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So when J&M just isn't good enough you buy these! A beautifully built set of Brighton Belle motor car set. Built by Golden Age in the UK. First full test run with both motor cars and the full 8 cars. That's 10 cars for the ful prototypical train that ran. Amazing the detail on these cars. All brass of course.

For some real nice detail images

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/brighton-belle-coaches-gallery.html



 

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Discussion Starter · #222 · (Edited)
Delayed reaction . . . ;-)

No doubt Quentin's Golden Age Models are beautiful, though the detail work is hard to appreciate while they are seen moving at speed.

So let's stop and take a look at just one car, Lucille:



and . . .



and . . .



I just have the one beautiful Golden Age Model Car . . .

Interestingly enough, three of the Pullmans that I have are world travelers which appear to have been in the same consist at one time or another, Lucille, Lydia and Ibis.

The Golden Age Models are generally built with the gray roof color, so one will generally have to accept a blend of white roof and silver roof models if one combines J&Ms with GAMs and one has not placed a custom order with Quentin for white roof color.

Repainting is always an option though it would be a lot easier to repaint a J&M roof than it would be to repaint a GAM roof due to a simpler construction on the J&M.

Concerning Brighton Belle . . .

I learned that there were 12 coaches built and three Motor Brake Driver Cars. A train in service usually consisted of two sets of five cars or ten units in all as shown in the video.

I am told that the spare 5-BEL set was sometimes steam-hauled for summer excursions, but I haven't found an on-line reference to support these cars being steam-hauled.

Edit
: See correction below.



Cheers,

Joe
 

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Joe,
Each 5BEL (Brighton Belle) set was made up as:
Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers
Third Class Parlour seating 56 passengers
First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers
First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers (reversed third car)
Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers (reversed first car)
So, in total numbers, there were:
6 x Driving Motor Third seating 48 passengers
3 x Third Class Parlour seating 56 passengers
6 x First Class Parlour with kitchen seating 20 passengers
I would doubt if they would have ever been steam hauled, as not sure if they could put the in neutral, so to speak, but you never know.
Also, the 'spare' was just that, and I don't think that they would risk having it in use just in case.
Incidentally, the 'spare' was always in rotation with the other cars, each set being a spare for 4 months during the year.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
 

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Discussion Starter · #224 ·
David,

Thank you as always. Got it!

A driving motor car at each end.

From the Wiki; (therefore no iron-clad no guaranty of accuracy:)

"Three five-car all-Pullman electric multiple units designated 5-BEL were commissioned by the Southern Railway as the flagship of the world's then-largest electrification project, which covered over 160 track miles.

The 15 cars – built in 1932 by Metropolitan-Cammell at its Saltley works in Birmingham – were operated in trains comprising two units, the remaining unit normally held in reserve.

The 'spare' multiple unit set was used for a Sunday Pullman service from Eastbourne, known as the Eastbourne Pullman for much of the 1950s, but this service was discontinued in 1957."

As I indicated above, no mention of steam-hauling though someone from 'the other side,' who shall remain nameless indicated to me that the Sunday excursion train was sometimes steam-hauled.

It's nice that there is almost always someone in here who can fill in the blanks for us or steer the wayward toward a path of knowledge. ;)

Cheers,

Joe
 

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Joe

When the Sunday excursion service was "steam hauled" it was because an extra 5-BEL was unavailable and regular Pullman parlor cars were used.

I commend to you any and all of the four volumes on British Pullmans authored by Antony Ford.
 

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Discussion Starter · #226 · (Edited)
Joe

When the Sunday excursion service was "steam hauled" it was because an extra 5-BEL was unavailable and regular Pullman parlor cars were used.

I commend to you any and all of the four volumes on British Pullmans authored by Antony Ford.
Jim, thanks. Looks like Pullman Profile #4 would cover this nicely.

I looked for these volumes in the usual places, Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Ebay, etc. and found them favorably priced at:

The Book Depository

I have been getting much of my British Pullman information from these sites:

The Southern E-Group

There is a large (huge) amount of data including archived magazine articles on the S E-G site. Jim Pitts put me on to this sometime ago. It could take an hour or so just to locate and peruse the indexes. Sometimes I simply forget to look for it. ;-)

and . . .

