[Rayman4449]

Hey guys, I haven't been on MLS in a while.

GG, on your Hudson, if I recall right wasn't the issue that it was originally thought to be a quartering issue and when you sent a video of the engine running slow we were able to point out that the eccentric arm was installed incorrectly on one side? I think it turned out that you indicated the arm was loose and you had to put back on and tighten it, but was put on in such a way that it was straining the valving support brace and once fixed the engine smoothed out? (So in the end it didn't have a quartering problem I don't think.)

On the photo of the bent down pilot, MTH had problems with shipping damage and the front pilots getting broken. It's another reason why they went so far on the enhanced packaging for the triplex. Main131, was it like that when you got it?

Got to chat with John some and it sounds like a couple of issues going on. One thing was it was running with a power supply set to Pulse width control on and not linear. Not sure if the PWC could have damaged the electronics or make it not run smooth but we did identify that. Now running on linear mode. (mentioning this for others who may read this.. do not run DCS engines under PWC) I still think the engine has a quartering issue as it sounds like it has minor binding at two spots per rev. There was some report of flickering of the lights, my guess is that if the wheels are clean we will find it's some sort of power pickup issue. burned trace, or something. On this engine, when front and rear engine sets are picking up power you should have no problems with getting constant power to the electronics.

When you want to clean the wheels, use alligator clips and clip on to the sliders directly from the power source, I wouldn't rely on the wheel pickups as only the second axle has power pickup brushes and you may not get reliable power transfer through the connecting rods from one axle set to another. (The front axles do have power pickups but those wheels have traction tires so...)

As far as the power pickup issue, I would interpret what MTH was saying was that if you aren't picking up power from either the inside wheel pickups or sliders on the front engine set then you have burned trace(s) on the rear power transfer board under the rear driver set. (the way to test this is to use a voltmeter and test for continuity between say the rear and front sliders(on the same side of the engine). If you have continuity, your trace is ok, if you don't it's blown on that side. The way MTH is fixing this now is to run a jumper wire along the top of the frame between the front and rear wires. This allows you to fix it without replacing the board.

The #2 axle on the rear engine set is the last power pickup in the chain so even if you have a high amp short that blows the trace between the rear engine slider and that wheel, you should still be picking up power from that wheel/axle.

If you truly don't have power pickup from only the inside wheel power pickups, I would remove the pickup assembly (held in by one screw) and see if it is plugged in. If it is, then I would make sure the brush wires aren't broken and if not, remove the rear plate under the wheel set and inspect the wires and board.

http:\\www.rayman4449.dynip.com\MTH_Big_Boy_Board_Cut_1.JPG -

http:\\www.rayman4449.dynip.com\MTH_Big_Boy_Board_Cut_2.JPG - here it is unplugged

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Shorting%20on%20Cross-over%20/%20Slider%20modification - For reference




If the MTH service center is going to have the engine open, I would request that they insulate the motor diode from the frame while they are in there:

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Electrically%20Isolating%20the%20Motor%20Diode


Good luck, look forward to hearing how you make out.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

I didn't weigh in on your original question but yes I would go ahead and lubricate the side rods and the axles. The gears are already greased and you won't have any issue with it sitting for just 1 year. (The only gears on the engine are on the rear axle and motor... power is transfered to the #3, 2, and 1 axles via the connecting rods.

Well hopefully they can take care of the quartering too (assuming it needs to be corrected).

The fact that you had no power pickup from the front engine set confirms you have a burned trace(s) and is most likely why you were having the lights flicker. That is actually good news because it's easy to fix and should mean you don't have anything more serious going on.

Just for a full understanding, is your track/layout outside? Are you using brass or Stainless steel? How long has the track been deployed?

You may also want to consider adding fuses between the front and rear engine sets. It's not hard to do and may save you trouble in the future.

http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Big_Boy_mods.htm#Adding%20fuses%20between%20front%20and%20rear%20engine%20power%20pickup%20wires%20to%20protect%20from%20short%20damage



Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Ok good deal.

All I will say is that engine can be made to run right, the question is will they or do they have the ability to fix it (and I'm talking about the quartering). If you get that engine back and it has hesitations at slow speed, and they say it either did not have quartering issues or they fixed it then it needs to go back to MTH directly. I hope they get it all fixed up too.

