[StackTalk]

Simon,

I have seen The Train twice so far in recent years and I will see it again next time it is on when I happen to be around. When I think of the film, I remember near the end, while the train is stopped, one can hear the reciprocating steam-driven water pump pumping water into the boiler - or at least this is what I am imagining that I am hearing as we never see it. Of course, they have the blower open to maintain draft as well. Great flick.

On the J&Ms . . .

I have heard now a few experienced steamer hobbyists who have been around this community for a long time insisting that these J&M coaches in good condition should sell for about $500 to $550 USD. Do you believe it?

I note that not a one of them has offered to sell me theirs for any price so far. I will pay more for PRR J&Ms. So now I will wait for the flood of the private offers to flow in.

I bet they turn me down if I offer $750 each? What do you think, Simon?

So how much are these coaches worth again?

* * *

The hunt is as much fun as the kill sometimes, Simon, so I wait and we will see what happens. I am in no real hurry.

I am very much enjoying this thread - and a number (most) other threads here too.

I have another Aster loco to build, but I am not talking.

Dabbling in a few small related projects as well

Regards,

Joe

PS: I have three English Pullmans so far and I would not mind finding a couple more. I have been told that the Golden Age Models are much nicer and perhaps I may buy one, but could they be worth twice the price of a J&M?

Perhaps I am too easily pleased, but I find the J&M English Pullmans to be quite beautiful.

 

[du-bousquetaire]

I also have refused to pay over $500-600 for J & M cars weather continental or US, if you are patient you will find what you need. I think that they are well suited to our practice of live steam out doors, they are detailed yet robust and stand up to time well. The only complain I have with them is their excessive weight.

Too much detail can only break off and end up in the ballast. That's one of the nice thing about track maintenance: You are often rewarded by finding a much needed part you lost a few months before! I don't have much track maintenance to do, but I do have a moss invasion every winter. At spring I prune out this moss on the wood sleepered track. Time consuming but very relaxing...

 

[StackTalk]

Time for a thread resurrection . . .

There have been a number of related events that have occurred since the latest update which have tempted me to resurrect this thread, but then I stopped myself.

Purely from a self-interest point of view, why report relatively high prices for J&M coaches and carriages? Doing so may be counter-productive from the point of view of someone who wishes to acquire a few more, right?

My interest is narrow and getting narrower all of the time as I run out of place to store these rather large items that may not even ever get proper use over time.

I have been interested in:

British Pullmans
PRR Heavyweights
CIWL cars

In my communication with John Waggott, I learned that J&M made about 10,000 units during his tenure and about 100 different examples. If these models were made in equal quantities - certainly not the case - there would be 100 of each kind in existence. Unfortunately, John kept no records so we'll never know how many of each were made.

As far as U.S. outline coaches or cars go, I know of two, possibly three rail lines where J&M made heavyweights:

New York Central
Pennsylvania Railroad
Southern Pacific?

Please feel free to "fill in the blanks" if anyone has additional knowledge.

I placed a question mark after to SP, because I haven't been able to find any such examples on-line except for the few I once saw on Ebay.de being offered by Bernd Zielke. Perhaps these were renamed NYC cars?

Here is what I know for sure concerning PRR and NYC:

Pennsylvania Railroad

Baggage & Club Car with barber chair (combine) :

Liberty Bell
Liberty Park

Dining Car

4487
8016

Passenger Coach:

Edgar Allen Poe
Mark Twain

Observation Car:

Federal Hall
Liberty Hall

Are there any others?

New York Central

Baggage & Club Car with barber chair (combine) :

Van Rensselaer
Van Twiller
Van Winkle

Dining Car:

381
382
383
387

Passenger Coach:

Albany
Churchville
Troy

Observation Car:

Catskill Valley
Elkhart Valley
Hudson Valley
Mohawk Valley

Are there any others?

These days, these cars and the CIWL cars in good condition are selling for, from between $600 and $1200 +/- Asking price seems to be around $1,000 typically though some are not selling at that price.

Days ago there was a bidding war on Ebay.fr for a Felche d'Or and a Le train Bleu car where the prices ended up high. They may have stayed in France?

To me this makes sense because, even though the market may be shrinking, the supply is finite and there is essentially no competition.

If J&M made BR Mk Is, they probably would be selling on the cheap because we have well-made, albeit resin, G1MRC/Accucraft coaches available.

But if you want a British Pullman, there are only "old" J&Ms or else truly splendid Golden Age Models. (I just bought "Lucille recently and it is a beauty.) But G.A.Ms are 1150 GBP.

J&M (Executive Models) will likely make a few CIWL cars, but they won't be cheap either.

Still no other heavyweights in 1:32 around . . . nor any very likely.

