[JEFF RUNGE]

Based on the way MOST people drive they are not interested in saving money when it comes to driving. They still average 10 mph over the posted 65 mph posted speed limit. That extra 10 mph reduces their milage buy at least 2 mpg (5 to 10 %) Some people are not directly effected buy the gas prices, the have enough money or don't drive enough for it to have an effect. They WILL be indirectly effected sooner or later. My 1st class membership renewal... sorry it's going in the gas tank to get to steam-ups this year.
Most people say the gas price is a result of supply and demand, but from where I sit it looks more like a result of the those with the money and insite making tons of money in the commodities market. ?
In this economy I'm just happy to be working ! I don't see anything happening to make me think things are going to get "better" any time soon. Will we have a short recession.. I hope but with energy and food prices increasing as fast as they are I fear we are just getting started. It may be time to sell off the rental house and put the money in the bank... but I may suffer at TAX time ????
Speaking of TAXES they re-assessed my house again.. the second time in less then 5 years, up another 30 grand WTF, guess I'll have to raise my tennants rent by $50.00 a month to cover the tax increase.. no, no $100.00 a month Have to plan ahead for the next tax increase..
OK END of RANT, I feel better now! Thanks for listening.

 

[Mik]

Posted By vsmith on 05/13/2008 9:00 AM

If it gets less than 15mpg, you ARE the problem.
..... There are alternatives out there.

$5 this summer, ready for it?




First, I need a VAN or TRUCK to haul my biz stuff to shows. I've been trying to use Kim's car as much as possible at other times, but it doesn't get very good mileage either.
Second, the public transportation system here does NOT go where I need to go (like work) WHEN I need to go there. It is also MORE expensive (even with a pass) than putting gas in the van.
Third, as I said before, there is simply NO MONEY available to replace either vehicle. Living just a smidge above the poverty level sure ain't fun.


It's REAL easy for rich city folks to point fingers.... They have more choices, and banks will loan them money.

IMO the "problem" is a society that does NOT pay enough for "essential" workers (teachers, farmers, nurses, truck drivers, and yes even garbage collectors) to live on and conversely hugely rewards people who shuffle money, play kid's games, or etc. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif

 

[markperr]

Depending on your point of view and who you listen to, you can either blame the gas guzzling crowd and their mega trucks or PETA and the Sierra Club and their environmental activism.

My take. Why haven't we built any new refineries since 1976? Why must we have so many different formulas for gasoline each summer? Why aren't we building nuclear power plants? After all, it's the cleanest burning form of fuel.

We complain about jobs being outsourced to places like China but we still buy Chinese goods. The Chinese are experiencing unprecented growth in their economy as are the Indians. Their combined populationa are eight times that of the U.S. They are gulping not only petroleum but ALL commodities at an excessively high rate, but their economy requires it as an outgrowth of it's expansion.

This situation is highly complex and personally, I believe, it's a little naive to blame someone because of their personal choice in transportation.

If you really want to hedge yourself against rising oil prices, buy oil stocks.

mark

 

[cmjdisanto]

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[Mik]

Posted By terry_n_85318 on 05/13/2008 4:14 PM
One thing to consider -- In the 70's the cost of gas was 0.50 / gal and the hourly wage was $5 and hour. Wages have gone up faster than the cost of gas and the ratio is lower now.





Um, hello. I make $7.15 an hour. A GOOD paying job in this area is $10-15/hr and gas is $3.759 this morning...just HOW is that a lower ratio? New Math?

 

[markoles]

Just my opionion, but I don't think we'll see much in the way of new nuclear power plants. Sure, it is the most efficient way of making energy with the lowest environmental impact, but who wants a nuclear plant in their backyard? The regulations and hoops a power company would have to jump through to get permitted usually means that power generation is done by burning coal and then cleaning the fumes with a wet scrubber.

I'd love to see someone build a power plant in California. Coal, Nuclear, or anything else.

