[Greg Elmassian]

I would put a plastic safe lubricant designed to reduce or eliminate corrosion. Lewis Polk has long recommended CRC 2-26, a plastic safe precision lubricant, "electical grade". I agree.

From the can: "lubricates, cleans, and protects" , "leaves a thin, molecular, non-hardening film" ..."combatting the return of moisture and corrosion".

I had a loco (Aristo) with rusted wheels (plating worn off) and sprayed it liberally on the wheels and ran it, all the rust was gone in just a few laps.

(of course I needed to clean the wheels and rails of all the junk removed)

Try this on your contact "drum" and it was available here at Home Depot.

There are FOUR screws that attach the pcb board (that the socket is attached to) to the metal plate. The plate appears to be "L" shaped and the forward end takes a 90 degree bend down into the rear of the frame. I cannot see where it is attached either.

Regards, Greg

 

[pimanjc]

Jerry,
You don't have to tear down the loco to use a reed switch ILO the drum. Hook the two wires from the reed switch to the two screws that hold on the wipers. You need to remove the wipers for this operation. I either used super glue or Locktite Stick and seal glue for the wheel magnets [2 at 180 degrees].

Somewhere there is a thread about this conversion, but I have no idea where it is.

JimC.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Now that I have a lathe, I'll try putting magnets in my drum.

One great advantage of locos made this way is that there is not a huge amount of side to side "play" in the drivers, so the relationship between the magnets and the reed switch is no problem.

Therefore you are not forced to put the magnets on the tender pickups, and you can get exact chuff timing.

Regards, Greg

p.s. Jerry, removing the bottom cover is easy and safe.

 

[Jerrys RR]

This photo (I think it is Jim C"s) seems to show that two screws should extend down far enough to be secured possibly without removing the cab.
I will try to get to it tomorrow to see what I find.

If I do go with the magnets I think I would prefer to put them (if possible) on the axle rather than the wheels. The wheels tend to be much more exposed and increase the chance of knocking them off.

I have some 3M super glue I may try if I go that way.

As for lubricants my normal preference regarding train stuff is LGB oil but if I went to the CRC type I would use 3M 5 Way Spray (since I sold it for many years in competition with CRC). The problem with CRC or 3M 5 Way is that they are a penetrating lubricant that could work their way to thin the grease lubricating the axles plus they also tend to attract dust and would probably be harder to remove if I wanted to glue magnets in place. I think the LGB oil would be less inclined to migrate away from the brass strips and contact wires possibly making it easier to remove if I go the magnet route.

Of course I have predetermined prejudices regarding my preferences for and against lubricants so I am not open minded in this area.

My first choice would be to try to get the Accucraft chuff contacts to work rather than to have to replace them.

Thanks,

Jerry

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Oil will not work as well as the CRC, the crc is designed to leave a film.. oil is oil.. it has no "brains"... it will spread out since it stays as oil, not a thing coating designed to stay in place.

Yes, maybe the 2 other screws go all the way through the pcb and the spacers and the back end of the frame, it was getting dusk when I looked at it.

Well, I gave you my best advice... I'd have a self limiting film over oil migrating wherever it wanted to go..

By the way, lube the axles with heavy gear oil, not grease.

Regards, Greg

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 Sep 2010 08:51 PM
well, I gave you my best advice... I'd have a self limiting film over oil migrating wherever it wanted to go..

By the way, lube the axles with heavy gear oil, not grease.

Regards, Greg

Hi Greg,

I appreciate the advice. Our (my) actions are less a reflection on the value of the advice as much as a response based on our (my) personal life experiences and what happens to be readily available. I do understand how lubricants work. I was the 3M factory rep (including our line of 3M chemical products) for all or part of 5 States. In addition to 20+ years of selling 3M chemicals and other products for what they were designed I also have 20+ years of using 3M products for a wide variety of applications they were never designed or intended for.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/

Sometimes I choose to use what I have in hand rather than something I would have to go out (gas $$) and buy.

Thanks, I really do appreciate all information whether I end up using it or doing something different because new information expands my options.

Jerry

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Not trying to fight Jerry, just can't understand the LGB oil over a product apparently designed for (at least pretty closely) the purpose you want. In my experience a thin film of oil will pick up more dirt and grit than one of these type spray coatings.

Maybe I don't understand lubricants as well as you do, but I've definitely had many years of experience using these lubricants on trains and other equipment.

