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why isn't 1/29th scale called An51?

1430 Views 39 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  tacfoley, 
NorthwestGarrattGuy
so obviously popular modeling scales have letters O, N, S, HO, etc and some large scales have there own letters for specific scale ratios like 1/20.3 F scale and 1/24 H scale, so why doesn't 1/29 and since the gauge is wrong make like Ow5 and assign An51 to it (A standing for either american or aristocraft and 51 standing for the number of scale inches)
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MGates
I don't see many refer to 1:24 scale as "H," (besides the G Scale wiki page) but do occasionally see/hear folks write out/say '1/2" scale.' In some model railroading circles it is described as "Cape Gauge 1" when modeling 3.5ft South African railroads as 1:24 is the closest whole number scale, while retaining "Gauge 1" in the name to indicate that the real model gauge is 45mm. There are enough examples of 3.5ft railroads elsewhere in the world that it wouldn't surprise me if folks have decided to go with a letter designation in some niche modeling circles.

"A Scale" has been used in the past to describe specifically Aristocraft 1:29 rolling stock, but you very rarely see it mentioned... especially now that Aristo has not been an active presence in the hobby for many years, and USA Trains has taken up the torch to continue making items in that scale. So, 1:29 scale being pioneered mostly by Aristo is less important of a point of specificity now.

On the G Scale Wikipedia page it mentions in the Scales section:
A scale: 1:29. First used by Aristo-Craft to model standard-gauge prototypes. Incorrect scale/gauge but proportionally similar to other popular brands of the time.
Click to expand...
See this write up of Aristocraft history if you are interested in some more details about the company: Aristo-Craft Trains

So to speculate on your question, I don't think anyone has gone through the trouble to name it "An51" because "A scale" technically already exists and already specifically references the Aristocraft products of a set scale of 1:29 equipment on 45mm track even if it is not correct proportionally to the track gauge when modeling off the prototype. "G scale" being the mess it already is with several scales made by various manufacturers is enough of an umbrella term to accommodate 1:29 so I don't see there being much in a shift of nomenclature for 1:29 model trains unless it is particularly and unnaturally forced in some way.

Okay now I'm off to continue building some 1:32 turnouts (NOT 1:29 thank you very much! ;))

Best,
Mike
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NorthwestGarrattGuy
MGates said:
I don't see many refer to 1:24 scale as "H," (besides the G Scale wiki page) but do occasionally see/hear folks write out/say '1/2" scale.' In some model railroading circles it is described as "Cape Gauge 1" when modeling 3.5ft South African railroads as 1:24 is the closest whole number scale, while retaining "Gauge 1" in the name to indicate that the real model gauge is 45mm. There are enough examples of 3.5ft railroads elsewhere in the world that it wouldn't surprise me if folks have decided to go with a letter designation in some niche modeling circles.

"A Scale" has been used in the past to describe specifically Aristocraft 1:29 rolling stock, but you very rarely see it mentioned... especially now that Aristo has not been an active presence in the hobby for many years, and USA Trains has taken up the torch to continue making items in that scale. So, 1:29 scale being pioneered mostly by Aristo is less important of a point of specificity now.

On the G Scale Wikipedia page it mentions in the Scales section:


See this write up of Aristocraft history if you are interested in some more details about the company: Aristo-Craft Trains

So to speculate on your question, I don't think anyone has gone through the trouble to name it "An51" because "A scale" technically already exists and already specifically references the Aristocraft products of a set scale of 1:29 equipment on 45mm track even if it is not correct proportionally to the track gauge when modeling off the prototype. "G scale" being the mess it already is with several scales made by various manufacturers is enough of an umbrella term to accommodate 1:29 so I don't see there being much in a shift of nomenclature for 1:29 model trains unless it is particularly and unnaturally forced in some way.

Okay now I'm off to continue building some 1:32 turnouts (NOT 1:29 thank you very much! ;))

Best,
Mike
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wait its already a letter scale? also not just aristocraft USA trains too as far as i know the too started producing 1/29th scale models around the same time
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Greg Elmassian
AML / Accucraft has 1:29, including the new GP60
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Pete Thornton
NorthwestGarrattGuy said:
its already a letter scale?
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Many moons ago NMRA proposed a bunch of letters for 'large scale'. "A" (= American) was for 1/29th so you are on the right track. No need for the 51 - if you are modelling standard gauge you don't need a suffix.

The only letter that caught on was "F" for 1:20.3, so the modellers use Fn3 quite extensively to denote 3' gauge.

Aristocraft, after much prodding, came up with "LS29" (= A scale) which you will find on most of their later product boxes.
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NorthwestGarrattGuy
Pete Thornton said:
Many moons ago NMRA proposed a bunch of letters for 'large scale'. "A" (= American) was for 1/29th so you are on the right track. No need for the 51 - if you are modelling standard gauge you don't need a suffix.

The only letter that caught on was "F" for 1:20.3, so the modellers use Fn3 quite extensively to denote 3' gauge.