If you do still have the issue, the key way to tell if you have a quartering problem is: when looking at the fireman's side while it's moving forward, if you see a hesistation with the rods/rod pins on an engine set at around the 4 to 5 o'clock position (actually between the 4 and 5 position), then that's a quartering problem. (You are having an impact of the #2 axle and #3 axle connecting rod on the engineer side into the #2 driver rod pin. (Axles numbered from front to back 1, 2, 3, 4)) The #2 rod pin hasn't been pulled round far enough and is still on the way up in it's rotation. You will really need clear visibility to both sides to watch this happen and you need to run it VERY slowly. (1 SMPH) Also, apply some resistance to the front (#1) driver/axle to accentuate the problem. That should help it be more visible. Because I know what to look for, I actually do this with the engine on it's side and rotate the #4 driver by hand and apply resistance on the #1 axle.

Ok, I'm done. (just wanted to give all the info in case you need it)

Let us know how you make out.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Glad to hear the good news, enjoy!


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Posted By GG on 05/12/2009 9:05 PM
Posted By Rayman4449 on 05/12/2009 8:34 PM
Ok good deal.

All I will say is that engine can be made to run right, the question is will they or do they have the ability to fix it (and I'm talking about the quartering). If you get that engine back and it has hesitations at slow speed, and they say it either did not have quartering issues or they fixed it then it needs to go back to MTH directly. I hope they get it all fixed up too.

If you do still have the issue, the key way to tell if you have a quartering problem is: when looking at the fireman's side while it's moving forward, if you see a hesistation with the rods/rod pins on an engine set at around the 4 to 5 o'clock position (actually between the 4 and 5 position), then that's a quartering problem. (You are having an impact of the #2 axle and #3 axle connecting rod on the engineer side into the #2 driver rod pin. (Axles numbered from front to back 1, 2, 3, 4)) The #2 rod pin hasn't been pulled round far enough and is still on the way up in it's rotation. You will really need clear visibility to both sides to watch this happen and you need to run it VERY slowly. (1 SMPH) Also, apply some resistance to the front (#1) driver/axle to accentuate the problem. That should help it be more visible. Because I know what to look for, I actually do this with the engine on it's side and rotate the #4 driver by hand and apply resistance on the #1 axle.

Ok, I'm done. (just wanted to give all the info in case you need it)

Let us know how you make out.


Raymond








Bingo,

Ray, you put the techno into the beautiful product. Option ... take the shell off and look at operation on the plan view.

gg

 

[Rayman4449]

That's unfortunate.

The short condition that apparently still exists has now blown the/a trace from the back side and you are now probably only picking up power from the rear wheel power pickup.

For others reading this in the future doing searches, this is why this repair requires an understanding of the root cause (i.e. service center responsibility to have the knowledge to understand what questions to ask the owner about layout conditions and to know certain things to check like slider screw height) and the addition of some sort of safegard to ensure the traces from the other direction (which are much larger and can handle even higher amps) are not burned out as well. In this case some sort of polyfuse should have been included in the jumper wires to ensure the traces weren't blown by the what is an obviously still exsiting short condition that keeps happening. Most likely there is either a cross-over or switch where the sliders screws or sliders are shorting. I suppose a powered frog with incorrect polarity could be a possibility as well. I recommend folks dealing with this issue thoroughly read the Big Boy section under the Modifications and Repair page on my website that has write-ups that deals with this issue to ensure you don't have repeat situations such as this happen to you with this engine. (Either that or have your repair center read and understand it.) This is another unfortunate example of us as the consumer not being able to just fully rely on those tasked with fixing these things for us.

Of course the real issue was the oversight in not including a polyfuse + larger power trace on the front side of the board to begin with in the original circuit design. I never checked to see how the new Triplex rear board was setup, I assume the issue has been resolved/addressed.

In a sad irony I just ran my 3 MTH Big Boys for several hours yesterday with no issue (as is always the case) and am about to go run them again in a little bit.

Sorry yours is a bust for you. Hope you can get a full refund.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Robbie's account as to how it's behaving now isn't how I understood the problem the first time. If this is in fact what is and was going on and you are smelling that much burnt electronics it sounds like there is an internal short between track or motor power and some other DCS power circuit. The symptom about the sound from the speaker sounding terrible is a good indication of this. This would point to one key thing to check but since it's being returned for a refund it's a moot point.

As a note, if a slider screw is hanging too low it can make contact with (just brush against) the top of the opposing rails under it as it crosses over switches or crossovers and cause a brief short. It's not likely to be a problem but it is a possibility. I've only seen one slider screw sitting too low out of maybe 40.

The unfortunate thing you ran into with the Aristocraft Mallets is that from what I've heard they don't really fix the problem on the motorblocks, they slap new ones on there and send it back out. Unfortunately, every single Mallet and Mikado I've converted (total of 11 engines with 21 separate motorblocks), all 21 had quartering problems to one degree or another.

