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Posted By cubythewater on 05/02/2009 10:14 AM
Isn't that article from January 2007?


Why, yes it is!


-Brian
 

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This is a highly dubious argument. There is no lack of bandwidth, it's that internet service providers want to find a way to charge us more.


Think about it--why don't cable TV providers make the same argument, and try to charge you more for watching more? They don't have to, because the more TV you watch the more ads you watch. But the internet was designed to be free--it was designed as a free (meaning taxpayer subsidized) way for physicists and Defense agencies to share the use of supercomputers. It has no "front door," no "top". That's why, for example, it's hard to keep images from being simply appropriated. The internet was designed not as a profit making scheme, but as a way to share defense related info in a network that could not be easily "taken out" by the Russians, because it had no central core, no "headquarters."

This is frustrating to ISPs, because they realize there is heavy use and it's going to get heavier and they want a way to secure a bigger profit. The broadcast model, where ads pay for the service, seems to be working but they think they could make a lot more if they started "metering."


If I were king, I'd commit taxpayer dollars to improving the internet and making access as free and and widely available as possible. It's done a great deal of good. Not only online communities like this, but also online political communities and public interest informational sites. Not to mention how much has the internet boosted commerce?



But that;'s probably too much of a political discussion--in the meantime, I just tend to be very wary and very skeptical about this kind of argument. \They floated in back in 2007, and it didn't fly, but it will be back, I proimise
 

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If I were king, I'd commit taxpayer dollars to improving the internet and making access as free and and widely available as possible.
Me, I'd commit America heavily to the space program, both unmanned robotic missions and to returning men to the moon and going beyond. Not only would it be a huge boost to the economy and create jobs, it also spurs technical development and science like nothing else. Estimates are that every dollar invested by the U.S. in space exploration returns around eight-dollars in economic benefit. An there are many additional reasons besides economic... it inspires kids to study science and math, can promote peaceful international cooperation towards common goal (in "2001: A Space Oddessy", A.C.Clark wrote about space exploration, "Man had finally found something as exciting as war!"), promotes advances in medical technology, advances national prestige, advances our knowledge of our own planet and biosphere by giving us something (other worlds) to compare it to (fundametal to gaining any real knowledge about anything), and may ultimately save us as a species though colonization and not "having all our eggs in one basket", and all with very little downside.

Is it dangerous? Absolutely, and lives have been and will be lost. Such has always been the case when exploring new frontiers. But the people who take those risks do so knowingly and voluntarily, and for peaceful purposes.

Most importantly, it offers the possibility of answering questions man has asked since the dawn of time. Who are we? Why are we here? Are we alone?
 

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It's a sales pitch. Invest your money with me because I/we can see into the future.

Craig
 

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Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/02/2009 10:41 AM
{snip...} Is it dangerous? Absolutely, and lives have been and will be lost. Such has always been the case when exploring new frontiers. But the people who take those risks do so knowingly and voluntarily, and for [peaceful purposes[/b]].

That is the only part of what you've said that I don't think you'll find support for across all of mankind's history, and as technology advances the control that governments have enjoyed thus far, will diminish.
 

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I was talking of the people who will go into space. Admittedly, the original Moon Race was spurred on by the need to develop ICBMs, and any space effort by any nation (USA, Russia, China, etc.) will have National Security implications, but on the whole, people who voluntarily become astronauts/cosmonauts/whatevernauts and go to the Moon or Mars aren't going for the primary purpose of weapons or war. :) mho.
 

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Dwight

I understand, what I was referring to was the higher level of entry by private enterprise into the arena, resulting from the lessening of the requirement for access to special launch facilities. The associated conflicts that arise from competition when great reward is at hand. I'm not saying that this will result in open warfare (well maybe, but not in the conventional sense anyway
), but I don't think it would classified as peaceful either.
 

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Posted By lownote on 05/02/2009 10:30 AM
This is a highly dubious argument. There is no lack of bandwidth, it's that internet service providers want to find a way to charge us more.


Think about it--why don't cable TV providers make the same argument, and try to charge you more for watching more? They don't have to, because the more TV you watch the more ads you watch. But the internet was designed to be free--it was designed as a free (meaning taxpayer subsidized) way for physicists and Defense agencies to share the use of supercomputers. It has no "front door," no "top". That's why, for example, it's hard to keep images from being simply appropriated. The internet was designed not as a profit making scheme, but as a way to share defense related info in a network that could not be easily "taken out" by the Russians, because it had no central core, no "headquarters."

This is frustrating to ISPs, because they realize there is heavy use and it's going to get heavier and they want a way to secure a bigger profit. The broadcast model, where ads pay for the service, seems to be working but they think they could make a lot more if they started "metering."


If I were king, I'd commit taxpayer dollars to improving the internet and making access as free and and widely available as possible. It's done a great deal of good. Not only online communities like this, but also online political communities and public interest informational sites. Not to mention how much has the internet boosted commerce?



But that;'s probably too much of a political discussion--in the meantime, I just tend to be very wary and very skeptical about this kind of argument. \They floated in back in 2007, and it didn't fly, but it will be back, I proimise





I don't think there is any lack of band width either. Technology advancement in splitting frequencies, multi-plexing and all that grows exponentially. New equipment is obsolete the day it hits the market.

Remember when a 4.8K dial up modem was the cat's meow. This stuff now is pure magic to me.