* * * * * *

I was able to recently purchase a blemished Liberty Park for a price that would meet the approval of Dr. Rivet, Simon, Ryan and some others . . . because it is not perfect and I was able to negotiate a fair price. it needs a few minor repairs in addition to touch-up where seen below.

What color should the rooftop of a PRR J&M heavyweight be? I now have two cars with two colors. Which, if either, should I change back?

Here is the blemish on my new-old car:

Some additional shots with and without flash:

Cheers,

Joe

Edit]/b]: Added the two known PRR Dining Cars

 

[boilingwater]

Hi Joe,

For the Pennsy cars, the car at the bottom looks like the ones I used to own so I'm thinking that is proper color. I think I have some Liberty Hall sides but not sure. I'll check.

It looks like you have a pretty complete list there. I have some old J&M dealer brochures from the 1980s and a J&M brochure. I can look at that tonight to see if there were others offered.

Sam

 

[StackTalk]

Sam,

Thanks.

When these cars are photographed individually by others, it is difficult to tell the actual colors. For example, the last two photographs taken by me today are of the same car, one with flash and one with natural sunlight only. Of course, side-by-side there is a huge difference between the two coach roofs, (or rooves if you prefer the old term.) The lighter color roof is my EAP and the darker color is LP.

If your two LH sides are in good shape and you want to sell them, I would not mind converting my LP into an LH w/o blemish.

Regards,

Joe

 

[boilingwater]

Joe,

The PRR and NYC list checks out based on brochures I have from Gauge One America and Garden Railway Company back in the 1980s. There is no other road names listed. Perhaps someone else knows if they did a run of SP cars but I've personally never seen originals except from those two lines.


The European stuff I have the original J&M 16 page brochure and the listing for all the J&M cars. If interested, I can copy some of that and send your way.


I'll have to look at the Liberty Hall sides. I've had them for a long while so I'll let you know.


Sam

 

[Dr Rivet]

The only SP heavyweight J&M cars I have seen are the NYC ones Alan Redeker relettered to run as part of his San Joaquin Daylight.

 

[StackTalk]

Gentlemen, thanks again.

The image below was taken from an Ebay ad in July of 2014.

It was actually an NYC Catskill Valley car. Someone simply swapped the NYC end-plate for the SP end-plate.

At the time, I knew a lot less on the subject than I know now . . . and hopefully, one day, I will know more than I know now.

It looks like I have been able to back into a list of what was produced that is consistent with the information that Sam has saved from days gone by, and is consistent with Jim's recollection and observation.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Dr Rivet]

Joe

The "tail sign" in the image above is exactly like a railroad pin I have. I suspect that is what it is made from.

 

[boilingwater]

Joe,

I have a bit more info for you.


On the PRR heavyweights, the Edgar Allan Poe and Mark Twain had two variations: One was red body/black roof and the other was red body/brown roof had stripes (gold) and green truck frame.


I saw there were two NYC Heavyweights today...missed the Troy...oh well. Please keep an eye out for me...


Sam

 

[rbednarik]

All car types of the J&M PRR heavyweights were available in either the Tuscan deluxe striped scheme with the olive trucks and brown roof or the Tuscan red with black roof and trucks.

The list here is fairly good for the names on the PRR cars, but it is lacking the Dining Car

+ PRR dining car is not named but numbered 4487 (possibly other numbers available)

These too were available in the Tuscan body, striped with olive trucks and brown roof or Tuscan body black roof/trucks.
Dining cars in PRR seem to be a bit on the rare side as far as coming up for sale, but like the others, they are out there.

No other names for the 12-1 section Pullman cars in the PRR schemes available other than Mark Twain and Edgar Allan Poe that I know of or have literature to support.

All other PRR specific names seem to be correct with both literature and known existing models.

The dining cars are also the only J&M cars to actually state the name of the railroad, although it is implied by the names on the other cars and the colour schemes used. The combine, observation and 12-1 Pullmans all say Pullman, for both NYC and PRR schemes,

 

[rbednarik]

Joe,

I have seen that variation on the brown PRR roof colouring on two Mark Twain cars side by side.

I suspect the rooves were made in different batches, so perhaps the pigment for the resin changed. Could also be UV fading if the car was exposed to the sun or under a fluorescent display lamp.

Take a look at the cars in the below video, notice the difference in the roof colors between the lined cars. The color difference is as true in the video as if you saw it in person.

Timestamp to look at is from 13:40 to 14:00. Specifically look at 13:58 for the difference. Looks similar to your two cars difference.

The darker of the two colors is correct, the beige color is certainly an error.

 

[StackTalk]

Thanks Sam and Ryan for the further demystification.

Sam, it seems that neither Troy nor Mohawk Valley sold for the $999 price. Perhaps they will be re-listed.

