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I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED.
 

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Discussion Starter #102
Posted By pete on 03 Feb 2011 03:32 PM
I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED.

Hello Pete,

Just as a pilot cannot hijack his own airplane the person who starts a topic cannot be accused of hijacking his own topic. Actually there is very little to hijack from a topic that does nothing more than make an announcement that a new product has begun to arrive.

When I started this topic the title was self explanatory:

New Aristo PCC Trolleys are in stock

My first post stated

"It is too early for a review but they should arrive within a week or two. Meanwhile, after checking the Aristo website, I found the other PCC Trolleys are also in stock at Aristo."

Hours after I started this topic someone else received his PCC Trolley and started a topic reviewing his PCC Trolley. Since my trolleys did not arrive until some time later I saw no point in having another topic reviewing the PCC Trolleys in similar detail. Considering that there is the other topic and both Dave Bodnar and George Shreyer have both professionally reviewed the PCC Trolleys I see no need for yet another topic reviewing the PCC Trolley so this topic has drifted whichever way it has with no objection from me - the originator of the topic.

I noticed where you commented on the other PCC Trolley topics so there is no need to post links to them for you.

On the other hand if you have any specific questions about the PCC Trolleys that have not been answered to your satisfaction elsewhere either I or someone else here will be quite happy to try to assist you.

As for my CTA Trolleys they arrived, I ran them, I liked them and I just built a shelf up to put them on. That pretty much concludes my "review" of the PCC Trolleys.

Jerry
 

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Posted By pete on 03 Feb 2011 03:32 PM
I have been off line for a couple of days and just loged on and thought i would get some up dates on the pcc trolley. What the ^&*** happened to the PCC thread HIJACKED.
I agree Pete,
Seems like a wasted thread
Not even close to being on topic.
 

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Discussion Starter #104
Posted By fred j on 03 Feb 2011 06:52 PM
I agree Pete,
Seems like a wasted thread
Not even close to being on topic.



Threads are no better or worse than the contributions everyone makes to them. If you have something to contribute you are most welcome to contribute it and if you have any questions you would like to ask you are welcome to ask them.

The box the PCC Trolleys came in said "Ready to Run" which is exactly what I was looking for. I never had any intention of taking my trolleys apart and adding anything to them as others have done.

There are no rules or obligations for anyone who elects to start a topic so if you wish to rate the topic based on what you found here as
you are welcome to do so but by the same token your lack of any sort of contribution to this topic would also rate a
would it not? You arrived, you gave nothing and you received nothing. Sounds fair to me.


As for being on topic the trolleys were in stock so the topic had served its purpose with the very first post. The topic was an announcement of an event that had occurred. Anything since has been no more or less than whatever anyone felt like discussing.

About the only other thing I can think of to add about the trolleys is that I finally got around to putting up a shelf for them.



The trolleys arrived, they look nice, they run nice, I am happy with them and they now have somewhere to sit. That's the extent of my interest in them.

I don't understand folks who visit a topic, make no contributions to the topic, ask no questions and slam the door on their way out. Maybe its a sort of "Kilroy was here" (or kill joy?).

Cheers,

Jerry
 

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Jerry i asked questions, i got answers i enjoyed the information i got from all the post about the pcc trolleys.I did not slam the door. This web site has a ton of great information and great members. I did not mean to upset you or anyone else by what i said. You and others helped me make the decision to buy a pcc trolley.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
Posted By pete on 04 Feb 2011 08:57 AM
Jerry I did not mean to upset you or anyone else by what i said. You and others helped me make the decision to buy a pcc trolley.

Hello Pete,
While your comments were part of the reason for my response they were not the primary reason for my response (I was not quoting you).

Not long ago someone started a topic about what happened to all those who used to post on MLS and no longer do so. I happen to be one of those long time (life) members who does not post often and I know several other long time MLSers who seldom if ever post here anymore. Speaking for myself and those I have talked to, the most often mentioned reasons for not posting on MLS (or other forums) is a general lack of courtesy and respect for everyone - especially for those one may not agree with. Everyone has something of value to offer and often we learn the most from those we have the least in common with.

The one thing we have in common is that we buy whatever it is that we buy with our own money with the singular purpose of having fun with our large scale trains. We all started out as newbies and we got a lot of help from others as we developed our knowledge and skills so we feel a responsibility to try to help those now entering the hobby just as we were given help when we needed it.

No matter how much an individual may spend or how large his layout may happen to be there will be many others who spend a lot more and have larger layouts and many others who spend a lot less and have smaller layouts - all of whom have every bit as much fun with the hobby. The one thing that stands out most among the old timers is that we/they mainly enjoy the company of other large scalers without any thought given to how much money the other guy is spending or how big or little his layout may happen to be.

