Craig

When the feed mill was built in the 30's, grain probably arrived in boxcars. When covered hoppers became more widespread (the 50s?) grain probably also came in covered hoppers. Shipments out probably went out mainly in trucks and maybe boxcars. Try a Sandborn Insurance map for a reasonable plan view. Maybe contact the local library. Ask around see if you can talk to people who worked there that are still alive. Are there any footings in place left? Is there a local newspaper? They might have pictures or information.

Terl

 

In Canada, covered hoppers did not come into general use for grain until the mid 70s. Boxcars, especially single sheathed outside braced cars were used widely with grain doors inserted until covered hoppers became universal. The American context saw covered hoppers a bit earlier but certainly grain boxcars were still in use into the early 70s as covered hoppers became more abundant.

Regards ... Doug

 

I'm modeling 1970 so I assumed that some grain shipments were still in boxcars. If I remember correctly this feed mill shipped out to the local farms by truck, so they only recieved inbound shipments, althought it would seem logical that an occasional load would be sent out. My idea was to have spot a mix of 40' boxcars, and covered hoppers. I did find an aerial photograph of downtown Redmond taken in 1969 that barely shows T & D Feeds, and from the picture it looks as if they have spotted a 2 bay covered hopper, and a 50' car either boxcar, or hopper. I'll have to see what
Growing up in the area I wish I would have taken photo's of the place before it was torn down. Now all that exists is a large hole in the ground. I think my best source of information is the Washington state archives. I'm waiting to here back from them, but they have records of building permits, construction plans sometimes, and building footprint and an occassional photograph. It'll be interesting to see what I can find. From the pictures I have now, and my failing memory I could make a semi-accurate model, but I want a little more detail.
How do you get Sandborn Insurance map?
Craig

 

Craig

If you've got a King county library card you could try this. Scroll down to the 'S' section then click the Sanborn Maps link.

KCLS Database Access[/b]

 

I went looking for the location of where I obtained my interest in steam locomotives... (a bus station in Seymour, Indiana in 1949 where one "jumped out" from behind the bus station blowing its whistle and scared this little 3 and a half year old "airborne" into Granddad's lap!).

I went to the Jackson County library in Seymour and they had "fire insurance maps" (or some such thing) on microfilm reels.

These maps were not very well done. They were "neat", and I suppose accurate, but it appeared to me that someone took a large piece of paper and went to various street corners, faced some arbitrary direction and sketched on the paper the streets and businesses that could be seen. Then they went to some other corner and faced again some random direction and on some other section of the same sheet of paper drew the scene before them. One of the streets might be the same as the previous drawing, but on the paper it might be at any angle compared to the other. There would even be some overlap in the various drawings on the single sheet of paper.

These maps were drawn about every 7 years. Unfortunately for my particular quest, the one that should have been made in 1949 was missing, so I only got some hints of where things were. But it was interesting to note that the RR's seemed to build sidings for businesses as needed and if the business left, so did the siding! I could see a siding in one area and the next map it would be gone, but there would be another one on the opposite side of the mainline. Then on the next map that one would also be gone and another added a few blocks away.

I spent some time interviewing folk that might know where the Bus station was, but memory being what it is, I seemed to create more arguments about it and whether it was over "where the Dairy Queen used to be", or what they tore down to build the old grocery store that is now the furniture shop..."No, that burned down." "No it didn't that was the cleaners." "No the cleaners are still there and it was never a Dairy Queen."

More people remembered the "new" bus station which I am sure was not built when my memorable incident occurred.


I also read several history books on the area. I knew that the weather on my memorable occasion (also known to be a Friday) was hot and rainy so I got microfilm of the newspaper for the year I figured it had to have been and looked for the weather reports. I was able to narrow it down to one of 3 dates, but my quest failed when I could not prove the building I found (just out driving around) that looks right (and some later claimed was a bus station at one time), ever had a RR track behind it (daing missing map!).

Good luck in your quest. Check the local library. And have fun looking at newspaper articles, too. I spent HOURS reading the headlines and major articles from 1949-1950 (learned all kinds of interesting stuff!). I was also able to prove it was not the "NEW" bus station (now a realtor's office) since it was not opened until after any of the dates the incident had to have occurred on.

 

Steve,
I've got a King County library card too. I found some information, but the map they have is 1926-1930 when I believe the T & D Feeds moved accross the railroad tracks. From the maps it looks like the depot moved too. But not enough information, but worthwhile.
Craig

 

Craig

You most likely have already got the following, but on the outside chance you don't here are some links I ran across.

