[jfrank]

I have always liked running my C21, perhaps because it is somewhat of a compromise between the smaller C16 and the K series engines. The only problem was it always seemed to lack any guts and my C16 could pull more cars. I had always attributed this to it being a piston valve engine. This last Diamondhead I happenned to ask Dave about it and he told me that it had smaller cylinders than a C16 and that he had bored his out to 3/4" cylinders and it made a completely different engine out of it. After I got back home I sent Dave an email and asked him if he had the time would he fix mine like his. Well.......when I got this engine back I was amazed at the difference. I believe it will out pull my K27. The engine has amazing low end torque and will pull stumps out. The larger cylinders also make it run slower, but now it marches up any grade with ease. I put three videos out there on You Tube if you want to look at them. Dave says he will do this mod for anyone that wants it. The locomotive is never more than half throttle in these videos. I picked places where there is a slight grade so you can hear it dig in for the pull. The engine simply will not stall. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YUipuCsJ6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq88foLhGz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhHxxvtYugs

 

[Dwight Ennis]

Very cool John! I always like the C-21 as well. Maybe I should get Dave to punch mine out too!

Did Dave also put o-rings on the valves?

 

[jfrank]

Posted By Dwight Ennis on 05/10/2008 7:05 PM
Very cool John! I always like the C-21 as well. Maybe I should get Dave to punch mine out too!
Did Dave also put o-rings on the valves?




No Dwight, he said it wasn't necessary on my engine although he as done it on others. He did install his chuff enhancer and I believe he rebushed some of the rods and also replace all the o'rings on the piston and valve rods. Obviously he tuned it up as you can hear and it runs just as well in reverse.

 

[Gary Armitstead]

John,

What a sweet running engine! That enhancer in the smoke box makes a big difference in the "bark".

 

[Tom Burns]

Ok, I will take the bait and ask the stupid question. In 3 out of 3 shots your engine pops off 5 seconds into the clip. Was this your Las Vegas luck or were you actually trying to time your shot.

Tom

 

[jfrank]

Posted By Tom Burns on 05/11/2008 3:18 PM
Ok, I will take the bait and ask the stupid question. In 3 out of 3 shots your engine pops off 5 seconds into the clip. Was this your Las Vegas luck or were you actually trying to time your shot.
Tom




I noticed that too when I was taking the shots. I think the engine is just a camera hog and likes to show off. Nope I did not try and time it. It just happenned. But, it makes a good video doesn't it.

 

[Dave -- Use Coal]

Very nice John. I look forward to seeing the engine run "in person."

I do have a question for the manufacturers --- If the engines can perform like yours, why don't they make them like that in the first place? It seems to me that you should not have to pay a pro to make modifications and do tune ups to make the engines run "right." I must say that I have never run into this with Roundhouse engines. Must be why the expression "Nothing runs like a Roundhous." stays in vogue. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif

Dave

 

[jfrank]

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 05/12/2008 9:53 AM
Very nice John. I look forward to seeing the engine run "in person."
I do have a question for the manufacturers --- If the engines can perform like yours, why don't they make them like that in the first place? It seems to me that you should not have to pay a pro to make modifications and do tune ups to make the engines run "right." I must say that I have never run into this with Roundhouse engines. Must be why the expression "Nothing runs like a Roundhous." stays in vogue. " border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blink.gif" border=0>
Dave




Excellent point Dave. I have asked that question myself. I don't know what they are thinking sometimes. One difference between Accucraft and Roundhouse is the variety and diversity of models by Accucraft while Roundhouse never really gets outside of a very narrow band of models. Hence they have perfected their design over the years and it is a good one. Also, Roundhouse does not make "American" prototype models other than the Sandy River. I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models. The idea behind the C21 was to make an inexpensive large engine that more people could afford. But if all they had to do was make the cylinders larger to get better performance you wonder why they didn't do it from the beginning.

 

[Charles]

John and Dave
I have to agree with both of you as to Accucraft production standards.

Yet, I am not sure about "I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models," for I believe the is a difference between hearing and listening. They might "hear" (a physical process) us but to really be a good listener(mental process) then one would not allow similar mistakes/short cuts to continue from one production model to the next regards base line designs.

I "hear" that they guarantee satisfaction...listening to customers seeking satisfaction would result in Accucraft "fixing" a base line engine into "nothing short of excellence regarding the product and support we provide to all our customers before, during and after sale."

 

[Steve S.]

Well I saw this Dave Hottman cylinder bored out, running gear adjusted C21 at my track today. All I can say is WOW!!!!!! And this is coming from an old Accucraft trouble maker......./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/blush.gif. This C21 now runs like a Swiss watch, and pulls an incredible amount. I never thought I would say this about a Accucraft engine,..... but,.............John, I will be happy for you to store this engine at my house so you will not have to lug it over each time. Like my offer to Ed, I will supply butane and steam oil for free. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif

 

[JEFF RUNGE]

So is this C21 now a "HOTTUCRAFT" engine/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif

 

[jfrank]

Posted By JEFF RUNGE on 05/13/2008 9:01 PM
So is this C21 now a "HOTTUCRAFT" engine/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif" border=0>




Yes. Maybe they should route all future production engines through Dave on the way to the customer......except I don't think Dave wants to see a truck full of 200 engines pull up to his house one day.

 

[Kovacjr]

Now all the C21 needs is to breathe easier with larger piping and passages.....Then you should see an even larger improvement

When I made 1/2" cylinders for the Ruby I noticed that yes it runs slower and has more power but it is slower cause it cant get the steam fast enough into the larger cylinder to make it 100% That was my reasoning behind the K28 mods.