Thought the Gov't had something like $32B earmarked for internet upgrade in the stimulus bill. That's fine. My only concern is where the money goes. I would not want it going into public libraries so more people can waste time NOT reading good books.
 

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Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/02/2009 10:41 AM
If I were king, I'd commit taxpayer dollars to improving the internet and making access as free and and widely available as possible.
Me, I'd commit America heavily to the space program, both unmanned robotic missions and to returning men to the moon and going beyond. Not only would it be a huge boost to the economy and create jobs, it also spurs technical development and science like nothing else. Estimates are that every dollar invested by the U.S. in space exploration returns around eight-dollars in economic benefit. An there are many additional reasons besides economic... it inspires kids to study science and math, can promote peaceful international cooperation towards common goal (in "2001: A Space Oddessy", A.C.Clark wrote about space exploration, "Man had finally found something as exciting as war!"), promotes advances in medical technology, advances national prestige, advances our knowledge of our own planet and biosphere by giving us something (other worlds) to compare it to (fundametal to gaining any real knowledge about anything), and may ultimately save us as a species though colonization and not "having all our eggs in one basket", and all with very little downside.

Is it dangerous? Absolutely, and lives have been and will be lost. Such has always been the case when exploring new frontiers. But the people who take those risks do so knowingly and voluntarily, and for peaceful purposes.

Most importantly, it offers the possibility of answering questions man has asked since the dawn of time. Who are we? Why are we here? Are we alone?


I am with you on that. We are losing a generation of intelligent, creative kids really fast.
 

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where I am at in vargina metrocast the only cable company wants $5 a foot to get me cable for internet, the cable run is 2500 ft.that comes out to $12,500. Verison, said we do not have FIOS in that county. A T1 would cost me $450 a month (yes I did look)
I would love to see some of the stimuless money used to get broadband out in to areas where the ISP's will not spend the $$ to up grade the infostructure to be able to provide service.
 

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I'd commit taxpayer dollars to improving the internet and making access as free and and widely available as possible


To get back to the subject (not that I'm against stimulating kids' minds and getting more math/science graduates,) there is a whole argument about 'utility service' versus 'commercial'.

A few years ago, the 'competitive local exchange carriers' all failed because the local telephone companies owned the wires to your home - a very substantial investment that no-one wanted to replicate, and no community wanted to duplicate for aesthetic reasons. There was a very good case to be made for splitting the wires out of the telephone co, and making them a local utility, just like the electricity and water, and the telco could offer switching using those wires in competition with anyone else who wanted to install a switch (VoIP, cable co?)

The same argument can be made for 'the internet'. The wires (which carry the info/content/ads) ought to be a utility, owned and suppoerted by tax dollars so we can all share the benefits. The content (Google searches, email, online movies, internet radio) could be free, ad-supported or subscription, as it is at the moment.

Your ISP should perhaps be a regulated utility, allowed to make a minor profit but responsible to a local board who make sure we get good service at minimum rates.

Unfortunately, although that's what a lot of other countries do very successfully, the concept is 'anti-american', 'anti-capitialist' and too 'socialist' for most folk around here. Personally, I think it's time this country grew up and decided that a little socialism is a good thing.
 

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Posted By John Roppel on 05/03/2009 8:56 AM
where I am at in vargina metrocast the only cable company wants $5 a foot to get me cable for internet, the cable run is 2500 ft.that comes out to $12,500. Verison, said we do not have FIOS in that county. A T1 would cost me $450 a month (yes I did look)
I would love to see some of the stimuless money used to get broadband out in to areas where the ISP's will not spend the $$ to up grade the infostructure to be able to provide service.







Ever see that PBS advert where the fellow talks about being up on a power pole and saying "Maybe were were too young to be scared."... and "We were just bringing power to light the porch light."

I remember the tail end of those days and that is exactly what the mentality was... just bring power "to light the porch light"... look what it is now.


Sounds like it is time to create a counterpart to the REC (Rural Electric Cooperative) and form an RIC (Rural Internet Cooperative).
 

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Me, I'd commit America heavily to the space program, both unmanned robotic missions and to returning men to the moon and going beyond. Not only would it be a huge boost to the economy and create jobs, it also spurs technical development and science like nothing else. Estimates are that every dollar invested by the U.S. in space exploration returns around eight-dollars in economic benefit. An there are many additional reasons besides economic... it inspires kids to study science and math, can promote peaceful international cooperation towards common goal (in "2001: A Space Oddessy", A.C.Clark wrote about space exploration, "Man had finally found something as exciting as war!"), promotes advances in medical technology, advances national prestige, advances our knowledge of our own planet and biosphere by giving us something (other worlds) to compare it to (fundametal to gaining any real knowledge about anything), and may ultimately save us as a species though colonization and not "having all our eggs in one basket", and all with very little downside.


Fully agree. I would argue that the internet itself, is, in a sense, a product of the space program. Getting a viable long term lunar base up and running would be a nice goal for the next decade or so; after that, look into getting a settlement established on Mars. For those willing to thing ahead in terms of centuries rather than decades, terraforming Mars might be a good long term project.
 

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Posted By ThinkerT on 05/03/2009 2:12 PM


Fully agree. I would argue that the internet itself, is, in a sense, a product of the space program.











That's a stretch I think. It's a product of the Cold War, and so was the space program, and so was the Vietnam War. The Cold War was the precondition that led to the spaced program, and the internet was invented to research nuclear physics/nuclear defense, not space exploration--although NASA did get involved later
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
 
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