I was thinking a little bit last night on my drive home about riding a bicylce the 52 miles roundtrip to work and home. I'm not concerned about physically making the trip. I have a very light road bike with slightly knobby tires (it is technically a Cyclocross bike, used for racing road bikes off road. I've never used it for that, but it goes fast on packed cinder rail trails, etc..). Riding that bike at 18-20 mph is not much of a challenge, and I've had her up to almost 40 on a long downhill. I'm already conditioned as a long distance runner, and converting myself to a long disance cylcist would not take too long. But I was thinking, how much money would I really save by riding? See, riding that far twice a day would result in higher food consumption by me. I'd have to start eating high energy foods, or more high energy foods! I could see my food intake double, especially if I take the logical route and consume Power Bars or other energy bars that taste nasty but pack a whollop. That might cost me more than gas! The upside of riding to work every day would be increased healthiness (unless I get hit by a car). The downside would be an additional 2 hours of commuting time and higher food bills. We have facilities at work where I could get showered after the ride, so my co workers wouldn't be subjected to working with a 'more' stinky guy.

Mark

 

[vsmith]

The other negative for nukes is that they require a rather large water supply for cooling. With the prolonged drought in many areas of the country rivers and resevoirs are at all time lows, not the best place to build something that needs lots of water for cooling, so ocean front plants and largest river locations like the Mississippi River may be the only really vaible locations, and as you say, no one wants one in there back yard.

 

[terry_n_85318]

Mik,

Depends on your occupation and location. If you choose to work and live where the wages are lower, don't complain. If you want to make more money, then you will have to move to where the good paying jobs are. The choice is yours.

Terry

 

[cmjdisanto]

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[Guest]

cmjdisanto,

i think you err, if you compare the upcoming times with the depression of the 30ies.

then they had a deflation. nobody had money, but money did buy every- and anything.

now your problem are the many dollars, your federal reserve printed (or just programmed in computers).
there are too many dollars, compared to the assets or productions of the US.
in the recent past, about 80% of all dollars were outside the US. (china alone holds more dollars, than the US brutto product of a year is)
now the foreign holders of all those dollars are starting to buy with them - in the US!
as a result you got too much dollars in the country.
as a result you will get a nice little runaway inflation to cope with.

that means, everybody has to change habits.
my experience with inflations in south america (we had more than 30% annual) says, that those who are dependant on fixed monthly income (employees and pensioners) are in the deepest sh...
simple labour will get paid dayly, so they can buy dayly at least their food.
monthly pay will not keep up in speed with the devaluation.
small businesses and retailers will have to change prices weekly, to meet the costs of restocking.
those with some money to spare will start to buy things instead of having bank accounts, to preserve value.

believe me, that will be a very different from the great depression.

 

[terry_n_85318]

Life is about choices -- Where you live, what tye of work you do, and your education to list a few. If you set your mind to do something, you can do it.

Sure, moving is tough, but if you want to improve your quality of life for your family you need to do what needs to be done. If that means going to night school or whatever, you do it If you are happy with your present situation, then you stay where you are.

Don't complain about your status if you aren't willing to make the required changes, whatever they may be.

Terry

 

[Mik]

Terry, it IS about what is BEST for my family. My parents live here, my grandmothers live here, my children live here with their mother. The roots run deep, and I care about more than just "me". Yes, I made that choice. Am I wrong? If I am (IMO) society is sick.

Then there is the fact that I am on disability. So I am quite limited in the amount I can make BY LAW. Think of it as a fixed pension with even less money. It would take a REALLY good job with excellent bennies to pay for the meds and other stuff I need everyday.

Add to that the fact that places with better job markets also have MUCH higher costs of living. My little brother moved to South Carolina for better work 20 some odd years ago. Except he continues to find that "right to work" mostly means some weasel has the right to come in and underbid him on his job right after he EARNS a raise and then he has to start over again. So what real choice is there in that?