 

[Dave -- Use Coal]

After STEAMING AT STEVE'S on May 13 I am considering ordering an Accucraft K-36.

I never had a desired for an Accucraft engine as it always seemed to me they do not have the performance they should have. At Diamondhead it seems to me that the "engineers" spend an awful large amount of time fiddling with their engines. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif

If someone can guarntee me that the K-36 will perform "out-of-the-box" as well as Tom's and John's engines were yesterday and will continue to do so for many hours of run time I will order one for sure. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif

Tom and John your engines really look and run great. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif

 

[Dwight Ennis]

Yet, I am not sure about "I do notice that Accucraft listens to it's customers and tries to correct past mistakes in it's future models,"
I don't know Charles. Consider that the 4-4-0 has the first metered lubricator. In this instance, Accucraft listened to their customers and gave them what they wanted - metered oil - despite their concern for people running their products dry and damaging them, thereby creating warranty and "satisfaction" headaches for Accucraft. They are also producing a Mason Bogie AND a 4-4-0 - primarily because their customers requested them.

The C-21 was one of their early locomotives too. If memory serves, the Ruby, Shay, and C-16 were its predecessors. I believe they are learning as they go, and applying what they learn to future models. The GS-4 was their first foray into alcohol-fired locomotives. Time will tell if what they learned from that experience is included in future alcohol-fired releases.

There is also a trade-off in cost vs sophistication. They use piston valves when they are trying to keep the cost down, and slide valves where cost is somewhat less of a concern. It's up to the individual whether or not one chooses to purchase a particular loco.

MHO

 

[jfrank]

Posted By Dave -- Use Coal on 05/14/2008 8:34 AM
After STEAMING AT STEVE'S on May 13 I am considering ordering an Accucraft K-36. " border=0>" border=0>
I never had a desired for an Accucraft engine as it always seemed to me they do not have the performance they should have. At Diamondhead it seems to me that the "engineers" spend an awful large amount of time fiddling with their engines. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/plain.gif" border=0>
If someone can guarntee me that the K-36 will perform "out-of-the-box" as well as Tom's and John's engines were yesterday and will continue to do so for many hours of run time I will order one for sure. " border=0>/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/shocked.gif" border=0>
Tom and John your engines really look and run great. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif" border=0>" border=0>" border=0> /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/wow.gif" border=0>




Dave, if you really want one of these you need to get your order in soon as the price is sure to go up. I believe you can pre-order it for $4,500. After production they will be $4,750 or more. If there is a problem with your engine you can always send it to Hottman for a tune up. As for getting many hours of run time, I can only say all mine are still running after many hours of fun.

http://www.accucraft.com/index.php?show_aux_page=53

I ordered mine from Greg at Rio Grande Southern RR Hobbies in Ridgeway. He is still listing it for $4,300 with a $400 deposit.

http://www.rgsrrhobbies.com/index_files/Page2732.htm

 

[weaverc]

Dave,
Consider the K-36 carefully because it's gonna be a BIG locomotive as you can see in Jon Kling's picture below of the K-27 (far), K-28 (center) and K-36 (near). I have enough trouble lugging my K-27 to the track, so I changed my mind about ordering a K-36 and opted for a K-28 instead, an excellent running and good looking lomotive. I'm not trying to change your mind, just want to warn you about the size and weight.

 

[David BaileyK27]

When I took delivery of my first C21 it would not pull the skin off a rice pudding ( UK xpression) so as some of you are aware I converted it to slidevalves with Stephenson valve gear, bored out the cylinders to 3/4" and fitted a coal fired boiler, all new larger steamways, axle pump and metered oil supply, it would then pull as much as my own K27 and C25.
No doubt some of you remember it winning the pulling contest at Diamondhead in 2005.
My second C21 I am converting the cylinders the same way ( I took a set to Diamondhead 3 years ago and showed Dave Hottman) maybe this gave him the idea to bore out his own, the boiler will be a new gas fired boiler with a ceramic flue burner, it has been on the bench for some time now due to making over 50 boilers last year, but I may find time to complete it this year as I am cutting down on my shop time due to my back problem.
I am glad that Accucraft are listening to their customers and improving their loco's, I have a Mason Bogie on order and already have 4 coal fired boilers part completed, only waiting for the engine to arrive so I can check if they fit before I complete them.
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk

 

[jfrank]

Posted By David BaileyK27 on 05/14/2008 10:28 AM
When I took delivery of my first C21 it would not pull the skin off a rice pudding ( UK xpression) so as some of you are aware I converted it to slidevalves with Stephenson valve gear, bored out the cylinders to 3/4" and fitted a coal fired boiler, all new larger steamways, axle pump and metered oil supply, it would then pull as much as my own K27 and C25.
I am glad that Accucraft are listening to their customers and improving their loco's, I have a Mason Bogie on order and already have 4 coal fired boilers part completed, only waiting for the engine to arrive so I can check if they fit before I complete them.
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk




David you do some beautiful work. My C21 has one of your sight glass/blowdown valves mounted on it and I love it. I couldn't go all the way with this engine as you did, but just the boring out seems to have alleviated the problems with power. Thanks for everything you do for the hobby and keep up the good work.

 

[Dave -- Use Coal]

Carl,

Thanks for the comparison picture.

David,

A coal fired K-36 sure would be nice./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif However, I doubt whether I can afford it or, at my age, if I could take the wait time./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/crying.gif

Guys,

I can only run one engine at a time so I would not be lifting the a K-36 very often.

I am not going to be making a decision on ordering a K-36 for at least a couple of months. If I order I will beat the November First special order requirement./DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/doze.gif

DAYoung
Santa Fe, Texas