Grange Co-Operative Co., Redmond ca. 1895[/b]

Redmond Depot - Interior ca. 1913[/b]

Redmond Depot ca. 1960[/b]

Redmond Depot ca. 1970[/b]

Have you tried the... they say that they've got thousands of photographs.

Eastside Heritage Center[/b]

Walking tour pamphlet T & D Feeds page 17, item 23.

Redmond Historical Walking Tour Brochure (PDF format 2.2MB)[/b]

 

Steve,
Those are the few links that started me on my search. I contacted the Eastside Heritage Center a while ago, and they were the ones who put me in touch with the state archive office. I also contacted the Redmond Historical society too.
From the pictures I've found it looks like the Redmond Depot was moved, or lowered at some point in its history. If you look at the first photo of the Redmond depot notice how high the platform is in relation to the ground level. In the more recent photo's the depot has no platform, but the loading dock in the 1970's photo seems to suggest the original platform height. Also the location of the depot, or the railroad tracks seems to move in the Sanborn maps.
When I first started researching this project I was trying to decide what era to model, or more specifically what year. Now I now the Redmond Depot was torn down sometime after 1970, most likely in '72 from a newspaper article headline I found. I've got to make a trip to the Redmond library to read the article, but hopefully it will lead to some more clues. Because I want to model the early BN days I've narrowed the years to between '70 and '72.
Isn't prototypical modeling fun?
This is what I like about modeling- the research and building part!
Craig

 

Craig

Yes sir, I also really enjoy doing research on different topics. One thing that I've discovered is that since railroads were such an integral part of the development of our country it's intertwined with just about every aspect that you can imagine, which takes one in many unexpected directions.

While I realize that the following doesn't directly relate to your current research on T & D Feeds, I figure that they might be of interest to you anyway.

The following USGS maps are really good for there detail regarding the placement of the railroads. They are however, a bit different than the more modern quadrangle maps that are 7 1/2' x 7 1/2', because these older maps are 30' x 30'.

The link below will take you to the USGS Topo Map Index, where you can click on the respective named maps (see below list) covering the Redmond area. After clicking the desired map on the index. When the screen refreshes, click the map link. When the next page displays, click the link to the right of the label 'View Map Image:' After the next page displays you can use the tools on the map (i.e. scroll down to see the instructions) to enlarge and navigate the map. There is also a link where you can download the MrSID map file if you want, that is if you have the room on your system to do so. The other thing is, to view the MrSID map off-line you'll need to download and install the MrSID browser plug-in, no big deal but required.

Washington State University - Digital Library
USGS 30' Quadrangle Maps for Washington State[/b]
Snohomish - 1895
Sultan - 1921
Tacoma - 1909
Cedar Lake - 1913

The following is an interesting reference for any one interested in the BNSF railroad, and any of the respective railroads that were any part of any railroad that was part of any of the mergers, acquisitions, reorganizations that ever took place leading up to the current BNSF existence.

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association
BNSF Track Segments Reference v9
File Type: PDF - File Size: 3.9MB
Left-click to open - Right-click to download[/b]

The following is another photograph of the redmond station taken in 1963 by J.M. Fredrickson. It is very similar in orientation, to the one pointed to in the above reply taken in 1970. However, this one shows a bit more of the right end of the T & D Feeds buildings.

Well that's it for now, when I run across something else that's interesting I'll update the topic. Hope I don't bore ya.

 

I have had great success with Sanborn Maps. The maps in our area are amazingly detailed and accurate. These are maps prepared for insurance company rating purposes. Older maps are now in the public domain and are often available through University or State libraries for a small copying charge. The maps in our area were drawn every 5 to 7 years. The maps supplied tremendous detail such as the number of windows, type of material the building was constructed of, and if it had a boiler or other machinery inside. Many maps name the specific use of the building. The maps here told me that a small outbuilding had changed use from a Railroad electrical repair shop to an office. The wood footings are still here and the dimensions and location were spot on.

Get the maps on either side of your target year. They will provide valuable clues as to what was going on in the area. Was occupancy stable or changing? Changing how? Was there new construction, additions, or demolitions? Were construction materials or number of windows changing? (Brick, wood, stone?) Sometimes the maps were drawn by different people and have additional details on your target building too.