Good luck.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

That definitely sounds like a power pickup issue and the smell being from overheated traces on the power transfer boards. What amp fuse were you running in the positive wire? A single Big Boy should only need a max of a 5 amp fuse. (Except under extreme test load conditions could run with a 3amp fuse and never blow it.) Do you have an amp meter that you were/could reference? Did the malfuntioning as far as erratic speed etc start after the power pickup problem started?

At this point since there is only one switch with a plastic frog then the next most likely problem is a slider screw shorting. Would also suspect too that the malfunctions are now a result of the lack of power pickup. The bad sound though still stands out as a question. Just need someone knowledgeable to look it over and fix it and put polyfuses in it.

Don't feel so bad, if you've spent any time reading my repair page you can see how many problems and hours I've spent fixing problems from all the diff mfgs.

(like my $3500 USA Big Boy going up in smoke from some internal short after only 100ft of travel on it's first run.) The common thread to all of them is, once you get the problem causing you problems resolved, they all run reliably.

I wouldn't want fish unless I could have an underwater model train running on the bottom.

Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Hey TLS,

The fuse I was just talking about would be one that you would put in-line in the positive wire between your Transformer/Power supply and the TIU/Track. (Not sure I asked but are you running with the TIU and wireless remote or just controlling the speed with track voltage?)

Here is the type of fuse I use: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/FSA-3/3-AMP-BLADE-FUSE/-/1.html

If you aren't running with one I'd stop running any trains immediately and go to the auto parts store or Walmart and pickup a fuse holder and some fuses. A 3 amp fuse would be good for what you are doing now in test runs and would blow quickly the second the engine hit the short that it's encountering. This might also help you troubleshoot whether this is a track level issue(which is what I bet it is) or something in the engine. Do not rely on the transformer's circuit breaker as short protection.

As an FYI, this is what I use for Polyfuses (which are a self-resetting fuse) http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RXE-065/RESETTABLE-CIRCUIT-PROTECTOR-0.65-1.3-AMP/-/1.html with each having a 1.3 amp trip current I'd probably put three of these together in parallel to give you an effective 3.9amp trip current in each of the two track power wires they now have going from the front engine to the rear. I realize you won't be the one to do it but wanted to share it anyway in case someone will for you.

If you have the desire and time, put the engine on a piece of test track and get down to where the slider meets the rail and note where each slider screw head is in height relation to the horizontal plane of the top of the two rails. If the screw has some distance then you are ok, if it looks like it might touch the top of a rail if one passed under it (as would happen on a switch) then that scew may need some adjustment to sit further up in the screw hole.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

I agree with GG. If you think you can stick it out I'd do it as the other option is to esentially just give up on having a G scale Big Boy running on your layout. I've been where you are and it's not fun, but the positive side is if you do take any time looking into some of these issues at least in to some degree yourself you do stand to learn a little more about how your trains work and can sometimes gain a little more self-sufficience in taking care of issues on your own.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I think I understood you guys are in St. Louis? I'm in Kansas City. I'd be glad to look at if you are coming this way and want to bring it with you.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Hey John,

Go and get some 3 and 5 amp fuses and start with using the 3 amp ones. A three amp fuse should blow the second it hits that spot causing the shorts. If we are able to get together I should be able to eliminate the issue that's causing the shorts to begin with but just in case it will be good insurance for the future and there is really no going to be much need to run over 3 amps if you're just running the Big Boy. A 20amp fuse is really too big and isn't providing the protection you are needing in this case. (especially if the power supply is only rated at I think 10 amps?) I always try to run with a fuse that has say no more than 5 amps over what I'm drawing from all the engines I'm running on the layout at any given time. Another handy idea is to run with two fuse holders in the positive wire. If you need to go up a step on the fuses or down, you can put the next fuse you want to use in the other holder then pull the other you were using. That way you don't need to power your stuff down and can keep everything running as you have no break in power to the track.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Robbie,

It was a real pleasure to meet John and your dad in person today.

The problem was again another blown trace in a different location. From what I could see it looked like it could have very well been slider screws which are now fixed. Only thing was that I ran it couple times over my switches before modification and it didn't blow the now newly installed fuses. It may just have been so close that it wasn't hitting every time. Also it may be a slider short but it's hard to believe it would be. At this point, the engine is now protected from further trace damage. Also did a number of other things to help ensure there are no other problems. At this point I think you guys will be good to go.