Like I said, easy for rich city fellas to point fingers.

 

[terry_n_85318]

Uncalled for personal attack. Define "rich". If I make fifty cents more an hour than you, is that rich?

It still comes down to choice whether you like it or not.

Terry

 

[Dougald]

Guys

Let us keep this discussion away from the personal. The current economic climate affects us all in various ways and it is recognized that some are affected more greatly than others. But this is not the place for semi political crusading against Big Business nor for remarks which may be construed as persoanl attacks.

The discussion to now has been spirited but civil - let us keep it that way.

Regards (with my moderator's hat on) ... Doug

 

[vsmith]

BTW I'm not rich either, if I was I wouldn't be bashing $40 HLW Macks and $5 Scientific frieght cars, I'd be completing my complete collection of Accucraft and Roundhouse live steamers! For every one driver that has a legitimate reason for owning such a large vehicle, there are 100 who dont have any other reason than to stroke their own egos.

I see a parking lot of giant shiny polished chrome wheeled SUVs and trucks every day, each with a single occupant, slogging their way into work after their 1hr commute. Even this type of vehicular stroke-my-ego behavior is NOT what I was referring to, it was the overtly verbal whining crying of people complaining that they have to live in a capitalist system where the world market dictates gasoline prices that I just want to stuff their whining pie-holes with a large sock full of horse manure. I really think there are some people out here who live in a fantasy world and truely beleive that there's no reason we shouldnt have 30 cent a gallon gas just like Venezuela or Saudi Arabia.

The irony is that most of the people who drive these types of vehicles are clearly of the means to trade it in for a more efficient car, but they would rather pay thru the nose to keep the Bling-bling image than be seen in something less desirable. Thats fine with me, I think people should drive whatever turns them on, I just wish they'de keep their pain-at-the-pump to themselves.

The thing is when one can see an issue that will become a problem in the future, one has two choices, try to address it, or ignore it. Most people with these large vehicles choose to ignore the issue, hoping that the Blue Fairy would appear, save Pinnochio and make gas prices go back down at the same time, and now they're having to deal with the new reality.

When gas prices first hit the fan and I realized that for simple economics, I really needed to dump my less than 2 years old truck, but I had to wait until I could swing a deal thru my credit union where the amount I owed on the truck equaled the blue book trade in, so it was essentially a wash to get rid of it, and I still had to bite the bullet and get a loan thru my credit union to buy my Scion. With gas prices the way they were, no one was going to buy my truck for more than blue book so trade in was the best option for me.

All the people who bought the first hybrids and other smaller cars are now in a much better position and even if gas prices continue to spiral upwards, are going to have the last laugh...yesterday cost me $40 to fill the tank, used to cost only $25 when I first got it, am I going to complain?, nope, cause it would have been $90+ on the truck. Even if it goes to $60, It will hurt, but $60 is far better than $130 now isnt it?

PS Mik, if by any chance you can swing a replacement car, I highly recommend looking at a Scion Xbs, it has more interior cab room than my Nissan Fronteir pickup had, and with the rear seat down, ALOT of cargo room, and they've been around for a while so used ones are not hard to find, just trying to help, being on a fixed income really stinks when prices start climbing or unexpected bills happen, I used to be self-employed and hurting for money during the last bad recession in the 90's. I know about trying to make $40 last a week. It sucks.

 

[terry_n_85318]

V
If you work out the numbers, it takes a long time to break even on the cost of trading in your vehicle and buying one of the more fuel effcient vehicles. If you take the cost of a gallon of gas divide it by the difference in gas milage you get Dollars per mile. Take the cost of the new car - trade in and divide by the dollars per mile. You will get the number of miles you need to drive to break even at the current cost of gas.
I have a full size pickup, I only put ~ 8000 miles a year on the pickup. I live two miles from work and I use less than a gallon of gas a day to go to and from work. I know the cost of the driving a vehicle that only gets 18 mpg, but I can live with that.
I don't expect to get gas at 30 cents a gallon. With India and China in the equation now, the free market determines the cost of the fuel. Until the US can use the resources it has, the price will be going up to a point where the market will stabilize between supply and demand.
The only one entity that is making an obscene profit is the Government -- they do no work but get 20% or so of the cost of a gallon of gas.