Also check business directories. The precursor to phone books and Thomas' Register these books often had large advertisements with engravings of businesses and prominent buildings. They also frequently announced new services such as the construction of a nearby depot to encourage business to come into an area.

Some areas of the country had specialized directories of Architects and master builders to promote their businesses. These specialty directories frequently list recently completed, prominent, buildings and newly acquired commissions. They occasionally include engravings or photographs of completed projects.

If the building had a clock tower make sure to check the Thomas Clock Society. Thomas Clock Company printed directories of tower clocks with some illustrations and other key information such as architect or master builder and some statistics on the building such as height and main materials for construction. These directories were used to attract future business and act as a catalog of capabilities. The clock tower in our town is listed as having an automatic coal "gas" lit dial that would illuminate the clock dial at night and turn off the gas flow in daylight hours. This would be a great detail to model (and easy to do with electric).

Genealogical Societies have a wealth of information and photographs. They're unpredictable but can be a gold mine of pictures and original papers and maps. Family information about key railroad employees such as a telegraph operator or engineer can add great depth to your back-story for your models. Some of these items can be modeled. In the late 1800's our local station master's wife was known for her flower gardens at the station. They frequently won best kept station awards from the railroad company because the flowers so pleased the Railroad company and its customers. Gardens at the station would not show up in maps and predated most photographs of the area. This family information provided a great detail that is worth modeling.

Churches are often the repository for local history as well. This is especially true if the clergy has an interest in railroads as well as their members. We got news at our local railroad historical society this month that a local church was looking for help going through over a 1,000 photographs and negatives of railroad subjects. It seems the clergy had been collecting and keeping railroad photos for the last 75 years or more. The minister has moved on but the pictures remained behind. Now the Church Board needs help organizing and identifying them. There's always somebody that collects photos or old postcards. Ask around and then go for a personal visit.

Check with the local newspaper office or library/archives for old newspapers or microfilm of newspapers. A prominent building here in town was built in 1883 when local businessmen complained in letters to the editor about the old building serving this purpose and petitioned City council for a new building to be built at taxpayer expense. The controversy, including petition, was printed in the paper. The City built the building. The paper covered its construction and opening ceremonies a few months later. The paper also covered the sale of the old building. There was good info. for a model on both buildings.

Some papers were desperate for anything to fill their pages and would print construction contracts and similar detailed information that was customarily filed with the county or city clerk's office. A local paper here printed the entire budget for a building being built in 1900's including prices, quantities, and named every tradesman and contractor on the job. The local bank ran advertisements after it was completed complete with detiailed drawing because they had financed the construction project. 50 years LATER the same paper ran a "remember when" feature story complete with a photograph of the older building.

Check with the state archive to see if the State purchased land or provided direct funding for the railroad. This often created a duty to report to the legislature, and these reports are usually retained forever. Our local railroad single handedly funded the public education system for the State for about 30 years through passenger and freight taxes and therefor the Railroad had to keep very detailed records and report annually to the State legislature. Some of these reports were brief but others detailed every structure built and every foot of track layed or ripped up.

Many buildings were built using pattern books rather than full plans. A master carpenter could adapt patterns (illustrations and basic dimensions) from a book to local use. If you don't have specifics, you might be able to use a pattern to create your model. If there is no pattern book for your structure, then find contemporary sources on similar buildings and local materials. The National Historic Register of Historic Places and the Historic American Building Survey (HABS) has free measured drawings available online.

I have found some great public domain books on Google books including one from the 1800's instructing railroad superintendents on how railroad structures were then being built around the country complete with dimensions, location references, and materials used.

Have fun.

 

To all,
Thanks for the information. Keep it coming. I just heard back from the Redmond Historical society and they have a few photographs of T& D Feeds and the Depot in thier collection. They said they would email them to me. I'm just hoping that they are different then the ones I've found so far.
Steve,
Were did you find the photo by J.F.? Was it in one of his many books? That photo might be the key to figuring out the railside of the structure. Although it doesn't show everything, it gives a big clue to whats there. I thought I saw a silo in my aerial photo, but couldn't quite tell. That photo confirms that!
I looked at the Sanborn maps the other day that the library had online, and I was kind of disappointed. I might just have to place a phone call to the library to see if they have more maps on microfilm at the library.
Craig

 

Craig

I found that photograph while looking through the Northern Pacific Historical Association in the...

Jim Fredrickson's Photo Collection[/b]

I took another path, following the Seattle, Lake Shore & Eastern Railway's history, which is the railroad that originally built the rail line that passed through Redmond (i.e. Salmonberg (prior to 1881) - Melrose (1881) - Redmond (1882)).

