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Super Modulator
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Sorry, I thought I replied... should be no problem.

Unfortunately Stan is blowing smoke again with partial knowledge.... stoppit Stan, you are not a QSI expert either...

There were 3 different "versions" for Bachmann locos made, and the generic one for Aristo, if you want actual facts Stan. (where are you getting this "information"?)


On J2, since there is nothing connected to the QSI on J2, then none of the stuff stan mentioned on J2 makes any difference. (Stan you must be confusing the Titan, which does have some things connected to j2, I think your knowledge starts after the decoder of interest was developed)

Normally the smoke pins were jumpered (J1 pins 5 & 8) but the Dash 9 manual you have does not indicate what is on pin 5 (this jumpering has been there forever on Aristo).
Also the Bachmann document does not tell you what voltage turns on the smoke unit, and if it is positive true logic.

So, we should check what the Bachmann "jumper plug" that was supplied does for these pins... that is safest. If it jumpers the 2 pins, then your QSI plugs right in for sure. (There were units sold with these pins cut off, a later Aristo version)

So, see what the stock jumper plug does. Worst case you can cut pins 5 & 8 from the QSI decoder, since the internal switch should override anything else. That's your only possible concern with a QSI Revolution/Magnum decoder as you have pictured.

Greg.
 

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Greg

Why do you continue to be so hostile. This is a time of great joy that Bachmann had started reworking some of the previous Aristocraft product.

I try my best to provide accurate information but I do not profess to be an expert. And like others I can make mistakes, when I do I admit them.

I am clearly not an expert on the various version of QSI decoders.

Perhaos it is best we talk off line and clear up some misconceptions each of us might have. I would welcome that conversation.

Note: Per the standard, the smoke pin used on ALL Bachmann locomotives that have the socket is a normal function pin that is no different from any other function pins.

Bob

Following is a link to an early version of the QSI decoder installed in a Bachmann K27 written in 2007. If you have this QSI version,It will work in the Bachmann Dash-9, However, please note the caveat in the writeup. This QSI version designed for the Aristo locomotives did not have any connectios to the function pins on J2.
https://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/k-27/installdocuments/QSI_Solutions.pdf

QSI was a Key contributor to the development of the socket Bachmann is using in its locomoitives. It was they who discovered the various somewhat random use of J2 in several Aristocraft locomotives, In later years they had two versions of decoders one for Aristo locomotives with no function conections to J2 and one for Bachmann locomotives with all the functions on J2 active,

I am a 1:20 modeler and we had several QSI decoders in various Bachmann locomotives for a number of years. Alas our operators did not like some of their features and we eventually sold them all off.

Just trying to be helpful

Stan
 

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The ESU decoder in one of many excellent choices for the Dash-9. One titbit on the ESU installation. When you load sounds into the ESU decoder the transmission protocal is very sensitive to loads. ESU recomends you remove the blue wire connection before uploading sounds or doing a firmware update. After the update is complete you can reconnect the blue wire.

Hope that Helps..

Stan
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Here's a close up of the Bachmann adapter board. Left Bank Is J1- J-1212 with J1 at bottom, right bank is J2-1-J2-12 with J2-1 at bottom.
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Here close up of QSI adapter board for the card I have, socket closest to screw terminals is J1-1 to J1-12 with J1-1 at right most. The other side is not used per board and just a mounting socket it appears.
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Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
Just a quick glance on the J1 socket at least, (this is a guess am not an expert), the Motor+& Motor -, HL & RL are reversed on the Bachmann socket vs QSI socket. I think the Ground and power are the same (Ground & B+ on Bachmann vs Ground & Power on Qsi) , and the QSI doesn't have a chuff or smoke pin so only 8 screw terminals vs 10 functions on the Bachmann.

So by looking at the board without making any wiring changes the engine and HL/RL will run backwards of normal direction.

But the new switch on the switch panel allows for reversing the polarity so that make correct the direction and lighting issue.
Thoughts?
 

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I tried to make a small adjustment to my esu while it was connected to the Bachman pc board. The esu didn鈥檛 like it. Just a heads up. If there鈥檚 any programming that needs to be done will have to pull the esu back out of the dash 9.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Can you tell if it has the new sintered iron wheels (they will not be plated like original aristo) there may be what looks like black paint on the treads, clean off with wire brush in dremel with wheels rotating.

Also can you tell if they have the D-cut wheels? (meaning taking the screw off reveals a "D" shaped axle end, not tapered?