All this changes when one posts something favorable about a particular brand, product or power source on MLS and some other forums. I and others who like LGB quit posting about LGB years ago because we got fed up with those who hate LGB and attacked anything favorable said about LGB. Lately most of those I know who like Aristo-Craft no longer post about Aristo-Craft because we got fed up with being attacked whenever we said something positive about Aristo-Craft including a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft. The Alpha Dogs win and we go away because we have reached a point with our knowledge, skills and layouts that we don't need to tolerate the BS.

A lot is posted about what is wrong with everything. It is almost as if there is something questionable about the poster if he buys something and likes it and does not post a lot of stuff about what was wrong with a product.

Of course there is almost always something "wrong" with every product - especially a new product where folks have not figured out if they want it or if it fits with their concept for their layout.

Perhaps the bigger question should not be "what is wrong with it" as much as "what is right with it." After all if you look at the following one thing will stand out:

PCC Trolleys, Ten Wheelers, FA-1, PA-1, E8, NW-2, GP-38, GP-7, Pacific, Hudson, Big Boy, Forney, Challenger, Mogul, GP-40, Mikado, 2-4-0, 4-4-0, F7, F3, 0-4-0, Stainz, RDC the list goes on and on.

The one thing that stands out is that in every case there is most likely only a single manufacturer who offers it and if there happen to be two manufacturers the item is usually of a different scale or with significant differences in price, quality and features.

In other words it is less a question of how good is the Aristo-Craft PCC Trolley or the Bachmann Ten Wheeler or the USA PA-1 etc. as much as how bad do you really want one?

Aristo-Craft and St. Aubins got together and produced the CTA PCC Trolley. It is very different from the actual CTA PCC Trolleys but for someone from Chicago (like me) it happens to be the ONLY CTA trolley anyone has ever produced so I bought it. Others may like the Ten Wheelers or 4-4-0's and Bachmann is the only manufacturer of them. I happen to be somewhat modeling railroads that ran in Chicago and Arkansas. Only USAT makes a MoPac PA-1 and GP-40 and C&NW NW-2 so I have those just as Aristo-Craft was the only manufacturer to offer Cotton Belt GP-?, Rock Island GP-? and C&NW RDC so I have them. I run the LGB locos that came with MTS decoders with MTS and the Aristo locos that came with a PNP interface with Revolutions but many could have given me dozens of reasons not to buy anything or to buy what they like instead of what I like.

Every time someone bashes a topic or attacks someone for posting something positive about a product, brand or power source that just might be the final straw and the poster might think "this is not worth the effort" and join the ranks of those who no longer post on MLS. Will they be missed? Maybe and maybe not but they will have more time to do other things that are more fun than having someone tell them they are wasting their (free) time.

Regards,

Jerry
 

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Hello Pete,

While your comments were part of the reason for my response they were not the primary reason for my response (I was not quoting you).

Not long ago someone started a topic about what happened to all those who used to post on MLS and no longer do so. I happen to be one of those long time (life) members who does not post often and I know several other long time MLSers who seldom if ever post here anymore. Speaking for myself and those I have talked to, the most often mentioned reasons for not posting on MLS (or other forums) is a general lack of courtesy and respect for everyone - especially for those one may not agree with. Everyone has something of value to offer and often we learn the most from those we have the least in common with.

The one thing we have in common is that we buy whatever it is that we buy with our own money with the singular purpose of having fun with our large scale trains. We all started out as newbies and we got a lot of help from others as we developed our knowledge and skills so we feel a responsibility to try to help those now entering the hobby just as we were given help when we needed it.

No matter how much an individual may spend or how large his layout may happen to be there will be many others who spend a lot more and have larger layouts and many others who spend a lot less and have smaller layouts - all of whom have every bit as much fun with the hobby. The one thing that stands out most among the old timers is that we/they mainly enjoy the company of other large scalers without any thought given to how much money the other guy is spending or how big or little his layout may happen to be.

All this changes when one posts something favorable about a particular brand, product or power source on MLS and some other forums. I and others who like LGB quit posting about LGB years ago because we got fed up with those who hate LGB and attacked anything favorable said about LGB. Lately most of those I know who like Aristo-Craft no longer post about Aristo-Craft because we got fed up with being attacked whenever we said something positive about Aristo-Craft including a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft. The Alpha Dogs win and we go away because we have reached a point with our knowledge, skills and layouts that we don't need to tolerate the BS.

A lot is posted about what is wrong with everything. It is almost as if there is something questionable about the poster if he buys something and likes it and does not post a lot of stuff about what was wrong with a product.