One thing I will clarify is in talking with John some he thought back and did say that they did in fact run the Big Boy with that switch in place for at least part of the time after they got it back from being repaired. So it's still the likely reason for the issue.

The quartering was great, no hesitation because of that at all.

Hmmm.... I don't like what I'm reading about that Aristocraft power supply. If I was in your shoes, I would ditch it and get a Bridgewerks and be done with it. (I know you said money was tight) Remember that if you damage one or more engine electronics because of a faulty or cheap power supply you aren't saving any money in the long run. All I will say is just be careful with it.

For that deal John can get the TIU and remote for $220, I'd jump on that. That's all you need to finish off the system.

Was the first time to see 4 MTH Big Boys running on the layout today and what a sight. Got videos and photos and may post some later.

Thanks Nick.

Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Great news Robbie.

If you decide to add the switch back and think the sliders may be swinging out far enough to cross short, then try adding the nylon washers to the first and fouth axles and see if that limits the play enough to keep from causing the problem. We've eliminated the slider screws as a possibility now so we're down to the sliders as the only remaining potential issues you could encounter with it.

In the end it would be a good idea to do some initial checking at some point with the switches you have. (put the engine on the switch and slide the body and frame side to side to find the max distance of travel on each side and compare it to the potential areas of cross short. If you have a potential contact point, you can then see if the nylon washers would limit it enough. If not you can then look at reworking the sliders. In fact, if you want you could mail them to me and I can rework them if you ended up needing that, but I bet you won't. In the end I've never seen a switch that came anywhere close to creating a potential situation of a slider cross short due to it sliding out and striking an opposing rail. If you do check it let me know what you find as I'd be curious to hear. I should have told John to bring the switches with him.

With the modifications done so far, you should be able to run on anything except a 19.5 degree Aristocraft crossover, so you are pretty much there I think. Keep us posted.

And thank you very much John for the kind words. Meeting great folks like you and your dad is what really makes this hobby so great. You both are welcome back anytime and will look you guys up next time I'm in St. Louis.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

So what do you do when you have 32lbs of raw drawbar pull put in front of you?....

You run it!

John's engine is in the lead position. This was a first to have 4 of these engines on the track at once and it was quite a sight to see.

Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Hey Jim,

I was really neat to see. Figured I better capture the moment as you can't know now many more times I will see that many MTH Big Boys in one place again. They did sound fantastic. After hearing mine I think John's going to replace the speaker and go with some sort of open backed speaker enclosure like I did.

One bit of clarification, in chatting with John some it sounds like the sliders actually are not able to make contact with an opposing and the theory at this time is that it was a slider screw hanging too low that was contacting the switch rail head.


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

Video???

Ask an you shall receive.

Video #26

www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-2000kbs.wmv - 39MB - 2000kbs
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-1000kbs.wmv - 22MB - 1000kbs
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-26-300kbs.wmv - 10MB - 300kbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp6B_fmNlyo&feature=channel&fmt=18 - YouTube HQ

Video #27

www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-2000kbs.wmv - 46mb - 2000kbs
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-1000kbs.wmv - 26mb - 1000kbs
www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_BigBoyx4_Video-27-300kbs.wmv - 12mb - 300kbs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi__f72EedU&fmt=18 - YouTube HQ


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

I didn't catch that Robbie posted a link until just now.

Here is a direct link in HQ in case you missed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3D6BHEv9rA&fmt=18


Raymond

 

[Rayman4449]

One other thing I forgot to mention, for anyone looking to test for power pickup problems on this engine there is now one other step to do, check for electrical continuity (all on the rear engine set) between the rear inside wheel power pickup and the slider. Note, you will want to test the inside wheel power pickup with direct contact to the brush away and at the same time keep the brush from making contact with the driver because power will pass through the connecting rods to the front wheel power pickup which will give a false reading of ok continuity. This is because in John's case the trace burn was between the slider on the rear engine set and the last inside wheel power pickup.(which is the first time I've seen this) The remaining traces between the front engine set and the slider on the rear engine set were fine. Also, the service center repaired the actual traces and did not run jumper wires across the top of the frame as I've seen MTH do before.

Also on the claim by the service center that there was a factory defect of the connection not being made on one of the traces, I can almost guarantee that the trace was in fact burned due to short because when I first inspected my first engine originally, I didn't see the trace burn and only found it through doing continuity checks between the different points. It burned in such a way that it was barely separated with no sign of overheating. Also, the places they fixed are the places that burn out in shorts.

Ok enough with the repair discussion, back to the videos.

Raymond