John may have produced more of the NYC varieties than the PRR, but we are unlikely to learn the quantities produced for each type.

Thus far, I have only seen the PRR versions that are painted deluxe Tuscan with gold striping and green trucks. I wondered about the lack of a PRR dining car, Ryan, as there are at least four numbered dining cars for the NYC.

The two PRR cars that I have do not appear to have been repainted. The video does show the same chestnut brown and dark yellow-brown ochre as seen in my EAP and LP, so this does suggest that they are aged originals.

Perhaps I will repaint the rooves at some point a chestnut color.

The hunt goes on.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[boilingwater]

Joe,My info comes largely from brochures from the 80s. The NYC cars were made first for the most part. The NYC observation cars and club baggage cars were produced later in 1984 according to a letter I have from Gauge One America (Fran Devore).


I had a set of the PRR cars but Hans acquired them many moons ago. I didn't take pictures unfortunately. Ryan, of course, looks have more up-to-date information. No PRR diner is mentioned in any of the early literature I have.




Sam

 

[David Leech]

My list is dated 1st January '86, and shows:
G1A/210 American Pullman Dining Car - NYC £525
G1A/211 American Pullman Dining Car - Pennsylvania Tuscan Red - Gold/Black Lines £545
Of course, being in a catalogue does not necessarily mean it was built!
If that helps in the discussion at all!
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada

 

[StackTalk]

Well I reckon that we are building an informal - and possibly inaccurate - limited knowledge base that 99.999999% of the world's population does not know or care about.

As long as the information is vitally important to someone, it's all good.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: For those who may have interest, there are a couple of Excel spreadsheets floating around the Net that document where and when various Pullman Cars were built and where they were deployed. The document I am looking at now was produced by a Tom Madden in February of 2001.

If one had more than one of each, J&M Edgar Allen Poe and Mark Twain, one could rename additional PRR cars with the Pullman 3410B plan:

Admiral Dewey
Bret Harte
Daniel Boone
Edward Preble (later Calvin Coolidge)
Henry W. Longfellow
James Fenimore Cooper
James Russel Lowell
James Whitcomb Riley
John Edgar Howard
John Greenleaf Whittier
Ralph Waldo Emerson
and a couple of others.

NYC Cars listed as well.

If there is interest I will try and find the link.

2nd Edit:

Spreadsheet formated database here:

The Pullman Project

 

[boilingwater]

Joe,

Thanks for posting. Well, from the number of hits on this thread, it appears a few-- in that very small vein-- are interested. Apparently, someone was interested enough to purchase four NYC cars on Sunday for 1K each...

Sam

 

[StackTalk]

Joe,

Thanks for posting. Well, from the number of hits on this thread, it appears a few-- in that very small vein-- are interested. Apparently, someone was interested enough to purchase four NYC cars on Sunday for 1K each...

Sam

It appears that way to me as well, Sam. Those four cars went so fast, I thought that you had bought them!

The previous two are either still at the seller in NY or they may have sold as well?

Two weeks ago, a Le train Bleu car went for $1,200 and a blue/white Fleche d'Or went for $1,460.00

It makes sense that, if they are becoming increasingly rare and with no prospects of replacements in the queue, they would not be going down in value.

I don't want to discuss prices any longer as I am still looking for a couple of PRR cars in pristine condition for $450 each.

Cheers,

Joe

PS: I am glad I haven't "accidentally" bought a Hudson as yet. If I should "accidentally" purchase one, I'd have to buy some of those green cars and where would I put them?

I have reflected recently that the original maroon boxes that they come in are about twice as wide and 1 1/2 as high and a bit longer, so 3+X the cubic volume of the car. Then they came out of a wooden crate which no one should throw away, right? The crate is about 1.5 x width and 1.5 x height and a bit longer than the box so is that is 2.5 X the cubic volume of the maroon box and what? 7 to 8 X the cubic volume of the car? If we display one of these in a display case that is another 2 X the cubic volume of the car. Where does one put all this stuff:

Edited out my hyperbole.

 

[StackTalk]

Interestingly . . .

A J&M Etoile du Nord dining car (4004E) in white over blue is up to 1300 Euro with three days to go on Ebay. 11 bidders and 23 bids so far. The last half a dozen CIWL cars have drawn a fair amount of interest relatively speaking. I am one of the 11 and I was interested, but not THAT interested.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: Sold for 1,410 Euro ($1,513.00)

 

[rbednarik]

With regards to the PRR Dining car, new evidence of existence.

Here are two photos of the PRR Diner in Tuscan body, striped with olive trucks/underbody and brown roof.

Number is 8016, so that adds to the 4487 unlined that I know of (photos coming soon).
There may have been different numbers between the two paint schemes as well

As one can see, it is essentially the same as the NYC dining cars except for the paint.