Of course there is almost always something "wrong" with every product - especially a new product where folks have not figured out if they want it or if it fits with their concept for their layout.

Perhaps the bigger question should not be "what is wrong with it" as much as "what is right with it." After all if you look at the following one thing will stand out:

PCC Trolleys, Ten Wheelers, FA-1, PA-1, E8, NW-2, GP-38, GP-7, Pacific, Hudson, Big Boy, Forney, Challenger, Mogul, GP-40, Mikado, 2-4-0, 4-4-0, F7, F3, 0-4-0, Stainz, RDC the list goes on and on.

The one thing that stands out is that in every case there is most likely only a single manufacturer who offers it and if there happen to be two manufacturers the item is usually of a different scale or with significant differences in price, quality and features.

In other words it is less a question of how good is the Aristo-Craft PCC Trolley or the Bachmann Ten Wheeler or the USA PA-1 etc. as much as how bad do you really want one?

Aristo-Craft and St. Aubins got together and produced the CTA PCC Trolley. It is very different from the actual CTA PCC Trolleys but for someone from Chicago (like me) it happens to be the ONLY CTA trolley anyone has ever produced so I bought it. Others may like the Ten Wheelers or 4-4-0's and Bachmann is the only manufacturer of them. I happen to be somewhat modeling railroads that ran in Chicago and Arkansas. Only USAT makes a MoPac PA-1 and GP-40 and C&NW NW-2 so I have those just as Aristo-Craft was the only manufacturer to offer Cotton Belt GP-?, Rock Island GP-? and C&NW RDC so I have them. I run the LGB locos that came with MTS decoders with MTS and the Aristo locos that came with a PNP interface with Revolutions but many could have given me dozens of reasons not to buy anything or to buy what they like instead of what I like.

Every time someone bashes a topic or attacks someone for posting something positive about a product, brand or power source that just might be the final straw and the poster might think "this is not worth the effort" and join the ranks of those who no longer post on MLS. Will they be missed? Maybe and maybe not but they will have more time to do other things that are more fun than having someone tell them they are wasting their (free) time.

Regards,

Jerry




Add Reply

Jerry,

You have said something many of us "old timers" have felt here for the past two years. Courtesy and civility don't seem to exist on the forum anymore. I know many of the folks who don't post here anymore and it's because of the reasons you note. I don't know what has happened here, but it isn't good. Just my two cents.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 05 Feb 2011 08:34 AM
Jerry,

You have said something many of us "old timers" have felt here for the past two years. Courtesy and civility don't seem to exist on the forum anymore. I know many of the folks who don't post here anymore and it's because of the reasons you note. I don't know what has happened here, but it isn't good. Just my two cents.

Hi Gary,

If I had to sum it up I would say that competitiveness (aggression) has replaced courtesy (cooperation).

If that is the message newbies are getting it is a cancer that can destroy the hobby for all of us. Model trains are accepted to be a declining hobby. In my opinion it has been the "coffee shop friendliness" of the forums that brought us large scalers together and helped this hobby to grow. The fact that I can be in rural Arkansas and share the fun of this hobby with you in California along with others in Florida, Alaska, Canada, England, Australia, and as far away as Hong Kong goes a long way to make up for the lack of local hobby shops and clubs where we might otherwise have met and visited with each other.

We might discuss the relative differences between your steam power and my track power but we would do so in fun and with courtesy and respect for each other.

When MLS discussions turn into attacks from the proponents of one brand vs another brand, model vs model, steam vs battery vs track power vs DCC vs MTS vs DCS vs Revolution all that happens is that older MLSers get fed up with the negative comments and attitudes and go away looking for a friendlier place to hang out.

It is not so much a problem for us "old timers" because we have the knowledge we need and we still have our old friends around the world and we can visit each other at train shows, via private emails or phone calls etc.

It is more of a problem for the current generation of newbies because they are left with a skeleton of the support and information that was available to us as we grew into the hobby. They end up with information that may be limited in depth or heavily biased because many of those with the greatest amount of experience and knowledge no longer are active on MLS.

Most of those I have the greatest respect for are long gone or post very infrequently.

Regards,

Jerry
 

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Very nicely summed up. Civility seems to be a thing of the past, and not just at MLS. I visit infrequently, post infrequently and am lettimg my paid membership lapse. (Sorry, Shad.) In the last two or three years there's just too much carping, sniping and flaming from folks who are legends in their own minds.

I'll get my traction fix from other sources.
 

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Jerry, my thoughts exactly. I'm doing what I always do: exactly what I want. I don't let the bastards keep me down.