But any way, the real proof for your specific application will be trying it and seeing what happens. i.e. if contact reliability is increased, and if so, for how long.

I did this experiment on my K4 and nothing seemed to last a long time. Some chemicals, like Deoxit made a huge difference, but Deoxit is my "magic" find.

Regards, Greg

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 08:55 AM
Not trying to fight Jerry, just can't understand the LGB oil over a product apparently designed for (at least pretty closely) the purpose you want. In my experience a thin film of oil will pick up more dirt and grit than one of these type spray coatings.


Regards, Greg

Hi Greg,

At this time I am not looking for the best long term solution but rather a short term test for practicality.

3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26 are very similar products designed for virtually identical applications.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQGLE0_nid=3WTFXNJG23be2VP2LSN43Qgl
3M 5-Way Penetrant[/b]
Displaces moisture and dries out electrical apparatus. Helps prevent shorting and increases conductivity. Inhibits rust. Frees rusted bolts, lubricates and cleanes, drives out moisture. Also excellent as a tapping liquid for stainless steel and aluminum.

http://www.crcind.com.au/catalogue.nsf/web_brands/CRC+2-26?openDocument
CRC 2-26[/b] displaces and seals out moisture. Prevents corrosion, cleans, lubricates, penetrates. CRC 2.26 is a stable, inert organic formula , especially prepared to prevent and repair electrical failures due to moisture, corrosion, dirt or friction. Contains no silicones. Non-flammable.A '6 in 1' product:
1. A moisture eliminator - for wet equipment.
2. A moisture barrier to prevent trouble before it starts. The protective film seals out moisture.
3. A lubricant - lubricates contacts.
4. A penetrant - frees rusted or corroded parts.
5. A protector against corrosion in all electrical equipment..
6. A cleaner - apply to a corroded area - the solvent system in 2.26 will act as a degreaser.

It is because both 3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26 are aerosol penetrants that I do not wish to start with them but rather to first test with LGB Oil which, instead of being a penetrating aerosol (going everywhere), comes with a needle point applicator that will enable me to place a tiny drop on the chuff wires which will transfer to the brass strips and should prove to my satisfaction if I wish to pursue this method of chuff control or to instead switch to mini-magnets to be attached between the brass strips.

If I start with an aerosol penetrant it will instantly coat the very surface where I would want to permanently attach the magnets and the film left by the penetrating oil will need to be completely removed for any hope of an adhesive to stick where the penetrating oil was sprayed.

The best method of removing the penetrating oil oil would probably be an aerosol contact cleaner such as 3M™ Novec™ Contact Cleaner Plus

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Novec/Home/Product_Information/Product_Navigator/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE5D02J33P04L38E5_univid=1180607222991

This means that I could end up spraying (into the confined space of the K-4 gearbox) first an aerosol penetrating oil and then an aerosol oil solvent both of which could attack the lubricants Accucraft had used for the K-4 driver etc.

Its not that we disagree on what might be the best solution to one situation but rather that I have not yet determined if I want to go the lubricant or the magnetic route for increasing the reliability of the K-4 chuff sensing.
I should clarify that 3M chemical products were a secondary line for me. They were manufactured by a different 3M division and sold by their own sales force but parts of their product line were made for and marketed by my division (Electrical Products). My division's primary responsibility was for products designed for electrical wire and cable management (insulating, connecting, terminating and identification) up through 35,000 volts. By no means was I a specialist in lubricating products.


Regards,

Jerry

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I get your concern about a penetrant... I did not pay close attention to that aspect on the CRC, because I have used it with not problems. Gotcha, depending on the permeability of the "drum" it could be a problem, agreed.

I think the drum is nylon, but who knows!

You know, the 3m products are much harder to find, but the 5-way stuff sounds interesting... I'd like to buy a can and see how I like it. Are they typically distributed somewhere other than home improvement / hardware stores?

Greg

 

[pimanjc]

Greg,
A problem that Jerry and I both have is the scarcity of G-scale and all-scale trains shops within a reasonable distance for pruchasing [especially out of the ordinary] items. There are only two train shops within a 150 mi radius of my home. I suspect Jerry has similiar conditions, with either Little Rock, or Fort Smith being the two larger towns in his area. Sometimes Jerry's reluctance to get a specific item may be easy availability as well as comfort with an existing product that he has on=hand. As Jerry said, the knowledge of the products is extremely valuable for future use.

JimC.

