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Discussion Starter #41
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM

There are a number of posts with the explanation and images of the FABBA set that I'm running with one receiver. I did rewire all the F units exactly the same. They are daisy chained from the battery car, through three units and then to the lead unit. I used the All Electronics 4 conductor connectors used the red and black for power, yellow and green for speakers. With the hookup, I can run 1, 2, 3 or four units.



Hi Stan,

Can you provide a link to your posts on your installation of the Revolution in the FABBA set?

Thanks,

Jerry
 

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Jerry.......... Here's some copy of my initial thoughts on the FABBA hookup posted on the Aristo Forum.

George... Great minds think in the same direction, eh???? :) :) :) I'm planning the same thing with an FABBA[/b] set. However, at this time, my plan is to power just the lead A and B unit and dummy the trailing B and A unit. All this is in my mind right now which is a very scary place to be.... Initially, I'm going to try to run both powered units from one receiver. I'll probably get yelled at for doing that but, I'm going to try it. As a beta tester for the new system, we're supposed to run them through their paces, right? The engineers design these toys to function the way they designed them. However, when they leave the security of the manufacturing plant, they're open game for whatever might be tried. (Warranty goes out the window in that case) :) It's my plan to put the batteries in the second B unit to power the system. Tests will be made with 14.8 Li-ion packs. At present, I have the capability of paralleling 2 4400 mhz packs up to 8800 mha with comfortable charging times. If the 2 locomotives shut down the receiver, I'll control each locomotive separately and "bind" them into one consist.When I helped Brandy make the initial tests with the NEW TE, we used 2 dash 9's each with it's own receiver and battery. We were able to MU them just fine. They ran as one unit very nicely. I'm not sure of the current draw difference between the dash 9's and the FA motors, so that will be part of the experiment. Sound will be added to the lead unit. I'll be using the Sierra Soundtraxx modules. The TE should be capable of triggering the bell, whistle and 2 other functions. Reed switches will be used for track magnet triggering as well. The Dallee systems should work nicely as well. All the above to try to answer your question... If you are going to power each ABBA or ABBBA, I would suggest onboard batteries in each unit with it's own receiver. With the NEW TE, you can fine tune each unit to run together. It will take some "tweaking", but when you've programmed and "bound" each locomotive together in a single consist and select the CAB # for that consist, all 4 or 5 locomotives will run as one. It would be best to select the same voltage and mha battery pack for each locomotive. With the new technology in batteries today, you should have no problem finding the right combination. Also, testing will need to be made to check run times with each locomotive. If one or more of the battery packs discharge before the others, a great drag will be created as one or more units will become non powered. Soooooooooo...... I would suggest that you test run times so you don't discharge any of the batteries completely. Stop running before any battery would discharge. That's the beauty of one battery source. When it discharges, all systems stop at once. However, that may not be suitable for the ABBA/ABBBA you're planning.Li-ions with a protective overcharge/undercharge board in them, will shut down completely when the shut down voltage is reached. ie: the 14.8 Li-Ions shut down at 9.6. They will read "0" on a meter. They ain't completely dead, the protective circuit shuts them down and they're ready to be charged. The 14.8's will charge to 16.5 or so then the protective circuit stops the charging.I'm not sure what the discharge curve is on NiMH, but they don't like to be fully discharged. Just a disclaimer here, George... I shore ain't no expert on all the tek-in-all stuff, I've just been running trains with all types of batteries for 10 years, made many mistakes, let out the magic smoke in different systems but I have all my trains running on batteries of various types, with numerous RC systems and have a ball doing it. Like my old High School Earth Science teacher posted in his classroom those 55 years ago, "Where would the turtle be if he didn't stick his neck out". That's kinda been my attitude. :) :) :) :)Sorry for the long epistle..... Hope it helps.


After I had written this back in March, I tried, with great success, putting an FABBA consist together and running it with one receiver in a follow battery box car. I can't find the exact posts but they're embedded in threads on the Aristo Forum.

Here's a copy of a post I just made on the MLS MU thread at Marty's.