Kent Rail

Cheers,

Joe
 

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Five Brighton Belle Pullman carriages are currently being restored for use under their own power on the UK main line network. Test running is planned for later this year, and public service is scheduled for 2017.

As one who travelled on the Brighton Belle 45 years ago I am looking forward to repeating the experience very soon!

More details of this interesting project can be found here: http://www.brightonbelle.com/
 

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Interesting when they talk about returning to mainline running.
I assume that they will still need the outside third rail, so it does kind of limit where they can run.
Locally here in Canada, we have an interurban that is run with a 'generator/battery' car behind, so maybe they will do something like that?
Time will tell.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
 

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I received email from Quentin yesterday:
"We are pleased to confirm that Pullman set 3051 is still available at this
moment. This is indeed the last set we have in the classic Pullman colours.

We also have just one set in the later BR Blue & Grey livery, which is
attractive in its own way because it has "Brighton Belle" on the body sides.

The price is GBP 6400 excluding UK taxes and including shipping and full
tracking by UPS to Canada."
I assume that shipping to the US would be the same, so that's $10,000 US.
I think that I will make my own, certainly not as nice as Golden Age ones, but more in my price range.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
 

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David

At current exchange rates GBP 6400 is only $9,240 US, but $11,880 CAN
I paid somewhat less given that I purchased two sets, and only three weeks ago the exchange rate was more favorable to me.

I can appreciate that you can build your own, but for us mortals of model building; if you want something, you go to whomever is building it.
 

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Interesting when they talk about returning to mainline running.
I assume that they will still need the outside third rail, so it does kind of limit where they can run.
The UK has quite a lot of mainline track with third rail. With only a few exceptions the whole network south of London is covered from Margate in eastern Kent as far west as Weymouth in Dorset. There are also third rail systems around north London and from Southport in Lancashire through Liverpool to Chester in Cheshire.

It is my understanding that the BB set is being refurbished in such a way that it can also be hauled by diesel and electric locomotives which will provide on-board power as required.
 

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Hi fellows:
Just got back from our transcontinental USA trip with a good deal of roaming around the PRR middle division to get the feel of the place. So I am picking this thread up after a long absence. I think that I have an explanation to what ever hapened with the Smokers on that J & M set (At least on the PRR ones) A recent article on Dover Harbour in the PRRT&HS Keystone by editor Chuck Blardone sheds a bit of light on what their second career was: After the fleet of modernism sets came out in 1938 these smoker-combine cars where out of work. It probably seems that the all male smokers might have come out of fashion too around then. As I guess in the middle of the depression afluent businesmen smoking big cigars, might not have abounded as before... Anyways these cars would have been rebuilt as Dover Harbour type plan cars. I will look up the article in the morning and give more precise detail, but if I remember they were equiped with a lounge then. But these cars certainly did grace those consists before 1938.
That doesn't stop me from using it with my post 1938 PRR consists though. Just interesting to know what hapened to them.
 

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Here is the low down I promised: I am not sure that this diagram which I will describe is identical to the Liberty Bell baggage-buffet club smoking cars with barber shop, but it pretty well matches the description. On the photo of the Welsh Broadway Limited book one can read that it is diagram 2958 or 9 under the photo.

I quote Mr. Blardones article: Pullman built heavyweight Dover Harbor on July 1923 as the combination Baggage- library car Maple Shade, the first of six baggage-buffet-club smoking cars with Barber shop, bath and shower built to plan 2951 B in lot 4698. The 81-foot car weighed 80 tons and had a four section, 12 seat lounge, a barber shop, and a 28 foot baggage area. Painted in PRR's standard colors (Tuscan red), it operated for11 years at the head of the PRR New York to St. Louis service.../ ... On march 13 1934 Maple Shade along with six sisters returned to Pullman for rebuilding into plan 4015C 6DBR- Buffet-lounge cars (by replacing the baggage section with revenue producing bedrooms) it was fitted with air conditioning, its trucks were changed from 242 to 2410 A, and it was renamed Dover Harbor.../ ... it was repainted in Pullman green and it was assigned to the Michigan central (NYC).