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 12:50 PM
You know, the 3m products are much harder to find, but the 5-way stuff sounds interesting... I'd like to buy a can and see how I like it. Are they typically distributed somewhere other than home improvement / hardware stores?

Greg

Hi Greg,

I retired from 3M Electrical Products Division on 1/1/01 and it has been over 10 years since I have had any contact with my old division which I think has been reorganized into a new division(s?) with a reorganized approach to the electrical market. Where I once sold everything to everyone, now they have divided the market into sectors with different salesmen (or agents) now handling various portions of the product line. The days of a 3M electrical products factory rep calling on rural markets like Arkansas are over. My information about who sells what for 3M is now 10 years out of date.

On a whim I did try Grainger (not one of my former distributors) and they appear to carry 3M 5 Way Spray. I don't know where you live but they may have a branch near you.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=5+way&op=search&Ntt=5+way&N=0&sst=subset

You may not find much difference in performance between 3M 5 Way and CRC 2-26. One word of caution - the Grainger data seems to confirm the 3M 5 Way still uses a flammable propellant (Isobutane and Propane Base) while CRC 2-26 does not. The 5 Way I have been using is now over 10 years old and it still performs very well for me. I always considered 5 Way to be superior to 2-26 and WD-40 but then I was (and am) prejudiced. All three tend to gum up with age (such as when used as firearm lubricants).

Regards,

Jerry

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By pimanjc on 20 Sep 2010 03:03 PM
Greg,
A problem that Jerry and I both have is the scarcity of G-scale and all-scale trains shops within a reasonable distance for pruchasing [especially out of the ordinary] items. There are only two train shops within a 150 mi radius of my home. I suspect Jerry has similiar conditions, with either Little Rock, or Fort Smith being the two larger towns in his area. Sometimes Jerry's reluctance to get a specific item may be easy availability as well as comfort with an existing product that he has on=hand. As Jerry said, the knowledge of the products is extremely valuable for future use.

JimC.


Hi Jim,

You defined the situation perfectly. There is not a single large scale distributor in the entire state of Arkansas. Just as important, the nearest source of most items beyond Radio Shack (now almost worthless for electrical/electronic parts) means a trip to Little Rock at a cost of about $25 for gas etc. The electronic distributors have for the most part gone out of business, specialized or done away with their parts counters so one needs to pre-order by phone if you want to pick up anything. Internet sales are not much better because you have to know in advance what you want and then pay a shipping minimum.

90% of the time if I cannot do something with what I have on hand I forget about it or wait until I just happen to be where what I want happens to be.

Jerry

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I think we have a Grainger close by to one of our branch stores. I'll have one of my guys go buy it and send it to me... Almost anything is superior to WD40 (a San Diego company!), which definitely leaves a tacky film that goes bad over time.

WD40 is sort of like an addiction, you spray it on, and seems fine for a while, then gums up, so you spray more on to dissolve and wash away the old stuff.... leaving new stuff which will go gummy later. The CRC product is definitely superior here, and safer on plastic too.

The CRC 2-26 does not attack plastic, I wonder if the 3M product says "plastic safe"... no matter, I buy lots of different stuff and try it out. That's the way I find my "gold mines", like the Deoxit which is unparalleled for oxide reduction and can be sprayed on sensitive contacts... also lanocote, which is a corrosion inhibitor that has lanoline as a base, very safe and does not attack anything... I go shopping in the marine supply stores here, since they have such lubrication and corrosion problems, I often find very cool stuff.

And San Diego only has one hobby store to speak of when you get to G scale... and the only rolling stock left in it is what I did not want to buy... so I am likewise about 100 miles away from any store of value. It's a real pain.

Regards, Greg

 

[Jerrys RR]

Hi Greg,

I can no longer speak for 3M but I've used 5 Way Spray on a variety of plastics for many years with no damage visible to me.