Posted By TonyWalsham on 01 Oct 2009 03:44 AM
Hi Stan.

Four powered FA's from one revolution is vey impressive.

Did you have the ESC fan cooled? Tony... when I started on the FABBA consist, I was going to try using a receiver in each AB unit. When I had all the shells off and was hard wiring the 4 units together, I wondered if all 4 units would run on one receiver. It did and has been that way ever since. So far, I have not had to use a cooling fan. The units are hard wired together and connected using All Electronic's 4 pin connectors. Red and black supply power with the yellow and green connecting the Sierra sound to speakers in the A units. The battery car contains one REVOLUTION receiver, one 14.8 4400 Li-ion battery and a Sierra sound module with the adaptor board. Runtimes with the 14.8 4400 mAh are consistantly 2 3/4 hours. I'm doing tests with 18.5 volt 5200 mAh and have increased runtimes to over 3 hours.

I should qualify my runtime statements. Most of my train running is constant. I start the train with a fresh, fully charged battery and let it run until the PCB in the battery pack shuts it off. Change to a new battery and start all over again. The run times listed above are under those conditions.

Image of the test runs with just the FABBA chassis pulling 25 freight cars.



Then pulling 11 USA streamliners at Marty's using the 18.5 volt 5200 mAh Li-ion.

 

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Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Oct 2009 09:00 AM
Since I've not hooked mine up to the Revolution yet, do you know if the idle sounds play on the Sierra steam sound without any extra circuitry?
Later,

K Kevin......... Sorry for the delay in the response. I had a day and a half yesterday...


Yes, the steam module has standing sounds immediately on power up and sitting at idle. That's without the adapter.
 

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Jerry,
Here is what I posted on another forum about my experiance with the Revolution.

I run brass track power and have two sound box cars. I program the sound system for the locos that I will be running that day. I was using trackside TEs.

I have been using the Revolution TE System in my diesels (and Blue Comet Pacific) since June. I have been experimenting with the various ways to install them.
I have installed them in locos. (More costly)
I have installed them in the sound box cars and run the motor outputs to the locos which I wired to receive the motor output directly to the motors and headlights. (Cheaper as I only need one Revo per box car)

After running these setups as various MUs and SUs I have gravitated to a style of running.

I run two trains, freight or passenger, with another one on a passing siding. I mostly use the locos with Revos installed. I set one of the sound box cars as MU1 and add a Loco or two to the MU list. I use the speed offset to match speeds. (it does not effect the loco when set to SU but it remembers it for the next MU run).

I do need another sound box car.

My sound box cars sense speed through chuff triggers (yep, you can do this with diesels).
So, most of my control activities are loco speed and sound stuff. I use manual horn, bell, rev up, rev dwn and vol up, vol dwn.
By using the * key I can toggle throught the MU locos and control the headlights on/off, smoke on/off. (one trick, use the #1 key for smoke so when you press the # key for the quick menu, it is easy to see that status of the smoke, on/off. If you use the #6 key, you have to scroll down in the menu)

So, my standard has become a Revo in every loco and a Revo in every sound box car. It may cost a little more but it gives me the controls that I want. The Revo makes MUing so easy that this way of running is easy to set up.

Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,

Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.

Hi Ward,

My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.

I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?

Jerry
 

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Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Oct 2009 07:56 AM
Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,

Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.

Hi Ward,

My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.

I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?

Jerry

Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such.

FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts.

I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week.

Stay tuned.

dave
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Posted By dbodnar on 09 Oct 2009 08:05 AM

Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such.

FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts.

I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week.

Stay tuned.

dave


Hi Dave,

I appreciate the information. As I've said I am a total novice with the Revolution.

Thanks,

Jerry
 

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Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?

I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.

Do you have any info?

Regards, Greg
 

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Jerry,
Dave answered your question as to why the aux functions can not directly drive lighting circuits. They can be used to control the smoke board which can be used as an on/off switch for devices up to 5 amp.

Dave,
I am very interested in your circuit board. I will be looking for a post announcing the web page is ready.
 

