. Is that the leak?
If the leak is a critical concern at this point how do I fix it without risking stripping the screws?
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

I took the cylinders off this morning in preparation of painting them. I decided while I had them off, to try the stock Ruby cylinders so I would have a reference to compare Royces cylinders too. After all, this is my first live steamer and I really am clueless.
WOW! what a major disappointment the stock cylinders are. They didn't start spinning till 26 psi or more. I even tried turning them over by hand as instructed in the manual. Nothing, reverse worked at 20 psi just fine,,, in fact reverse was faster at any pressure.
I tried to run them at 3 psi, 6 psi and they wouldn't budge. They made a sort of jerky motion at 10 psi, but ran smoothly in reverse. Tinkering with the forward and reverse valve made little difference in forward.
I've got to say that if you are planning on purchasing the Ruby, you may want to consider the upgraded cylinders, especially if this is your first try at Live Steam. I made no mods to the running gear and she runs excellent with the upgrade cylinders. That might change when I hook up the boiler, but I think I can rule out the running gear if I encounter performance problems when I install the boiler.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Image

This is a verified image of Kauila around 1900. Jeff Livingston and Uncle Bob are both doing the research on this in Hawaii and forwarding me their findings.
I'm only guessing it was around or after 1900 because of the tender below.

Image

This tender was built in 1900 according to the info that Jeff sent me. I've decided that I will model this too because it looks cool with a huge
water barrel I can hide batteries and possible part of an rc unit for the remote controls.

It turns out Kauila is something of a mystery.
Image


This image appears in Sugar Trains Pictorials and is identified as Number 6 and the time is given as "around 1895"
Image

This is Kauila on display in 1937 after being decommissioned. As you can see, she is an 0-4-2. When she was converted to that wheel configuration

is still a mystery.

Image


I'm not sure when this image was taken. It might be before 1917 because from as much as I can tell (not verified) OR&L logo on engines and coaches
was changed to Oahu Railway after 1917. I only have limited photographic evidence to support this assumption at this time. The headlight too seems to be appear
on engines from 1903 to around 1917, but again, that is as far as I can tell from the photographic evidence and the dates assigned by STP and NSH to those images.



One other confusing issue is that Conde claims this is a picture taken before the conversion to a 0-4-2. I've enlarged the image, and it looks like there is a trailing truck under there
hiding in the shadows.


Also, a comparison of the drivers in this pic and the 1900 pic above seems to show that the wheels in this pic are smaller, but in all honesty there is so much shadow
I can't really be sure.


I've got a spec sheet on the engine as it was shipped to Hawaii coming in the mail in a couple of days. I will update this topic with that data as soon as I can transcribe
it to a digital format.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

East,
Good catch, I didn't notice that. I did some calculations (the best I could with grainy pics) and we have a known dimension which is the wheelbase. The wheels on both are approximately 23.134 inches (Due to the graininess and a shaky hand this measurement is about 99.999% accurate) So taking that measurement in mind, the older image shows drivers 27.445 inches + or - and the newer image shows drivers 25.51 inches + or -. That's almost 2 inches of wear! Is that possible?
 
#26 ·
Posted By rkapuaala on 11/20/2008 10:34 AM
East,
Good catch, I didn't notice that. I did some calculations (the best I could with grainy pics) and we have a known dimension which is the wheelbase. The wheels on both are approximately 23.134 inches (Due to the graininess and a shaky hand this measurement is about 99.999% accurate) So taking that measurement in mind, the older image shows drivers 27.445 inches + or - and the newer image shows drivers 25.51 inches + or -. That's almost 2 inches of wear! Is that possible?


That isn't 2 inches of wear. It's only one inch of wear. Remember it's on a diameter.

Chas
 
#28 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

When we put new tires on the Porter mogul at the museum I volunteer at the tires were about two inches thick. Take into account that it may not all be wear. Railroads would turn down the wheels when they lost profile to reprofile them. You could do this a few times extending the life of the tire. So a lose of an inch worth of material is possible. I have also noticed this on pictures of Maine two foor gauge forneys of the WW&F Railway.

