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Square Nuts & Bolts

11K views 41 replies 17 participants last post by  bnsfconductor 
#1 ·
I've done a search and turned up nothing on the forum and I've done a Google search with no luck.

I'm looking for some miniature "square" nuts and bolts. I know they exist, because I have some right in front of me. Without putting a mic on them, the bolts are approximately 1mm in diameter and about 5mm long. The nuts are 2mm wide across the face.

A freind sent me a sample that were part of set that consisted short pieces of 5mm high rail and fishplates with the nuts and bolts to join them together. He has no idea of their origin other than Europe.

I have found the "simulated" nuts and bolts, but that is not what I'm looking for. I prefer the real thing.

Any leads will be helpful. Thanks and regards to all . . . . Ken
 
#2 ·
RE: Square Nuts & Bolts

Ken,
Sometime back in the early days of LS a fellow in Switzerland made perfect scale fishplates, tie plates, nuts and bolts. Didnt las long cause the price was too high I guess. Would be a bargin today. Also some one in Oz made a track system which I believe used the type of nuts and bolts you are looking for. They folded also. I have been looking for square washers and got a couple in a Micorfasteners order. Asked them for more and they never came across. You could talk to them. Real long shot though.
Noel
 
#4 ·
Noel . . . . I think the ones I have actually did come from Switzerland. I'm wondering if David Fletcher might have heard of the folks down in the Land of Oz.

Bruce . . . . I found the site you mentioned this morning when I was doing a Google search. The only thing they have that are square are "simulated" nuts and bolts.

Thanks for the help . . . . Ken
 
#6 ·
Ken,

I hesitate to suggest this, but if you had square stock and a lathe, you could make your own.

Or, buy the round stock of the std diameter closest to what you want, thread it with a die, then take the square stock of the dims you want, center-drill it for a tap size, then tap it out and cut it to width. Or, thickness. Tedious, I know, but doable. You'd solder half the nuts to the threaded stock for bolts. Or glue/locktite 'em, if you want. (I'd solder 'em).

You wouldn't really need a lathe, but that'd make it infinitely easier. And you'd have what you want.

Of course, if you do this, you risk blindness & insanity.


Also, be aware that old flat nuts had a mild radius on one side--supposed to be the outside. The face against the washer was flat.

Les
 
#8 ·
Hi Les . . . . I laughed when you said "I hesitate to suggest this, but . . . . Actually, I have thought of that, or at least something like it. I have found threaded rod the size that I would need and I could drill and tape some square brass rod, and like you say solder a nut onto one end to make the bolts. But that would be rather tedious and time consuming. I don't have a lathe, which would help tremendously.

I have this feeling that the square nuts are "out there somewhere" and I just need to find them. Just think, if I can find the nuts, with those and the threaded rod the rest would be a breeze.

At least now I know that I am not alone as someone who comes up the "these ideas" and isn't afraid to give them a try. Thanks for you input and support . . . Ken
 
#10 ·
Ken,

I'm glad you got a laugh, any way. I'm a retired tool & die maker. I've made lots of threaded parts over the years, so it's a natural thought for me.

I too suspect those nuts are out there. Finding 'em will be the trick. I'm looking also, even though I have a small lathe--it's a lot of work to make 'em up.

Consider/investigate using the really sturdy Locktite in lieu of solder. I'm no longer familiar with the various grades, but I'll bet there're a lot of guys on this board who are.

Opps, wife's rattling my food dish...

Les
 
#13 ·
Jim . . . . Scale Hardware has some great products, but these are the folks with the "simulated" square nuts and bolts.

RJD. . . . Can you be more specific about this Bob Bits of Lynn Creek, MO? My search under Bob Bits has turned up nothing. Do you have a web-site or a phone number?

Thanks and regards . . . . Ken
 
#14 ·
RE: Square Nuts & Bolts

I started a thread on this awhile back. Mostly what I use are 1-72 scale nuts by Walthers. With them I use a K and S 1-72 die
to make threaded rod. I bought some regular 1-72 hex nuts onle to find that hole thruogh them is bigger than the hole in the Walthers scale nuts. I've looked over numerous tap drill and die charts but never found the answer. Has anyone else experienced this?
 