Aristocraft, after much prodding, came up with "LS29" (= A scale) which you will find on most of their later product boxes.
Click to expand...
ok so i was right i just added the n51 because its similar to what happened with O scale cause three rail is sometimes called Ow5
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T
The 'F' in Fn3 stands for fine scale, n for narrow gauge and 3 for three feet gauge.
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F
Just my two cents worth, forget the confusing letter designations just state scale and gauge then everyone understands what you are modelling and comparisons between scales is easily done.
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NorthwestGarrattGuy
ferroequinologist said:
Just my two cents worth, forget the confusing letter designations just state scale and gauge then everyone understands what you are modelling and comparisons between scales is easily done.
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i know but i like the idea of having letters for specific scale ratios
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D
I'm with Russell.
Far more understandable if you say a scale.
Tac explains what Fn3 means, but I have no idea what scale or gauge it refers to.
It could be a model running on HO track then!
Cheers,
David Leech, Canada
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T
Fn3 = F is the scale (1:20.3) n stands for narrow gauge and 3 is the distance between the rails (gauge).
The same nomenclature as HOn3 = HO scale (1:87.1) n for narrow gauge and 3 is 3' gauge.
It is a National Model Railroad Association standard. Their chart of standards has 22 categories from 1" (1:12) to Z (1:220). There are additional standards for track in each category with large scale (LS 45mm) lumped together with "varied" listed as the scale ratio. They don't address our British cousins running 16mm scale narrow gauge on 32mm track that I can see. There is also F scale (1:20.3) standard gauge which would require track with a gauge of 70.69 mm.
I googled NMRA Fn3 for this information.
Are we confused yet?
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F
This subject comes up every few years. Those starting in LS (Large Scale) get confused, and bring the subject up; a lot of different opinions get thrown into the pot, making the "Confused" become "Totally Confused"...the subject fades away for another few months, or possibly a year or two, then another "Wise Person" enters the room, and "Cornfusion" gets exercised again....
All part of the fun, and excitement, experienced in Large Scale Model Railroading.
Of course, if the Cornfused, want more Cornfusion, they just have to acquaint themselves with how the hobby treats Scale, and Gauge, over in Great Britain...
Are we having FUN, yet...?...!!! (Young Terry Foley can explain how he has fun in GB, if he cares to, between chuckles, and fits of laughter...!!)
FJM
Oh...BTW...some people in the hobby, still haven't mastered the difference between SCALE, and Gauge....that's another area of minor "Cornfusion" in some circles !!
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fredlub
"some people in the hobby, still haven't mastered the difference between SCALE, and Gauge "

This might help for those:
Gauge and Scale – Many different model trains in all scales & gauges

A free to download e-book on the subject.

Regards
Fred
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armorsmith
Food for thought ....

The majority of magazine articles,that include drawings, the drawings are frequently in HO scale (1:87). Has anyone noted that if you divide 87 by 3 it is 29? Coincidence or deliberate?
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NorthwestGarrattGuy
armorsmith said:
Food for thought ....

The majority of magazine articles,that include drawings, the drawings are frequently in HO scale (1:87). Has anyone noted that if you divide 87 by 3 it is 29? Coincidence or deliberate?
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oh i have noticed i heard somewhere that is part of how it became a popular scale
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F
NorthwestGarrattGuy said:
oh I have noticed I heard somewhere that is part of how it became a popular scale.
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Yes....Lewis Polk was heard to say that by using 1:87 as a base for 1:29 scale made his models just a bit larger than LGB's 1:22.5 scale (Often called a "Rubber scale, as LGB often stretched, or shrank their models)
...Also; in the original Aristo/REA catalogues, a lot of the pictures were of distinctly, Athearn HO scale models, subbing for products that were going to be produced.
The Polks were one of the original IMPORTERS of LGB into North America, and LGB was not producing as much North American style product for the NA Market as Lewis and family was wanting. So....They decided to bring out their own line of LS trains, and equipment.
This led to several law suits between LGB, and Aristocraft (Aristocraft was a trade name for some of Polk's Hobby Shop imported hobby equipment)
The original name Polks used for their LS trains was "REA" (Railroad Express Agency)...this was also a reason for some legal action by the actual REA trademark owners...
Others are welcome to correct this note, which is based on the failing memory of an old codger who is just trying to be helpful.
FJM
(If more accurate information is needed; try to contact a gentleman by the name of Nick Ariemma, who was associated with the Polks, during their Aristo LS years. He is a fine person who may be able to correct any mistakes I have made)
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fredlub
armorsmith said:
Food for thought ....

