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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Yes i made a separate tread to not hijack a previous tread, but to help the OP of that tread!
Wood For Ties | G Scale Model Train Forum (mylargescale.com)

Short introduction:
I have been experimenting with wooden ties for over a year now and making tracks in several ways.
Even did a study into road and railroad engineering, ect.
As a carpenter for over 30 years i handled a lot of wood and have decent machinery.

The best successes so far are shown in the pictures:

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20210614_084619.jpg

Some of the experiments that where a succes.

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From top to bottom:
1 Untreated oak.
2 Untreated azobe, estimated functional life span untreated 20 years.
3 Oak with wood stain(never again) it will soak in completely but you have to redo it every two years.
Estimated functional life span untreated 15 years.
4 Untreated fir (coniferas) Estimated functional life span untreated 15 years.(i have read story's and seen pictures of 20 year old)
5 Bankirai with wood stain (never again) it will NOT soak in completely but you have to redo it every one or two years.
Estimated functional life span untreated 15-20 years.
In general:
For treatment i would recoment a oil, up to creosote if allowed in your country, but why bother.
To preform that job the propper way you will need a vacuum chamber.

Creosote and carboleum are forbidden in my country, wood stain give a to big mess.
With wood stain it will get messy if done in bulk.
I prepare a bucket with 2.5 liter of wood stain and dunk all my pre slotted ties/sleepers in, let them soak for 6 hours, take them out let them dry, next batch.
After 24 hours the wood stain will become soggy, adding terpentine or water(depending on your type of wood stain) will not help.
The tannine and cellulose in the wood itself will make this mess.
But the residue is a perfect hdpe glue, yes i could not get some ties of a hdpe cradle, i had to use force and help of a chisel...


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Treated and untreated oak with wood stain


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treated bankirai with wood stain.
You can clearly see the unwanted effect of not soaking in entirely and left outside for a year.

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Untreated fir(coniferas)
Treatment is very good to do.

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My favorite:
Azobe.
In the real railroad world the also make there ties/sleepers of this wood, US of A is no exception.
Most gardening centres in Europe have this wood in stock as fence poles.
How to work with hard woods in general, simple:
Table saw, cut off saw and for the slots also a table saw.
Just normal wood blades, nothing fancy.
When cutting beams length wise use bigger teeth when making slots use smaller teeth.
For drilling a hole for the nails a regular drill bid according to size will do fine.
Or a small nail gun, the speed of the nail driving into the wood, gives the wood no time to react thus split.


61744

Moving on to the modern age of techy techy...
3d printed ABS uv resistant, self life approx 15 to 20 years.
Hdpe would be far better, but you can not print that, aldo there are some hobbyist that claim that they had success.
Casting plastic would be better.

My next endeavours will be re-investigate wood, i think i am done with 3d printing.(live steam could melt the sleepers?)
All my work is prototypical correct. lgb material will probably derail on my track.

A little show off:
61745

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A not yet finished 5 way turnout, but the results are very promising.
The other completed projects/work is very effective.

My two cents
With best regards Igor.
 
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I see that azobe wood can be gotten for ties in the USA, surprise, but the previous desired wood was usually oak, so I'm sure that is getting scarce. Very interesting.

I see you keep mentioning that "All my work is prototypical correct. " But not even your railhead is prototypical. I don't know why you keep stressing this, you have posted you reduced your wheel gauge to fit your track, etc.

Example, the FRS says that your back to back cannot vary more than 1/4".... in 1:32 that is 7.8 thousandths of an inch...

To be even more clear, max flange depth is 1.5", in 1:32 that is 0.047" from the tread to the max of the flange.... 0.06 is really difficult....

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol4/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol4-sec230-112.pdf actual government document....

Your turnouts are still way sharper than prototype, the turnout next to my house has a #21 frog...

Honestly, no one has succeeded to use prototype wheel contours on outside track in g scale.

I'm not demeaning your creativity, nor your ability to come up with ingenious solutions, but please stop the "prototypically correct" stuff. It's just not possible outdoors, and no one expects it. You have to make compromises.

Greg
 

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Igor,
Great job.