The last production run had this, and for the first time you can adjust the gauge/back to back.

Greg
Well it appears these motor blocks are like my other Dash-9s, Plated wheels, no D cut axel, non adjustable axel.

Here are the pics, with measurements, be careful with the motor block attachment screws they are flat and strip very easily. The motor block does have a peg on top so you can't put it in backwards.

Circuit component Computer hardware Gas Electronic engineering Technology
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Well tried out both the QSI decoder and the Digitrax DG583ar directly plugged into the Bachmann socket.

Good news neither the Loco or cards went up in smoke 馃榿. They both controlled locomotive direction and headlight/taillight on off and direction operation in the correct direction, regardless of the NMRA/Large-scale switch position.

Now the weird stuff, the cab lights and maker lights and smoke unit do not work with these cards installed no matter the switch position and any input of function keys I tried. I even tried flipping the safetylight switch on pcb on/off with no effect.

I didn't wire up the sound yet so don't know if that works yet, will get to it tonight.

If I remove the cards and put plug back in everything works correctly on DC.

I don't have my TCU-4400 yet so I can't wire up the adapter board yet and see if everything works with it.

I'll mess around with it some more later tonight and let you know if anything changes.

Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Ok did some more testing first using the pnp socket and QSI board and was still unable to control the additional lights or smoke unit, even when using the assigned function keys in QSI manual F11, F12 with light switch on.

The only way I got them all to work including the smoke unit was to jumper the individual wires for smoke and other lights from the pnp adapter boards J2 socket outputs and J1 smoke output to the ground terminal on the QSI adapter board. Then the switches turned them on and off (the ditch lights, cab light, maker boards, and safety light are either all on or all off, the HL and RL still were controllable by the HL button on the hand-held as long as light switch was turned on)

As for sound I unplugged the speaker from the main PCB an directly into the QSI board and it worked correctly, side note the Factory speaker sounded great and had good volume and bass.

I also noted when using the pnp adapter board and wiring all the J1 outputs into the corresponding inputs of the QSI adapter board the engine and HL/RL operation was reversed 馃ぃ (when the QSI board is plugged directly into pnp socket they worked correctly)

So unless someone makes a dedicated plug and play board for this engine the best solution, allowing maximum control of all the lighting functions and smoke will be to use the pnp adapter and a full featured DCC + sound board with screw terminals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I'm going to try some programming changes in the main QSI file using Quantum upgrade and assign the other lights and smoke unit control to the function keys and see if that makes any difference.
 

Super Modulator
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The Bachmann "shorting" plug for DC (as shipped) is more complex than the "old style" one that just jumpered J1 in the socket.

Most of the time, the issue is that you have to SEPARATELY provide power to the main board, to power the logic that switches the other lights.

But of course, the QSI you are using pre-dated the Bachman version of the socket, so J2 (where your other lighting is controlled) was not addressed.

(you note that the electronics connected to J1, front headlight, rear headlight do indeed work). This was the situation with the later model K27, C19, etc.

I would take a look at the QSI Titan pinout and see how many of the Titan function outputs match the Bachmann socket.

OK, on the Smoke, the Magnum never controlled the smoke, but the Aristo socket was designed to connect pins 5 and 8. Clearly the Bachmann socket has changed that, and has a logic input on 8 only.

The QSI Titan will control pin 8 on J1, but it will pull to ground, the Bachmann documentation does not give the logic levels for pin 8, but should work if properly designed.

Likewise the Titan has more than enough light outputs, and they are available on J2 pins 8,10,11,12 and on the 3rd connector, but the pins are not exactly the same.

It would be easier to use a Titan, then use the Bachmann adapter board and just use the default Titan terminals, since the Titan has screw terminals that accept the Bachmann wires.

I applaud you sticking to it.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
The Bachmann "shorting" plug for DC (as shipped) is more complex than the "old style" one that just jumpered J1 in the socket.

Most of the time, the issue is that you have to SEPARATELY provide power to the main board, to power the logic that switches the other lights.

But of course, the QSI you are using pre-dated the Bachman version of the socket, so J2 (where your other lighting is controlled) was not addressed.

(you note that the electronics connected to J1, front headlight, rear headlight do indeed work). This was the situation with the later model K27, C19, etc.

I would take a look at the QSI Titan pinout and see how many of the Titan function outputs match the Bachmann socket.