-Eric
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Specs for Class 4-10-1/2 C Baldwin Locomotive
That's probably more information than you will ever need or want.
The Ruby actually ends up being a fairly good frame for this model. The Ruby's wheel base scales out to 45.72" .28" under the specs.
The Ruby drivers scale out to about 27.94" .06" under the spec.
The Ruby driver centers scale out to be 23.1775 .8225 under spec
These are just quick measurements, so they could be a little closer or little further away from the specs.
Next, I'm going to try and work out a time line for the changes to Kauila during her life time on the OR&L and come up with a list of modifications I'm going to make.
I'll spare you the details about the time line and just post my modifications before I begin with them.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

I've been lowering the boiler today and as a distraction I tried putting on the steam dome. Does anyone know how this is done exactly? Mine is a single piece threaded steam dome. The instructions just say put the dome on. Easier said than done. You can't even catch one thread before the collar hits the boiler.
 
#31 ·
The lower section of the dome removes from the top, the threaded part. The sand dome has a retainer that clips on top of the filler cap. Are you using a ruby kit? If so then the domes just sit onto the top of the boiler.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Jason,
Its a Ruby Kit. The sand dome just slips on top. I went back and gave the top of the steam dome a good hard turn and is as you say, the top does pull off, it was just stuck a little and such a good fit, I thought it was solid.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Got all the parts for a running engine assembled this evening and tested air through the boiler for about an hour. While lowering the boiler, I had to take some measurements and was disappointed to discover that the boiler scales out to be 36". That's 6" bigger to Kauila's last installed boiler and 12" bigger than her original boiler. More unfortunately I am trying to model the 24" boiler.
QUESTIONS
1. Can I cut the smoke box off and install a smaller diameter and shorter smoke box with out effecting the performance of the engine? It seems easy enough to do.
2. Any recommendations on what I can use as steam oil that is readily available at a hardware store or automotive parts place? The nearest place that sells it is about an hour away, and I'm jonesin to fire this thing up and see it work under steam, even if just for a few minutes before I tear her down and do my mods.
 
#34 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

1) Shouldn't be too much of an issue, except that you need to make sure the flue exhaust still fully enters the smokebox. I'm not sure you've got quite that much room on the bottom between the bottom of the flue and the bottom of the boiler. Of course, if you hide the entire boiler inside the saddle tank, then this isn't an issue. You can line up the bottom edges, and go from there.

2) I've heard some folks using Lucas oil from the auto store as a stand-in for steam oil. I've not tried it myself, but if you check the archives here--maybe go back to the old forum archives--you'll probably find a reference or two to it.

Later,

K
 
#36 ·
Before I use "steam oil", it has to have "steam oil" on the container. Too much invested to try something that may not work.

have you tried rc-steamers.com (800-845-8978) or California & Oregon Coast Railway, www.cocry.com (800-866-8635). Or try Ron Brown as to who would have steam oil on the west coast.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Bill,
Thanks, I have order steam oil from the Accucraft store. Hopefully that will arrive before I finish the loco. I just want to fire up with steam for a few minutes before I tear her down and start making the mods mentioned above.
 
#38 ·
When running an engine on compressed air, just about any lubrication is okay to use... motor oil, "3 in 1", sewing machine oil, chainsaw oil, Lucas Oil Treatment... as long as it is a lubricant and has no suspended particulate matter and does not attack anything used as seals. You just squirt some on the surfaces, or slop some down the steam delivery pipe to get it spread on the sliding surfaces, and the compressed air does not blow or wash it away.

But remember that STEAM is used to clean oil off of objects so just any oil will not work when running the engine using steam. Steam will wash away ALL of those libricants... ALL of them... and you then are running your engine dry (i.e.: without lubrication) except for the steam itself.