Honestly, no one has succeeded to use prototype wheel contours on outside track in g scale.
Greg,
I know that you will disagree, but the 1/32 Finescale group seems to be doing fine with it.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
 

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Igor
Great work and that 5 way point is a work of art. I would be very happy to run on your track.
Greg re your reply...
When Igor says his 'specifications' are prototypical correct I think he is really saying back-to-back wheel measurements and frogs are to a much finer tolerance and closer to prototype than many other popular G scale track makers and his radius seems to be a good compromise and not as sharp as the 4 to 6 foot radius used in many garden railways. None of us have room for 30 foot plus radius curves and #21 frogs on points, not even the finescale guys in the UK, but getting better tolerances if you have the room is the way to go and Igor's track looks good.
Russell
 

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David, anyone can call anything FineScale.... I am talking prototypically correct, i.e. scaled down from prototype. Not the same kettle of fish at all.

please check the NMRA standard:

There are 2 sctions to that page, the first is prototype dimensions.....
the second section is "Finescale Options", almost DOUBLE.... compare HO in both charts.

Great, Finescale outdoors, approximately double the tolerances, sure...

PROTOTYPE dimensions scaled down... NO WAY.... feel free to show me a 1:32 train running outdoors with a wheel flange depth of 0.99 mm...

This is what I am talking about... also if you would read Igor's other posts here, and on GScaleCentral.com, you will read additional deviations from even the standards, changes to accommodate a large loco he is making, etc.

A great imagination, interesting ways to make things, but PROTOTYPICAL, not at all... The word has a definition in the English language.

Greg
 

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I typically don't care for the groove track style, but your turnouts are some of the best groove style examples I've seen. The 3D printed frogs are cool, but I do prefer the way you made the frog check rails blended in from the wing rails. This is how I do it when I need to make a frog that is irregular or I don't have a casting for. I can't tell from the picture, are the frog points on the five-way plastic still? Luckily you can have aluminum machined pretty easy into a point/wedge. That would be ideal over PLA/ABS, but there is an advantage of just simply printing more and swapping them out I suppose.

Nice work!
 

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He's mostly on GScaleCentral, many more posts, and I know he is not in the USA, that is why I am questioning stuff that is not readily or inexpensively available in the US. This is not the first time.

You should read some of the posts on GScaleCentral on his track and tweaking of standards to suit a custom loco 4-14-4 as I believe.... then you will understand the context.

His "prototypical" wheel gauge is 44mm but he recently reduced it to 40 on his 4-14-4 loco... Just saying that if you want to say your track or loco is prototypically correct but you don't even reach finescale standards, then it is not prototypically correct.

We've had endless discussions where the dimensions are not divulged. So, if you want to advertise something as true in a public forum, especially something virtually impossible to accomplish, you should back it up.


Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You could not be wrong more, just like our conversation about li ion.....
He's mostly on GScaleCentral, many more posts
You want to know them all about track making the good the bad and the ugly.....
Here is where i started and how.....:
Track making/making tracks: the good, the bad and the ugly, advice and thoughts wanted, explanation is giving(incl mistakes) | G Scale Central

I even started a course?!?!?!!?!?Road and railroad engineering!
Enlisted on better forums to be better educated.....shared my adventures....?
There are more communities that build prototypical or fine scale.....A LOT MORE THEN JUST ME

I came a long way of learning to achieve what i achieved right know.(40 year old wish btw)(including wheel sets, boogies what ever)...and yes it is not perfect yet, except for the dimensions...they are prototypical!!!!!!!!!!!
**** off Greg i am done with you, nothing i do is good enough for you.....
Dispute all your warnings or your threads...i achieved what i wanted.....Still not there but almost there....
WRONG TIMING WRONG MOMENT>>>>YES I AM CRANKY.....And done with you.....nothing what i do will please you...
BUT IT WORKS?????SURPRISE I AM.....
Atm i have 106 Kwh on li ion cells and expending atm 100 kwh with lifepo4......That is where it started...right?a simple discussion about the use of li ion cells second handed? for a man that could not afford some new li ion cells.....still waiting for my "second lesson" i am a true engineer btw(2 times btw almost 3x), i just urn below 50000 clean a year with out tax, yes that is to low for you.....After tax i can keep 75.000 a year...oooo wait we have a different tax system , o sorry battery university was kinder garden.....
Dont't get me started on lead...i am a metallic ing too, you remember...

YES i am building the AA20 prototypical in live steam.....i have the room /garden to be the first one!!!!! that will succeed...
Yes flange debt will be 1 whole mm not 0.99mm....my track is 45mm exactly..my boogies are flange to inside flange 44 mm AKA 0.5MM between flange and rail.....
Told you several times before.....on g scale central....
Yes i have to make consessions to make the AA20 work, but now instead of a flange to flange base of 39mm i am to a flange to flange base of 42mm
Yes it must have it own track....with some adjustments(for the aa20) but i will get there, wtf you care, all your warnings i did not do anything with them because they are not counted for...or hold any value/ground...and still i am getting there, exactly what i want...
Bringing the AA20 (Andrey Andreev 20 ton per axle) back to life...4-14-4 | G Scale Central
Time is my biggest enemy...to achieve my dreams, and yes i dont follow my dreams i hunt them down..........