Here is the MSDS for it:

http://complyplus.grainger.com/grainger/msds.asp?sheetid=3029845

Also if you have someone going to Grainger you may want to try 3M Silicone Lubricant (it is what I will probably use on the K-4 power plug and jack)

Silicone Lubricant, Size 24 fl.oz., Size/Net Weight 13.25 oz., Temp Range 28 to 350 F, Flash Point -50F F, VOC Content 95%, Specific Gravity 0.64, Butane Propellant, Contains No Methylene Chloride, CFCs or 1, 1, 1-Trichlorethane., Aerosol Chemical. Won't Stain or Become Gummy., Use to Lubricate Moving Parts. Eliminates Squeaks Caused by Friction. Prevents Sticking and Freezing. Protects Against Rust and Corrosion. Seals Out Moisture. Preserves Plastic, Rubber, and Leather.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/3M-Silicone-Lubricant-2GKG9?Pid=search

The MSDS for it is here:

http://complyplus.grainger.com/grainger/msds.asp?sheetid=2960161

3M is a company that people seldom think about yet something like 40% of the people use at least one 3M product every day. 3M invented many of our every day products from Sand Paper to Scotch Tape to Vinyl Electrical Tape to Post it Notes to Scotch-Brite (everything from reflective street signs to license plates etc.) to Scotch-Gard to Face Masks from surgeons to body shops to adhesives that do everything from holding the heat shields onto the Space Shuttles to attaching the wings to many of the planes we fly (really). When I retired 3M had run experiments on every Space Shuttle flown.

Regards,

Jerry

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 20 Sep 2010 03:57 PM
I wonder if the 3M product says "plastic safe

Regards, Greg


Hi Greg,

I went and got a (10+ year old) can of 3M 5-Way Penetrant and on the side it says "Works on metal, plastics, rubber, painted surfaces."

You also mentioned "I go shopping in the marine supply stores here, since they have such lubrication and corrosion problems, I often find very cool stuff."

You might find some more cool 3M stuff in the 3M Marine Products Catalog (you will need the two dashes at the end of the link):


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...vTSeSSSSSS--

Then there are the 3M Automotive Products:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...t-Catalog/

I am only posting links to these in that you may find other 3M products that you may find interesting to try out. You will also find product overlaps between 3M divisions as many 3M divisions market products made by other 3M divisions (and many retailers are set up by multiple 3M divisions to sell their products).

It is not that I am pushing 3M products (I am retired and I have not had any contact with 3M in many years) but there are MANY products invented by and only available from 3M that most people are totally unaware of.


Regards,

Jerry

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Thanks Jerry, I'm always on the lookout for lubricants, protectants, anti-corrosion, and other things.

I would think their marine grade adhesives might be good for buildings, they are obviously moisture resistant, and have more UV protection..

Also, I see on the lubricants, a 4-way lubricant, but no 5 way?

Greg

 

[Jerrys RR]

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 21 Sep 2010 11:43 AM
I see on the lubricants, a 4-way lubricant, but no 5 way?

Greg



Hi Greg,

Your guess is as good as mine. I see by the MSDS that it is a product of the Automotive Aftermarket Division (as opposed to 3M Electrical or various 3M OEM divisions). That suggests to me that this division may have had some desired variation in the chemical composition as opposed to the Electrical Products Division (perhaps related to 12 volt DC electrical systems rather than higher AC voltage systems. This is purely a guess on my part.

http://www.rshughes.com/images/products/docs/nKhNI2R8MQizP1wJNjRmjg.pdf

I've lost touch but it looks like as of 2009 3M still spends well over $1,000,000,000 per year on R&D. Few companies/corporations can match or come close to this.

R&D and Related Expenditures
For 2009 ………………………….....… $1.293 billion
Total for last five years ……………...... $6.861 billion

Technology
 45 technology platforms, including:
 Adhesives
 Abrasives
 Light Management
 Microreplication
 Nonwoven Materials
 Nanotechnology
 Surface Modification

 6,700 researchers worldwide; 3,400 in the United States.

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?6666660Zjcf6lVs6EVs66S592COrrrrQ- (remember to include the dash)

I started with 3M Business Products Sales Inc. selling Microfilm/Microfiche equipment in 1972. At the time 3M BPSI was the largest division of 3M. Not long after I left that division (9 years later) for 3M Electrical Products, 3M BPSI and all of its product lines (and almost all its personnel) were gone. 3M Company has a unique ability to reinvent itself according to market and technology changes.

Unless things have changed, each division is more or less autonomous and operates as an independent company under the corporate umbrella. Various divisions may carry identical products or they may carry totally different products or anything in-between. This is an oversimplification but it may explain why a sales rep with one division may or may not know what other divisions are selling. A place like Lowes or Home Depot may be selling 3M products from over a dozen different 3M divisions while other companies buy 3M OEM products that go into the manufacture of their products and are never seen by the consumer. There is an old joke about a receptionist asking three 3M sales reps why they were not talking to each other - they represented 3 different 3M divisions and had never met each other.

Regards,

Jerry