#16 ·
Jim . . . . Check the list again. The only "SQUARE" nuts and bolts are simulated. The "real" threaded nuts and bolts are HEX head.

Chris . . . . You may be onto some there. I think I have located some threaded round-head bolts that will work for me and I might just be able to fabricate some square nuts. You've got the wheels to turning a little. I'll let you know what I discover.

Ken
 
#18 ·
Chris,

I think I was one of several who answered. I opined that you might have metric threads on one. You'll need a mike and a pitch gauge to find out what you have, as far as I can think at the moment. All that is on ebay for pretty reasonable prices. Or a dial caliper might even be better.

Les
 
#22 ·
Hi Les . . . . Just a curiosity question for you since you have machining experience. If I had some 0.080 square brass rod, how difficult a process would it be to cut little slices off the rod that are 0.030 thick. I could then hold them with some pliers, then drill and tape them as needed to get my square nuts. Mind you, I just scheming.

I have found some 00-90 thread round-head "bolts" that will work for one-half my application.

Chuck . . . . Phi's Narrow Gaugel only has simulate "square" nuts.
 
#23 ·
Pardon my butting in, but it is best (and a bit easier) to drill a hole in the end of the stock and tap it, then cut off the nuts. The major problem is the extreme waste in this method. The curf is wider than the resulting nut you cut off the end.

I have done this (ONCE!) and I had a problem keeping the hole centered for any useful distance down the middle of the rod; thus I could get maybe 6 or 7 nuts at a time with a good centered hole, then the rest were too far off center (for me!) so I cut the already drilled rod off and started over. I also found that effectively ruining a length of threaded rod helped... I screwed a threaded rod into the hole and cut the rod up as I was cutting the nuts off, this kept the holes round and the starting threads cleaner, but it was often difficult to remove the small plug of rod from the resulting nut!

I have wondered if it might be easier to thread a bunch of washers, put them on a threaded rod, and then mill the resulting assembly to a square shape. Or cut a sheet of the proper thickness (you said 0.030) to the correct size and drill & tap the resulting pieces
 
#24 ·
Posted By Kenneth Milner on 11/14/2008 4:09 PM
Hi Les . . . . Just a curiosity question for you since you have machining experience. If I had some 0.080 square brass rod, how difficult a process would it be to cut little slices off the rod that are 0.030 thick. I could then hold them with some pliers, then drill and tape them as needed to get my square nuts. Mind you, I just scheming.

I have found some 00-90 thread round-head "bolts" that will work for one-half my application.

Chuck . . . . Phi's Narrow Gaugel only has simulate "square" nuts.

Ken,

Weeellll... doing it with hand tools is possible and may be your best option. I assume you don't have a lathe or know anyone who does.What you can do is make yourself some sort of clamp-on guide for hacksawing. You have to clamp the brass anyway, so killing two birds with one stone ought to be doable. I assume you do have a bench-mount vise. If not, you can use a clamp on type, or even a big clamp from the edge the workbench to the far side of the wooden clamp-guide to hold the brass inside the guide to do the sawing.

The guide can be any block of wood that will fit in your vise/clamp setup. Drill an undersized hole and file out or haggle out to just take your squarestock. Note: if you make the hole too big, or it gets sloppy, you can cut a slot in one side or both for 'compressability' to squeeze the stock tighter. All you care is that your stock doesn't move around after you've clamped it.

Next, lay off (mark) one line farther away than .030". That's so if you wobble or miscue with the hacksaw, there will be enough material to file (dress) the nut blank to the thickness you want, and incidentally, get rid of the saw marks. You'll have to do this on each side after the first nut blank, all the subsequent ones will have saw marks and will therefore have to be thicker than your finished dimension. And the amount you mark off must take into account the kerf, the width of your hacksaw blade. Be sure to use the finest-tooth blade you can find, or a jeweler's saw blade. Make sure the blade is darn near as tight as a fiddle string in the saw frame, you don't want flexing of the blade. Make slow, steady cuts.