Edit: You know, I had typed out like 3 responses to this thread. Each one sounded more like a pity party. The reality is that if I want MLS to be different, I need to post and respond differently. Replying to all the snide comments and out right slander doesn't get me anywhere with my hobby. Sure, you have to defend your position sometimes, but some people just cannot see someone else's point of view.
 

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Guys: your name calling (in the posts above):

"bastards"
"idiots"
"alpha dog"
"legends in their own minds"


Puts you RIGHT in the company with the people you profess are the problem.

You are making youselves just as bad when you resort to personal attacks.

Personal attacks are against forum policy.

Personally, I think that the self-regulation is gone from the site, with EVERYONE, not just the "elite" and the "good old boys".

I will tell you this much: keep calling people names, keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back. That's NOT the way you solve problems.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #113
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 07 Feb 2011 01:43 PM
Guys: your name calling (in the posts above):

"bastards"
"idiots"
"alpha dog"
"legends in their own minds"


I will tell you this much: keep calling people names, keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back.

Greg




Hello Greg,

I think you are missing the entire point. No one is referring to anyone specific with perhaps the exception of me.

Who is being called a "*******?" I don't have a clue and I doubt that Mark is referring to anyone in particular. I happen to know Mark and he is not the sort of guy who runs around calling anyone names.

Who is being called an "Alpha Dog?" I said it and I was not referring to anyone specific when I said it. Instead I was referring to a "pack mentality" that seems to be creeping into MLS. This goes along with my suggestion of an aggressive attitude such as exhibited by packs of dogs. I would freely apply the "pack mentality" to any and every group that takes a position that theirs is the only solution and that attacks anyone who has a different preference. I have seen that exhibited by several groups including groups that favor products that I buy and like. It is my opinion that whatever group it happens to include is harming the hobby by denying those with different opinions from expressing their right to have a different opinion.

"Legends in their own minds" is quite a common expression and once again nothing was said that to me suggests that it was addressed to any particular person or persons.

That leaves my comment about "a few idiots stupidly making accusations of our being employees or otherwise paid by Aristo-Craft." You know precisely what and who I am referring to. I think I was being generous to suggest that they were idiots (uninformed individuals who do not know anything about me and who were ignorantly saying false things about me) because the alternative would be that they did know that what they were saying was nothing but lies which makes them intentionally malicious rather than ignorant. Which do you think is the correct description of them?

You said " keep up the personal attacks, and those people will just attack back." You are right. It was once again recently suggested that I am somehow paid by Aristo-Craft and just as you predicted - I stuck back. You seem to choose not to notice where these attacks have originated.

When I started his thread this question was asked by one person"

07 Jan 2011 02:19 PM
"Where can we see a picture of what they look like."

So I tried to help him by copying and posting photos that I got from the Aristo-Craft Forum and below is what was later posted elsewhere by our
friend:

11 Jan 2011 09:17 PM
"I looked at the 2 other threads on the PCC car and they really weren't helpful at all.
The one with the pictures, I assume the guy works for Aristocraft since he put all
the pictures and part #s in the thread and doesnt even own one?"

The same
guy later complains that this thread was a waste of his time.

I think it would take an idiot not to see that I posted the pictures in a direct response to another MLSer's request for such pictures and to then say this thread was not helpful at all. I have no reason to think that he is malicious. If he wants to voice his displeasure at my topic and then to suggest that I work for Aristo-Craft (as if there would be something wrong with it if I did), as per your own suggestion, it lead me to respond by suggesting that he (and others who have made similar false claims about me) might be idiots. Who among us has not been called an idiot many times in our lives (often when we did something stupid that deserved our being called an idiot)?

It has nothing to do with the "elite" or the "good old boys" and everything to do with why people are leaving MLS.

Regards,

Jerry
 

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Just as a sample about what Greg and Jerry are talking about. Go over to the last response from Mik to my post about UPS, FEDEX deliveries( OOOOOps...errr.....UPS). I rest my case!!
 

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Greg,

Just to be perfectly clear on my above quoted phrase, I was not talking about you or anyone specific. It is an old phrase that I read on my college professors desk. He had it etched on a mug that was given to him at some point. You've missed my point enitrely, and I am really sorry you are unable or unwilling to try and understand the bigger picture of what I was saying.


ALL: I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE A NAME. "Don't let the bastards get you down" is an old phrase, not penned by me: Origin

Have fun playing trains with your kids tonight guys! I know I will!

Mark
 

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I'm well aware of the commonness of the phrase.

But it definitely depicts "the opposition" as bastards.

It's just not constructive, it's not helpful, and just causes problems.