Petroleum oil does NOT mix with the steam, it can be delivered to the system, but it will not spread to all the surfaces in the presence of hot steam and some surfaces will not be lubricated.


The original lubrication used in steam engines was TALLOW... or Animal Fat. You would probably be better off to boil some fatty beef or ham in a pot and skim off the lard that rises to the top, strain it in a fine mesh strainer and use the result, than to use any other type of oil. Animal Fat will homogenize with the steam and when the steam condenses on the sides of the cylinder it provides lubrication until the heat and steam washes it away... it does not stick any better than any other oil, it must be continuously replenished, thus the in-line steam oil reservoir that continuously supplies a small amount of oil into the steam delivery pipe.

The problem with straight animal fat (tallow) is that tallow will burn (oxidize) at the temperatures of Super Heated steam. The Ruby is not a true Super Heated engine, but it usually does have the steam delivery pipe traveling through the area of the burner flame. The fact that the pipe is so near the flame does introduce the problem that if you were to use plain tallow it would probably burn in that pipe and burnt tallow will both clog the pipe and scar/score the sliding surfaces... both of which you don't want to happen to your engine. Mixing the animal fat with petroleum oil prevents the oxidation of the animal fat in the superheater.

The next possibility, (if you just HAVE TO run your engine but have absolutely no way to get Steam Cylinder Oil) is to mix the tallow obtained from boiling beef or ham with Mineral Oil (the stuff you get at the drug store to use as a mild laxative or what some women use to remove some types of facial makeup). The mixture is PROBABLY less than 30% tallow and more than 70% mineral oil... but "I" do NOT know for sure the ratio of the two ingredients.

The best bet is to run it on compressed air with a light motor oil injected every 10 to 15 minutes or get some REAL "Steam Cylinder Oil".

Can the engine be run with other types of oil? YES! BUT, with reduced lifetime and the possibility of extensive damage that can occur without advance notice that it is gonna happen... kind of like, can you whack a priceless glass vase (pronounce that as "vazz") with a hammer.. sure, but if you hit it too hard just once you no longer have an intact vazz. Do you want to take that chance?

Your engine, your money, your time, your decision.

"Crisco" might be usable.. but I have no idea whether vegetable oils would be useful. Extra Virgin Olive Oil, "Wesson Oil", and the like, I just have no idea what is in them or at what temperature they would break down/oxidize and lose their usefulness (or worse) and allow your engine to be running without lubrication. Remember, steam under pressure is at a higher temperature than 212 degrees. (At 30 PSI it is at 274 deg. 45 PSI is at 293 deg and 60 PSI is at 307 deg.) They would also have to mix equally well with water and any other oils in the system and not attack or degrade any materials they come in contact with (seals). I would also be concerned with solid contaminants in any commercial lards or cooking oils.

Have you checked your telephone directory for Oils? I bought a 5 gallon pail of Steam Cylinder Oil from the local Heating Oil company for $30.00 a few years ago. IT is still used by many companies that use steam generated by power companies. Granted, that is WAY TOO MUCH oil for one guy to use in a whole lifetime, but at just $30.00, I am way ahead of those that are paying $5.00 or $10.00 for a pint or less every couple of years.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
RE: Ruby 2 OR&L #6

Thanks C.T.
I decided to give it a short try anyway, with some gear oil. Nothing happened, in fact the thing never seemed to steam up properly, but I'm not experienced so I gotta ask, what happens when the safety valve pops? Shouldn't there be a pop or something? I ran through two tanks of butane, before I even heard a slight hiss, from the valve. I put my finger over it and a very weak stream of air was coming out of it. I eased off on the throttle and some water shot through the smoke stack.
Now note that I was very care careful to only put in 80ml with the syringe and no more.
Suspecting that maybe some water got into the boiler from my compressor, I let the engine cool and dumped all the water out and started over again. The same thing happened. I had two tanks of butane and just a very weak stream of air coming from the safety valve.
Firing the burner itself up was something of a trail. I remember reading a thread on this forum where someone mentioned that the gas control valve was "touchy" that would be an understatement. I went through a book of matches before I found out I couldn't hardly open the valve in order to light it.
A quarter, and eighth and a sixteenth of a turn were too much. A bare touch was all it took, then I could open in a 1/16 turn and it made this sort quiet torch sound. But no real steam. I experimentally opened the valve up again, and nothing but water coming out the stacks, and those leaks I mentioned before.
Is 80 ml too much?
 