The majority of magazine articles,that include drawings, the drawings are frequently in HO scale (1:87). Has anyone noted that if you divide 87 by 3 it is 29? Coincidence or deliberate?
Click to expand...
Nathan Polk of Polk’s Model Craft Hobbies, with his brother Irwin owner of Polk's Hobby shop on Fith Avenue in NY, NY, imported large numbers of toys including modeltrains. When he noticed LGB trains he liked the 45 mm track but did not want narrow gauge but standard gauge trains. He looked at the Märklin line of 1 gauge trains and saw that a 1 gauge boxcar would not have the heft of a LGB boxcar, so wanted something larger. Then he noticed that he had numerous H0 drawings of stuf he imported and decided to multiply these by 3. So it is Nathan Polk that caused the whole scale/gauge problem on 45 mm gauge.

Regards
Fred
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armorsmith
What the Polk family did was just good business. Regardless of the scale/gauge mess it made. American hobbyists wanted American prototype equipment and LGB was not providing it. The Polk family did.

My post was simply to make folks aware (it is amazing how many large scale modelers do not see the relationship) of the relationship of Large Scale 1:29 and HO 1:87 equipment. One can purchase an HO model of something not available in LS, simply measure and triple the numbers.

Generally a good history Fred ... enough for this thread. As for me, I am a died in the wool Fn3 modeler, sot 1:29 does not play in my world. And if I want standard gauge equipment to go with my narrow gauge, it is 64mm gauge.
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Scottychaos
I first got into "Large scale/G scale" 20 years ago. When I first discovered that 1/29 scale trains were slightly inaccurate when it comes to track gauge, it did bother me! For about 10 minutes. ;) then I just got over it, and I haven't cared about it, at all, ever since.

I have a lot of Aristocraft and USA Trains diesels and rolling stock, and they are all beautiful models! And they are all perfectly accurate to 1/29 scale in all dimensions except one: their track gauge is slightly too narrow, their wheels are slightly too close together. But that is the only dimesion that is off, and IMO you can't even see it, and IMO it's completely irrelevant and means nothing.

Using the letter A for "A Scale" could work, but it would be the letter A only, no "n" applies, and definately not 51! ;) There would be no "n" because they are not models of narrow gauge prototypes, they are models of standard gauge prototypes.

HOn2, HOn3, On2, On30, Sn3, etc.. they are all scales modeling narrow gauge trains. When you are modeling standard gauge in those scales, you use no "n" suffix, and no track gauge suffix, it's simply N scale, HO scale, S scale, O scale. Etc.

F scale also follows this same convention: "F scale" is standard gauge, Fn3 scale is the Bachmann 1/20.3 scale models of 3-foot gauge prototypes running on 45mm track.

So when it comes to An51, the "n" doesn't apply because they aren't models of narrow gauge prototypes, and the "51" also wouldn't apply because they also aren't models of 51" gauge prototypes! ;) they are all models of standard gauge prototypes. The "51" is just an artifact of the scale's origin, it's not meant to be reflected in the scale name.. because these are all models of standard gauge trains.

IMO, while "A scale" could work, and it would be fine, it's just too late.. "1/29 scale" (I've always pronounced it "one twenty nine scale") is now well established, it works equally as well as "A scale" would, and there is simply no reason to change now.

Long live 1/29 scale! :)

Scot
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NorthwestGarrattGuy
Scottychaos said:
I first got into "Large scale/G scale" 20 years ago. When I first discovered that 1/29 scale trains were slightly inaccurate when it comes to track gauge, it did bother me! For about 10 minutes. ;) then I just got over it, and I haven't cared about it, at all, ever since.

I have a lot of Aristocraft and USA Trains diesels and rolling stock, and they are all beautiful models! And they are all perfectly accurate to 1/29 scale in all dimensions except one: their track gauge is slightly too narrow, their wheels are slightly too close together. But that is the only dimesion that is off, and IMO you can't even see it, and IMO it's completely irrelevant and means nothing.

Using the letter A for "A Scale" could work, but it would be the letter A only, no "n" applies, and definately not 51! ;) There would be no "n" because they are not models of narrow gauge prototypes, they are models of standard gauge prototypes.

HOn2, HOn3, On2, On30, Sn3, etc.. they are all scales modeling narrow gauge trains. When you are modeling standard gauge in those scales, you use no "n" suffix, and no track gauge suffix, it's simply N scale, HO scale, S scale, O scale. Etc.

F scale also follows this same convention: "F scale" is standard gauge, Fn3 scale is the Bachmann 1/20.3 scale models of 3-foot gauge prototypes running on 45mm track.

So when it comes to An51, the "n" doesn't apply because they aren't models of narrow gauge prototypes, and the "51" also wouldn't apply because they also aren't models of 51" gauge prototypes! ;) they are all models of standard gauge prototypes. The "51" is just an artifact of the scale's origin, it's not meant to be reflected in the scale name.. because these are all models of standard gauge trains.

IMO, while "A scale" could work, and it would be fine, it's just too late.. "1/29 scale" (I've always pronounced it "one twenty nine scale") is now well established, it works equally as well as "A scale" would, and there is simply no reason to change now.

Long live 1/29 scale! :)

Scot
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well n51 denotes the off gauge since its 51 scale inches in 1/29th scale
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