My 5way switch is 2 meter 60 in length..my normal turnouts are 1 meter 50cm in length...you are right this is not proto typical 80 km an hour turnouts....
My scale is p1:32....

This comment will be deleted if a moderator reads it, please copy before it will be deleted it...thank you.
The rest of the members i will give a decent replay that they deserve, sorry, tomorrow.

Dear Greg you have a excellent choose of words beyond my understanding, but i understand enough about the american English language that you really do not approve what i am doing......
WHY NOT is my question........ it is all about experimenting:
If we all would follow the same person we would be still walking in bearskins and ........you get my drift.......

With my best regards and apologises to all those that are a withniss..... a 3 forum width spread anger have to end like this, there are limits, and i will draw the shorted straw...I dont care anymore, sorry Greg, this was to much...Ofcourse you will have your word ready, i give up i am done....Also on gscale central...thank you.
 

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I've had my say Igor, and it is not with malice, I fully appreciate how difficult it will be to achieve the loco you are making. I'm sure it will look great.

You have done an incredible job with the flat bar track. I think when you put metal inserts in your frogs, your switches will be astounding, and as you state much less expensive than commercial ones.

But my single point is that you will not achieve prototype dimensions on your track and wheels and run outdoors. That's all. Nothing else.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
That's all. Nothing else.
And the rest?
Lead is banned in California?? for example.
Pla will deteriorate...do your home work you wrote in capital...
Li ion is not save fire hazard ect...do your home work???? i just tested a mare 20.000 18650's with moderate equipment built myself, easy.
In general you are making things more difficult to people give up..so you can trive...
Just to mention some examples....
Go back to school Greg...and leave me alone, and learn some thing things your self....like simple mechanics or basic electronics....
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
You're really doing a great job I must commend. This is something very unique and uncommon.
If i may ask for the unique and uncommon: the 5way or in general my work? and thus my approach?
I am curios.

Best
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
When Igor says his 'specifications' are prototypical correct I think he is really saying back-to-back wheel measurements and frogs are to a much finer tolerance and closer to prototype than many other popular G scale track makers and his radius seems to be a good compromise and not as sharp as the 4 to 6 foot radius used in many garden railways.
1:15 - 47 meter - 80 km/h real life a regular main line turnout in the Netherlands in scale just 1 meter 40
Would be be 47000 / 32 = 1469mm
gauge 45mm exacly between the rail and 44 mm between the flanges would make 0.5mm between flange and rail*32...i think this is very close..

I would be very happy to run on your track.
Any time when you are in the Netherlands you are welcome
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
White Oak is weather resistant
we only have white oak, main inland, the hardest type i can get, we used to build "windmolens" with that one.
For making sleepers i would not recommend.
It will last at top 15 years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Luckily you can have aluminum machined pretty easy into a point/wedge
Atm i am saving for a cnc machine, but i will go into full depth of your answer/questions
 

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I see that azobe wood can be gotten for ties in the USA, surprise, but the previous desired wood was usually oak, so I'm sure that is getting scarce. Very interesting.

I see you keep mentioning that "All my work is prototypical correct. " But not even your railhead is prototypical. I don't know why you keep stressing this, you have posted you reduced your wheel gauge to fit your track, etc.

Example, the FRS says that your back to back cannot vary more than 1/4".... in 1:32 that is 7.8 thousandths of an inch...

To be even more clear, max flange depth is 1.5", in 1:32 that is 0.047" from the tread to the max of the flange.... 0.06 is really difficult....

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol4/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol4-sec230-112.pdf actual government document....

Your turnouts are still way sharper than prototype, the turnout next to my house has a #21 frog...

Honestly, no one has succeeded to use prototype wheel contours on outside track in g scale.

I'm not demeaning your creativity, nor your ability to come up with ingenious solutions, but please stop the "prototypically correct" stuff. It's just not possible outdoors, and no one expects it. You have to make compromises.

Greg
Greg,
I can't believe that you are picking on his use of terms when the entire focus of his presentation is his experience and results with different types of wood for rail ties. He is not at all focusing on prototypical dimensions of track gauge. And you keep going on and on and on with the same theme. Reminds me of a joke - "When you are up to your hips in alligators, it is time to remember your job was to drain the swamp".
 
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