#40 ·
Posted By rkapuaala on 11/25/2008 2:31 PM
Thanks C.T.
I decided to give it a short try anyway, with some gear oil. Nothing happened, in fact the thing never seemed to steam up properly, but I'm not experienced so I gotta ask, what happens when the safety valve pops? Shouldn't there be a pop or something? I ran through two tanks of butane, before I even heard a slight hiss, from the valve. I put my finger over it and a very weak stream of air was coming out of it. I eased off on the throttle and some water shot through the smoke stack.
Now note that I was very care careful to only put in 80ml with the syringe and no more.
Suspecting that maybe some water got into the boiler from my compressor, I let the engine cool and dumped all the water out and started over again. The same thing happened. I had two tanks of butane and just a very weak stream of air coming from the safety valve.
Firing the burner itself up was something of a trail. I remember reading a thread on this forum where someone mentioned that the gas control valve was "touchy" that would be an understatement. I went through a book of matches before I found out I couldn't hardly open the valve in order to light it.
A quarter, and eighth and a sixteenth of a turn were too much. A bare touch was all it took, then I could open in a 1/16 turn and it made this sort quiet torch sound. But no real steam. I experimentally opened the valve up again, and nothing but water coming out the stacks, and those leaks I mentioned before.
Is 80 ml too much?


Well, I don't have a lot of experience with the Ruby... friend of mine has one and as I remember he fills the boiler completely full and then withdraws a given amount of water... which I think is 30 ml. The idea being enough water to cover the flue by about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and have some space above that for steam to form.

As the the safety valve. Some will make quite a POP when they release and some just slowly spit and sputter until they are fully open. But it doesn't sound like you got much steam pressure.

Water out the stack is normal for the first few rotations of the wheels and then it should diminish to almost none in a very few more. The steam condenses in the relatively cold pipes and cylinders and you get water there until the material heats up enough to not cool the steam so quickly.

Another cause of water out the stack is too much water in the boiler, which is called "priming" and the above procedure will take care of that unless the water gets to foaming and then it could be a problem again. Foaming is caused by contaminants in the water... oil, detergents, etc. Full sized engines had the same problem and sometimes the backwoodsy folk would toss a sack of potatoes in the tender (or even the boiler) to counter-act it! ... not recommended model boiler practice... just use distilled water and all should be okay. If the boiler has some oil or something in it, just rinse it out a couple of times... even use some alcohol as a rinse agent... should not take much, just enough to cut the oil and such.

The fuel control valve has a coarse thread so a little rotation is a lot of horizontal movement and very little movement is a lot of difference in the amount of fuel being delivered. The threads are also a bit of a loose mate and so touching the stem will vary the amount of opening for fuel to flow and that makes it difficult to control. Some folk put a spring between the valve body and the stem knob to hold the threads at one end and this mitigates the problem somewhat.

Now, as for your difficulty in getting steam... do you have a pressure gage? If so, what did it read?

If not, hmmm... are you sure the fire was burning in the flue tube and not in the smokebox? Bad to have it in the smoke box! Does not heat the water and burns the paint on the outside.

Ruby owners should jump in here today and clarify the amount of water in the boiler and maybe give a better idea of what the problems is... I got the "Theory" down pat, but as a fellow (well.. Lady) Engineer once told me... "Theory and the real world are not related!"
 
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