 

Hi Craig,
The local tax assessor may have photos and building dimensions in his tax files. Our state requires the local property tax assessor to have a fairly detailed file on each property to back up their estimate of valuation for property tax calculations. Most of the assessors take photos to prove they actually went out the to the site. The file is not updated very often, unless a building permit or change of ownership occurs. Many assessors wait between revaluations and just adjust values by calculations. Even so you might find a few gems in those files.


You might also check with local professional property appraisers. Professional property appraisers compare several buildings of a similar type for bank loans and establishing sale prices for businesses. Even if T&D didn't get an appraisal it may have been used as a "comparable" (similar) property when creating appraisal for another such business in the same market or geographic area.

Good luck.

 

Steve,
Thanks for the info. The Lake Shore and Eastern was a small line! I've lived here all my life and I didn't even know about it until a few years ago, when I was reading about the development around Lake Washington. I finnally heard back from the state arI'chive office. They pulled the records for the property from 1937-2003. So I would assume that T & D Feeds was moved in 1937? if the archives has a record of a building? They wouldn't tell me much about what the photographs are, but I figured at .25 cents a page it was a lot cheaper to have them mail a copy of the archives, then go and visit in person, and then pay the .25 cent charge to walk out with them. I'll be waiting for the mailman now!
Craig

 

Craig

I don't know, but from what I've learned thus far about the SLS&E Rwy., maybe gauging the respective size by the aggregate miles of track the SLS&E Rwy. one could say it was small, but it seems that strategically it was most important. Much as the Seattle & Walla Walla Railroad and Transportation Company was when the Northern Pacific Railway decided on Tacoma as their terminus, which in turn exacerbated the competition between Tacoma and Seattle as the major center of commerce in Washington state.

The SLS&E had a goodly amount of trackage laid from Seattle to the north end of Lake Washington and down its eastern shore, also from Woodinville in mostly a northern direction toward Sumas and the proposed connection to the Canadian Pacific Railway at Mission B.C. Then there was the beginnings of the Spokane to Seattle branch (mainly Medical Lake to Davenport), but then the Northern Pacific Rwy. was getting involved so it's hard to distinguish which should get credit for what.

Not that I'm inferring there was any intrigue or collusion or anything in the building of the railroads, mind you.

However, it sure is interesting to discover just how things came about, it's back to what you were saying about research being fun.

 

Craig

Here's a copy of a plat map from Redmond dated 1891 relating to the property where the train station was located and it looks like that it was pretty much located in the same location and position that is shown in the more modern photographs. Note that it references the SLS&E Rwy. and not the Northern Pacific Rwy. since the N.P. take over didn't take place until I believe 1892. Also note who the land is/was owned by, the gentleman that the town was ultimately named after.

I've also dug up a couple of more modern survey documents regarding the land that T&D Feeds sat on (i.e. 23-OCT-2006 & 08-JUL-2008), let me know if you want me to upload those too so you can copy them.

Redmond Plat Map
File Type: PDF / File Size: 133KB
Left-click to open - Right-click to download[/b]

Document Detail
Instrument Number: 1891051178328
Sequence #: 0
Date Received: 05/11/1891 12:00:00 AM
Document Type: PLAT
Book: 007
Page: 074
Consideration:

Grantors
MCREDMOND, LUKE

Grantees
NONE

 

Steve,
Thanks for the information. I don't think a plat map of T &D Feeds would help much because the buildings were torn down in 2001, so a 2006, or 2008 date would not be useful. Actually the plat map that you pulled up shows the plat of T & D Feeds (although it's not labeled, or purchased yet). I can tell by the shape of the plat, and the location of the two streets, Cleveland St and Leary Way.
Thanks
Craig

 

Craig

Yeah, the 1891 plat map even predates the Co-Operative I believe, and records where Luke McRedmond gave the land to the town of Redmond.

You are correct, the records show the current land use as commercial vacant land, but I figured if nothing else if you've got the boundaries of the lot lines you'd have some idea of what size the demolished buildings would have had to fit within. However, if the copies that you receive have the buildings shown you've got it made.