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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?

I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.

Do you have any info?

Regards, Greg


Greg - I believe that you should limit the current draw to 20 or 25 ma - I also believe that the outputs are buffered, not connected directly to the output pins of the processor.

I'll be back home on Monday and will have a closer look that should allow me to find the device that is used.

In any event, I would not use those outputs for anything other than logic signal connections...

dave
 

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I know Dave, I keep telling people to use them as logic signals, but people KEEP insisting. If we found out what they really are, then people might stop thinking of dangerous uses of them.

Is there any other board from Aristo (other than the smoke board) which can buffer these up to 100-500 ma each?

Regards, Greg
 

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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 02:43 PM
I know Dave, I keep telling people to use them as logic signals, but people KEEP insisting. If we found out what they really are, then people might stop thinking of dangerous uses of them.

Is there any other board from Aristo (other than the smoke board) which can buffer these up to 100-500 ma each?

Regards, Greg
Greg - there is no other Aristo product that buffers the outputs - I have designed such a board and will be posting information on it sometime next week. It gives six buffered outputs that can each handle 0.5 amps - the board can be used to operate LEDs, 5 volt relays or any other device that operates on voltages up to 5 volts.

dave
 

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Cool Dave!

Will you be putting bemf "snubber" diodes on it to protect the outputs if they are used with relays or other inductive loads?

Regards, Greg
 

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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 03:17 PM
Cool Dave!

Will you be putting bemf "snubber" diodes on it to protect the outputs if they are used with relays or other inductive loads?

Regards, Greg The device I am using (ULN2003a) has them built in so there is no need to add additional diode protection. That said, I have a habit of always adding a diode across the terminals of a relay, "Just in case!"

dave
 

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Looks good, 50v max on the internal clamp diodes should be enough. I always try to wire one right on the relay coil terminals, call me paranoid!

Will you be paralleling 2 of the outputs since you have 7 to work with, so you have one higher current one?

Looks like max package rating at 100% duty cycle takes you back to 100 ma each, did not look at the temp derating closely enough to see if that if a big factor.

Very cool... looking forward to seeing it and it will help a lot of people out.

Regards, Greg
 

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Hi Jerry
I may have this wrong as it is long thread , but did you say you were planning to run up to 20 amps through your track? If so that seems excessive as your I believe track runs under your house. Sorry if I got the info wrong
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Posted By Bills on 09 Oct 2009 08:50 PM
Hi Jerry
I may have this wrong as it is long thread , but did you say you were planning to run up to 20 amps through your track? If so that seems excessive as your I believe track runs under your house. Sorry if I got the info wrong
Bill

Hi Bill,

Sometimes I mention a layout without being specific because it can get confusing in that I have several layouts depending on how a layout is defined.

My comment about the 20 amps was somewhat hypothetical in that I was comparing running a pair of Aristo-Craft F1-ABBAs with lighted coaches under MTS (impossible because of the MTS 5 amp limit) to the Revolution where theoretically two F1-ABBAs equipped with 4 decoders (one decoder per AB set) could handle up to 20 amps and actually more because the smoke and coach lights are independently powered from the rails..

The actual maximum power I have available to run my layouts is about 15 amps and when running two F1-ABBA pullings a total of 12 lighted streamliners I don't get near the 15 amps but the trains do exceed the power available through several of my remote controls. I expect the Revolution to resolve the problem because receivers in the locos should be able to draw as much current and volts as necessary.

Jerry
 

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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?

I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.

Do you have any info?

Regards, Greg
Greg - I did some research on the devices that connect to the Auxiliary outputs on the Revolution. They are dual chip digital transistors (part # SUR521H) - the data sheet says that they can handle 100ma but I would not try that!

I put some photos and some information about the Auxiliary Interface that I have been designing on my web page at:

Auxiliary Interface

The interface is not quite done as the 5 volt version's regulator gets really hot when operated from higher voltages (15-23 volts) - I have ordered parts to change it over to a 12 volt system that should be more tolerant of higher voltages.

dave
 
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