On a previous post I referred to $5 hour wage. At that time the minimum wage was $1.70 an hour and the cost of gas was $0.50 / gal. Today the cost of gas is ~ $3.50 and the minimum wage is between $7 and $8 an hour. The ratio moved up a bit, but not that much.

Terry

 

[Road Foreman]

Vic,

Check out Pebble Bed Reactors for a waterless power plant!!

BulletBob

 

[Rayman4449]

No doubt it's a multifaceted issue. One key issue is, the known world reserves of oil peaked around the late 80's early 90's and we are on the downward side of the bell curve. With this fact plus China and India coming up, we are going to rapidly run out of crude oil. The politicians and oil companies know this and like it or not the market is what's going to and is driving the innovation and push to other forms of energy... i.e. high gas prices. It's an unfortunate truth that few people will look for more efficient vehicles or alternate forms of powered cars like all electric (which is how I want to go soon for my commuting back and forth from work) unless they are forced to. As I see it, there is really an incentive to raise and keep the prices high now to get people moving off of crude oil energy. It's not going to be fun, but it has to be done, so in some ways I'm glad to see prices have stayed up there. There are a lot of new types of vehicles about to enter the market, some all electric etc. One company is talking with paring with a new startup working on a Hyper capacitor that would allow for a 100mile or so travel and a recharge rate of 4-5 mins. You could stop at a station, plug in and be gone in minutes.

http://peakoil.com/index.php - this site indicates US production peaked in the 70s and has been going down ever since.

 

[thekollector]

Posted By vsmith on 05/14/2008 4:09 PM

All the people who bought the first hybrids and other smaller cars are now in a much better position and even if gas prices continue to spiral upwards, are going to have the last laugh...




Yep! right up until they have to replace the battery pack. That ought to get their attention!

The battery material is mined in northern Canada, shipped to England for refining and then shipped to Japan for production. Pretty fair carbon footprint before it rolls a foot.

Jack B.

 

[East Broad Top]

A few thoughts...

1) Repealing--even temporarily--gas taxes does nothing. New York State did that back when we were complaining about $1.55/gallon, and distributors almost immediately jacked their prices up, claiming "rising prices." Keeping the taxes in place takes away the distributors' headroom, and also keeps money in the bank to fund road projects, which are already under-funded as it is. New shocks and struts every year cost more than I'd save without the gas taxes.

2) The "slow down to save gas" theory is fuzzy math. Yes, you burn more gas, but you burn it for a shorter period of time. The practical fuel savings is pretty much a wash. I recently had a rental car that displayed instantaneous gas milage. At 75mph, it registered 22 mpg. At 65, it registered 23 mpg. No matter how I altered my highway driving, my average milage stayed within 0.2 mpg over the course of a few days. You'll improve your milage more simply by making sure your tires are properly inflated, and accellerating slowly at intersections.

3) The SUV argument--Those who say "ditch the SUV" obviously forgot what it was like to travel with children (or travel through 18" of snow because the city doesn't plow your neighborhood streets). It is simply not a practicality. There's a reason the family station wagon was a staple in the 70s. My SUV gets 18 mpg. Even if I were to get a car that got twice that milage, by the time I pay for maintenance and insurance--to say nothing of the car itself--my cost savings disappears very quickly.

3a) I could trade the SUV in for a more efficient model, but seeing as how my car is paid for, I'd have to add the car payment (and added insurance costs) to my monthly budget.

My suggestion--buy oil stocks. Get your gas rebate through the back door.

Later,

K