OK, on the Smoke, the Magnum never controlled the smoke, but the Aristo socket was designed to connect pins 5 and 8. Clearly the Bachmann socket has changed that, and has a logic input on 8 only.

The QSI Titan will control pin 8 on J1, but it will pull to ground, the Bachmann documentation does not give the logic levels for pin 8, but should work if properly designed.

Likewise the Titan has more than enough light outputs, and they are available on J2 pins 8,10,11,12 and on the 3rd connector, but the pins are not exactly the same.

It would be easier to use a Titan, then use the Bachmann adapter board and just use the default Titan terminals, since the Titan has screw terminals that accept the Bachmann wires.

I applaud you sticking to it.

Greg
Thanks Greg, had no illusion that the QSI board would be able to control any of those lighting features because like you said the J2 side isn't used (I don't have another titan board to try), but it's the board I had and wanted to see if it would work at all 馃ぃ.

I was disappointed that those other lights and smoke didn't have an option to switch control from pnp socket to straight switch control so they would work with older decoders ( like the switch they added to turn off the safety lights).

But on the bright side the old QSI board did work correctly for the most part in the new socket, and if I used the the pnp adapter board with the Magnum adapter board I was able to get everything working 馃榿.

Im pretty sure that if it was available the Zimo MX697v bachmann board would control everything correctly using the plug and play socket, but from what I was told they won't be for a long time, so I think the TSU-4400 will be the best option for now.

Oh btw is that the information you wanted on the motor blocks? I'll be pulling the Dash 9 apart today to change weights and add Kadees so if there is anything else you want to know lmk.
 

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Yeah, just would like the back to back measurement on the wheels before pulling apart, and to remove one wheel if you can, although pretty darn sure the unit uses the older style tapered axles without the D cut. A magnet to check if the wheels are steel (like previously) would be another good data point.

I would caution you on the TSU-4400, they are marginal in terms of power output, so they are really about 4 amps continuous (most manufacturers rate output current as continuous and also spec stall current, but SoundTraxx has used the stall current, so a 4 amp decoder will quit at 4 amps, i.e. no headroom. Also check you don't get in the area where the DCC track voltage is marginal, early large scale Tsunami's and the Bachmann OEM Tsunami's would freak out at about 20-21 volts (below the NMRA spec of 27) and this was an issue.

This has been somewhat corrected in later firmware, but not confirmed in the large scale units. It was quite an issue in the first OEM SoundTraxx-equipped Bachmann Shays... so just be aware this might be an issue.

My NCE system was modified to put very close to 24v on the rails, and all the Tsunami's I had flipped out... Now my Zimo system does put 24v on the rails too, so I gave up on SoundTraxx in large scale.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
H
Yeah, just would like the back to back measurement on the wheels before pulling apart, and to remove one wheel if you can, although pretty darn sure the unit uses the older style tapered axles without the D cut. A magnet to check if the wheels are steel (like previously) would be another good data point.

I would caution you on the TSU-4400, they are marginal in terms of power output, so they are really about 4 amps continuous (most manufacturers rate output current as continuous and also spec stall current, but SoundTraxx has used the stall current, so a 4 amp decoder will quit at 4 amps, i.e. no headroom. Also check you don't get in the area where the DCC track voltage is marginal, early large scale Tsunami's and the Bachmann OEM Tsunami's would freak out at about 20-21 volts (below the NMRA spec of 27) and this was an issue.

This has been somewhat corrected in later firmware, but not confirmed in the large scale units. It was quite an issue in the first OEM SoundTraxx-equipped Bachmann Shays... so just be aware this might be an issue.

My NCE system was modified to put very close to 24v on the rails, and all the Tsunami's I had flipped out... Now my Zimo system does put 24v on the rails too, so I gave up on SoundTraxx in large scale.

Greg
If you look at post #31 it has pics of the motor block and wheel removed with measurements.

I also weighed the new Dash vs the old one.

I'm at 21/22 volts to the rails across the 3 zones, I do have 1 booster they modified to your specs that puts 24v to the rails, but when I went back and asked them to modify the the 2 new ones for the other zones I was told that they were no longer allowed to do it and the best I could get was the 21/22 so I had to turn down the modded one to match.

I've installed 4 of the latest firmware version TSU-4400s, with the optional Current keepers, and so far they have really worked out nice.
I've run the UP ABA set around the entire 2400 ft and had zero issues. I'll keep an eye on them though when it gets warmer out and get back to you.

Ron
 
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