And I wanted to use it behind my GG1, my T1 and my Alco’s PA1 darn!
 

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Discussion Starter · #235 · (Edited)
Time for a little follow-up . . .

I never did "pull the trigger" on that last Brighton Belle set and I do see that G.A.M. may be in some jeopardy. I do hope things get sorted as these models are among the most beautiful and there are so few of equal quality being made for Gauge 1.

There is an "urgent appeal" message on the Golden Age Models site.

Urgent Appeal

Meanwhile . . .

I have noticed that there are fewer J&M models turning up at the auction houses than there were when this thread began, or so is my perception even if my observation may be off. ;)

There is no reason to think that J&Ms are going to become more available over time as there aren't any more of them to ripen on the vine.

Currently I have three Etoile du Nord J&M coaches and I saw an opportunity to acquire two that I did not yet have which were being auctioned off today at Tennants Auction House:



and this one as well:



The auction house thought they'd sell for between 200 and 300 GBP, but I was sure that they'd sell for more.

Knowing that I would not be up early in the day today, this day after Thanksgiving celebration, I set my auto-bid to what I thought would be the highest I would want to go for these - 750 GBP - and if I had managed to remember to log in and live bid, I am sure I'd have gone a bit higher.

You snooze; you lose.

Turns out that one person more interested than I, bought them for 800 GBP each. I wonder what would have happened had I set my bid for 850? They'd have probably sold for 900 each.

The final cost was the price bid plus 25.8% fees and VAT, so 944 GBP. Perhaps overseas buyers could have saved the VAT.
 

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I do not know whether it is mentioned here before: The German high-end model manufacturer Wunder has made Orient Express coaches (sold out now) and has announced Etoile du Nord and Fleche d'Or coaches in Gauge 1. Prices are a bit higher then J&M however and I question the used color combinations (website only in German language):
https://wunder-modelle.jimdo.com/unsere-produkte/spur-1-waggons/ciwl-orient-express/

https://wunder-modelle.jimdo.com/unsere-produkte/spur-1-waggons/ciwl-edelweiss-gotthard-pullman-express/

Regards
Fred
 

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Discussion Starter · #237 ·
Thank you, Fred.

I don't recall Wunder being mentioned in this thread previously. These models appear to be highly detailed but may not be for the faint at heart. ;)

On Ebay for quite some time has been a set which includes 6 Wunder CIWL cars and a baggage car from Kiss for a mere 29,990 Euro, so about $5,100.00 per car, on average.

Seems the blue and white are for the Edelweiss trains and the all-blue S type are modeled for the Munich to Salzburg run. Prices range from an average of 3,600 Euro per car to a high average of 4,400 Euro per car.
 

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Shelve queens for sure. Imagine running one of those outdoors? But it is nice to know someone is making WL again in gauge one. Of course many German and Swiss modelers run gauge one indoors and electric, so I guess to this niche market it does relate...
 

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Discussion Starter · #239 ·
I keep an eye out looking for J&Ms even when I have no interest in purchasing on my own account.

Yesterday, two New York Central cars were put up on Ebay for $999.00 each. The Observation car, Liberty Hall, sold overnight, but Churchville remains available at the same price.

I find it odd that the Liberty Hall car is painted green and with the New York Central plate on the rear as Liberty Hall was, as far as i know, only a PRR observation car. I do have one in Tuscan red with gold lining.

There is a NYC #383 dining car listed on the German Ebay site in the last day or two for 1,500 €. The dining car is rare, but the price seems a high. ;)
 

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A NYC Liberty Hall is indeed strange. I have lots of J&M documentation (loose catalogs and flyers) and on one sheet the names of the NYC observation cars mentioned are Hudson Valley, Mohawk Valley and Niagara Valley. The price lists do not mentioned car names.

I do not know whether J&M ever made a car named Hudson valley; I ordered one and received Niagara Valley (with 383, Van Twiller and Churchville forming a train):
Regards
Fred
 
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