By the way, that phrase is usually attributed to the book by Margaret Atwood: The Handmaid's Tale, which was published in 1985, and has a latin translation of "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum". This is NOT an old phrase.

It may come from "ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM" which is MOCK latin, originating in world war II, again, not very old compared to many other phrases in common usage. Carborundum is a hard mineral, and the mock latin is taken to mean "grind you down".

See Wikipedia for a reasonable explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum


Read with particular interest:

Illegitimi suggests illegitimate to the English speaker, but it is certainly not the usual Latin word for '*******', nor does it carry the same negative connotation as in English: it was never used as a general insult as the English term '*******' still is.
It also should be kept in mind that 'bastards' is often used in English as a generic derogatory term, not necessarily relating to the marital status of one's parents

Regards, Greg




 

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Greg,

As far as the history of the phrase is concerned, I believe I gave you the history of it as it relates to me. I've added the links I used when researching the history of the phrase after the fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/116900.html


The thread took a turn and I responded because I felt the same way so I responded. Some might have read that as crude humor, which is what I intended. There have been and are currently many many threads where I see general attacks (Kool aid drinker comes to mind readily) on others and even more specific attacks on individuals, yet that goes unnoticed or unrecognized. Or, are you really saying that it is time for all of that bull spit to end? I wholeheartedly agree with that and I believe that to be the sentiment which caused me to post initially.

I really can't help it if you decided that I was talking about you, when I was not. Also, I find the tone of your reply to me condescending. I don't appreciate your implication that I am deliberately causing a problem, when in fact, I am empathising with the other two people on the thread about the state of this website now versus what it was like just a few years ago.

The fact that I had to reply three times on this subject makes me sad. I am sorry if I offended anyone. Trying to have some fun and I guess I need to remember that not everyone will read things the same way. Have fun guys
 

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It's my opinion it's not helpful, it's not condescending... you cannot make the "trap" that anything not in agreement is wrong. That's the old "bashing" argument, anything negative on a product is bashing.

I don't think the attacks, and calling names and kool-aid references are helpful either.

But you are empathizing with people who are engaged in name calling, etc. How can that be helpful or right?

It's one thing to talk about how things have gotten worse.

It's different when you feel justified in calling "the bad guys" idiots, bastards, etc. ANY names at all.

You are right at the same level doing that. The problem here is you (Mark) are justifying (as far as I can tell) the EXACT thing that people are saying is wrong.

A wise moderator on this forum introduced me to the "three rule" test, attributed to Socrates. It's a good thing to live by.

Maybe I'm not being helpful in pointing out these things, but I'm hoping that the following statement might give someone and "a ha" moment:

Making personal attacks on other because others are making personal attacks will get you nowhere, and you are no better than "them" when you engage in the same thing you are upset that they are doing.

Doesn't this make sense?

Don't worry about offending me, it's not the point.

The point is I object to ANYONE making personal attacks. It's supposed to be a forum rule. We all know that most of the moderators are tired of policing us. So why can't the majority just abstain? Set an example?

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #120
There was a surprise package when I went up to the house for dinner. FedEx had left it on the doorstep and my wife found it and brought it in but I could not think what it could be.

When I opened it I remembered...




I had forgotten all about ordering the Bridge Masters track cleaning car.

Unfortunately when I ordered it and asked if I could get it cut for a coupler mount on both ends I was told that was not possible. That would have made it a lot nicer for my purposes as I could have put a hook and loop coupler on one end and a knuckle coupler on the other end.

As we are expecting an Arkansas Blizzard tonight (perhaps as much as 3 - 4 inches of snow) it may be awhile before I get a chance to try it out.

It looks sort of dull compared with the bright blue of the car on their website. I did not know there were different colors. I also noticed the design is somewhat different from the one on their website as this car has two screws on each side holding the cleaning block. Still, as long as it works and does not rust I will be happy with it. Shipping brought the net cost up to $75.00.

It is already obsolete in that I've ordered replacement Aristo-Craft stainless steel track and turnouts to replace all the brass track and turnouts on the caboose layout but it should serve as a back up for the LGB Track Cleaning Locos on the crawl space and garage layouts.

It will be interesting to see how it performs compared with the G Clean track cleaning car. There were no instructions as to whether to push or pull it. The G Clean Car instructions specifically said to push their car rather than to pull it but I suspect that a hook and loop coupler (as provided) might have a tendency to be pushed up and over a connecting hook and loop coupler. For that reason and the fact that the car would not accept a hook with the loop I will probably replace the coupler with an LGB Knuckle Coupler and perhaps put a Kadee on the other end.

Jerry
 
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