 

Steve,
When I first started, I looked at the property records and was able to access the tax assessors information, and the ownership rights so I was able to figure out the parcel numbers of the property. This is what the archive office used to access their archives. Another useful tool I've looked at so far was Google Maps, street view. Although the buildings are torn down it gives a prospective of what I remember. It would be a better if google had historical photo's like that! For more modern structures or ones that have not changed recently it is a good source of information.
The local history of Redmond is quite interesting regarding Luke McRedmond. The old Redmond Schoolhouse is still standing and is in use by the city today. Not to many other structures from the founding of the city are still around. It's mostly condo's.
Redmond use to call it's self the bicycle capital of the world, but now it's better know for that computer giant.
Craig

 

Craig

Yeah, at least from what I've picked up over the Internet. It seems that the original name reference for the settlement was Salmonberg, then when Warren Perrigo built the "Melrose House" inn people took to calling it Melrose, later in 1881 when Adam Tosh was appointed as the first postmaster it was officially named the Melrose post office. Then in the following year Luke McRedomnd was appointed the postmaster and petitioned for the name change to Redmond.

Oh, so that's where that garage start-up finally set up shop, eh.

 

Update finally,
I just got my package from the state archive office and received 88 pages of documents regarding the property for both T & D Feeds and the NP ROW. Ironically I added a couple of other property requests that border T & D Feeds and the NP ROW, and I found out that the owners (NP) leased their land to T & D Feeds and a lumber yard (Gossards Lumber, which was also torn down recently, '05? '06). Now I have at least some information about the property and the buildings, including photographs. Although the photo's aren't large I can get a general idea. I suppose I might have to make a trip to the archive office and see if I can copy the photo's in a larger format, or see if they have the negatives. I think the photos are only 4x5 if that. But they show details that I other wise would have to guess about. After just looking at the papers, I noticed that one of the assessors made a notation about T & D Feeds. He wrote something along the lines of multiple buildings built together, in poor construction, no permits issued for construction. He also noted that the unloading shed was built 6' on to the NP ROW, which was leased to T & D Feeds. There is one photo of the unloading shed, and it actually shows 2 boxcars being unloaded or on spot! What a score! Most of the notations discuss the poor quality of the buildings, and the lack of interior. Most of the buildings are corrugated aluminum, with one being a combination of aluminum and wood. Another structure across the street was cinder blocks. Among one of the notes was that a 2 story storage shed was built on the property, but was not in use because they did not have an elevator to move product to the 2nd story.
As for the Redmond Depot, many of the same notations; poor quality construction! Including was a different photo of the depot, with T & D Feeds in the background (very similar to JF photo).
Next step, draw out some scale drawings of what I have. I think I'll make them in Ho scale. Any tips on how to use 'known' dimensions to create 'unknown' dimensions. I was thinking of just estimating various sizes of windows, doors, etc based of the overall size of the buildings.
Craig

 

Hey Craig

That's sounds like you got a good percentage of what you were looking for.

Don't know if the following is what you're looking for but hopefully it will be of help to you.

MLS Article - Doing Take-offs from Photographs[/b]

Using GIMP's Perspective & Measuring tools to Take Measurements From Photographs[/b]


Another example of using GIMP to extract trackwork from a photograph[/b]

GIMP is a freeware graphics editing program, which if you don't have it can be downloaded from the following link. Of course if you've already got Adobe PhotoShop you can use that instead.

GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program)[/b]

 

Steve;

The GIMP sounds like an interesting program, but I can't find anything about how to install the program.
The downloadable files end with file extension of ".tar.bz2". What is that stuff? Pardon my ignorance of programs.

 

Posted By Richard Weatherby on 28 Sep 2009 10:52 AM
Steve;

The GIMP sounds like an interesting program, but I can't find anything about how to install the program.
The downloadable files end with file extension of ".tar.bz2". What is that stuff? Pardon my ignorance of programs. Richard

If you are running MS/Windows (XP, Vista) what you want is the familiar installer program version found at the following link.

GIMP v2.6.7 - Windows Installer[/b]

The GIMP Documentation is On-line.

GIMP Documentation[/b]

The files that you are talking about are actually the source code for the program and would need to be compiled to work for you (i.e. converted to the executable files you're used to seeing), if you've downloaded those just delete them from your system.

 

Many THANKS, Steve!!!
It works great!! Thanks for this great tool!!
Having an architectural background, I have reverse engineered many building over the years, BUT I was doing it based upon the reverse trigonometry of the perspective process.
This software as well as Photoshop (which I have not mastered) allow you to warp the photo into a flat plane and take direct measurements.

Now if people would just take more photos of the back of buildings.
Thanks again!!