Don't put a fine finish on your blanks, after you get them sized and reasonably parallel to each other. Because now you need to mark for the center by drawing a line from each opposite corner, so you end up with an "X" in the middle. If you're off a tiny bit, it won't really matter, so long as you don't get too far out. Now, take a sharp-pointed metal punch (grind it down to a pencil point if you have to) and mark your center with a light tap of the ballpeen hammer. Use a light hammer, in any case--a claw hammer isn't exactly what you need. Now, look and see how far off the X you are. A tad, you say? Well, not to worry: just take the punch, angle it in the direction you want to 'move' your mark, and tap it again. You can 'walk' your mark to where you want it. Within reason. Satisfied now? Okay, put the punch in the mark and tap it harder to make a good crater. Doesn't have to be deep, just enough so your drill bit won't want to climb out of it.

Is your drill sloppy? Does it have sideplay? If so, you'll just have to live with it. Now, brass is 'sticky' or 'buttery'--it wants to cling and move rather than cut. A common machine-shop practice is to lightly dull the drill bit, works wonders, but on the sizes you'll be drilling, don't. Just use some light oil (3-in-1 is okay) and drill as carefully and perpendicular as you can. Take your time, those tiny bits flex. A feather-touch is what you're after. This is why a $50 Asian benchtop drill press is a good deal. They rarely have the slop in the chuck a hand drill has.

Well, I see I didn't explain how to hold the tiny nut blanks for drilling. (Old guy syndrome). Two ways leap to mind: drill a blind hole (one with a bottom) in a different side of your first blank. No need to waste wood. Now, take your piece of square stock--or you could even use one of your tiny nut blanks, and whap it hard enough to put an impression as deep as the nut is thick into the board. Now you have a nice nut-blank holder, except it will want to crawl up the drill bit. I'd use a thumbnail to keep the little rascal in place, drive and bend a small finish nail so it swings over and puts some pressure on the nut. In any case, before you drill you want to make sure that nut is not cocked off level. If it is, drive it down in the high place. It is important that hole goes in as straight up and down as you can get it. Go right on into the wood at your first nut that you drill. (the sacrificial one. The one you make all your mistakes on). Go perhaps 1/4" or so.

Now, take the nut out of the square hole. Might have to use an ice pick (ground down flat 'n thin) and gently pry it out. Remember, you want that hole to last before you have to drive another. You'll see that hole in the wood you just drilled. Now put a bigger drill in there, bigger than the tap, and there you have clearance underneath so your tap doesn't get fouled with wood chips 'n whatnot.

There you are, off and running. Don't get frustrated if you fail on a few. Especially if you make half a dozen great ones and then a bad one shows up. Change the drill bit. Rest. Get untense. check all your clamping and saw blade and everything. Then go at it again.

To tap USE OIL. Best if you use tapping fluid, but not necessary. Kroil is my choice. WD-40, etc will do. Do NOT put your tap in the hand drill. USE a TAP WRENCH. Start your tap carefully, making sure it isn't leaning. This is as much a matter of feel as anything. Good eyes help too. Twist it perhaps 45 degrees, and back it out. DON'T take the tap out of the hole. Now, advance the tap 45 degrees past where you were, or less, depending on how much 'pull' you're getting. Breaking taps is the only way I know of to learn how much is too much. I can say, if you advance only 45 deg or less at a time,before backing up, you'll have more luck in the long run. This backing up is calle 'chip breaking' or 'chip clearing'. Your tap will dent to crowd up with material. YOur threads will be nicer if you do it this way, too.

Don't buy cheap taps or drills. The good ones are only slightly more expensive.

Now, you're all done, and you have a handful of beautiful square nuts. If you want true historical accuracy, you need a shallower square hole and a very fine file followed with crocus cloth or aluminum cloth to put a very slight 'curve' to the outside face of the nut. And polish it. Lastly, drag each edge of the nut over the fine cloth enough to but a tiny bevel on it. Just the side that will show should be okay. Now you've got about as good as can be bought, anywhere.

Hope this helps.

Oh, the only thing a lathe would do for you is to make the 'parting off' cuts faster and cleaner, and you could center drill the stock for a good ways to eliminate hand drilling. Accuracy would probably be only slightly better for the purposes.

Les
 
#26 ·
Hi,

I think square nuts were very common before WW 1. If you look at vintage horse drawn coaches and carriages, they are held together with these.
If I remember right, I have seen these in the catalogues of UK model makers.

OZARK offers these in whitemetal in different seizes. Most US trestles were held together with sqare nuts.

Have Fun

Fritz / Juergen
 
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