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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I've been asked to sell a set of J&M French Wagon Lits coaches. I think the current manufacturer is a Dutch company?! I think he sayed a year or so again, he was willing to buy them for refurbishing. Unfortunately I've lost the contact details. Can someone help me out, please?:rolleyes:

In return, I get an Aster BR78 in French livery. However, that one is going to be a complete rebuild I'm afraid. The previous owner went completely amock with modifications, to the point it actually rarely ran. He steamed it up, but I don't recollect it actually moving, sadly. :cry:

Perhaps it even needs repainting. Hard to tell under the insane covers of dried in oil. But in such a case, I will make it Preussian original T18 livery. I have the corresponding electric M盲rklin model to work from. One of the nicest gauge 1 models M盲rklin has ever made. (They usually only cost 5-600 USD on German e-bay. Just saying.;)) I should convert that one to battery operation. Yet another project...:LOL: It's nice to have a sparky to fill the possible gaps between different members firing up at shows, so that there always is something moving on the layout.

The Aster BR78 will also be converted to gas firing. One of our club members actually has the original Aster gas conversion kit just laying around!馃槂
 

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The cars for the Adams Radial Tank were listed as J&M coaches if I remember right, so maybe Accucraft is the current owner or maybe just the distributor? Guess emails will figure that out. Do take lots of pics and post away when you rebuilt the Aster. Should make for a fun project. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you Russel! I've sent him a mail.

Yes, the modifications of the locomotive included adding water tanks. However, it's all done a bit messy. His soldering is often a real horror thing to look at. It will be clearer once I get to study things closer.

Still it will be an interesting project. After all, once upon a time, the locomotive did run, others report, so I figure I'll get it running again.

About the J&M coaches, they are indeed very heavy. And the detailing is surprisingly simple. But at a little distance, they make a nice impression. In fact, as much as one loves detail, they have changed my mind about how much detail there really "has to be", should I build coaches myself in the future. And I would not build them all metal, due to the weight issue.
 

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Hi Puali Yes the J&M coaches are heavy so I put bearings in all the wheels and that helps. Bram's new version all have bearings now.
Re the BR78 / SNCF 232TC open this link to an old post I did on modifying mine to have two side tanks, hand pump and axle pump with a by-pass valve it may interest you.
The link is Modifications to an old Aster
Russell
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Puali Yes the J&M coaches are heavy so I put bearings in all the wheels and that helps. Bram's new version all have bearings now.
Re the BR78 / SNCF 232TC open this link to an old post I did on modifying mine to have two side tanks, hand pump and axle pump with a by-pass valve it may interest you.
The link is Modifications to an old Aster
Russell
I have received an answer from Bram at J&M, and we are discussing what to do. The coaches are in bad state. One window panel is broken, two Wagon Lits emblems are missing, one diafraghm might be damaged, all roofs absolutely need repainting. An there is some questionable lighting wiring, that at least I personally would remove. But the really bothersome thing is, there are surface scratches to the sides. Not though the paint to the metal, so PERHAPS they could be polished and waxed away, like on a car?

In any case, I think you all understand my hesitance to sell these coaches to anyone over the net. There is too much room for dissappointment to occur on the buyer's side. Bram is offering 150Euro/piece, which I can understand. Add the refurbishing work, and then any acceptable profit, and the final offering will be like 5-600 Euro.

I'm really apalled at how the previous owner has managed his locomotives and wagons. ON THE OTHER HAND, I also modify my locomotives and rolling stock. IT IS a BIG PART of the hobby for most of us into live steam.

Like I have systematically repainted all running boards, wooden steps and such on my Maerklin waggons, from plain plastic black, to grained greyish wood. The way the looked 90% of the time in real life.

Straight out of maintanence, they would either be only transparently linseed oiled - or covered in black tar - which is what Maerklin conviniently models. (Modelmaker KM1 has diverted from this. O 02 Schwerin I sadly missed out on the Preussian version... I have not found any second hand either. I have built one without a brakeman's cab, and have a few other wagons, to make a varied turn of the century coal train.)

I also paint doorhandles in brass/gold, and loading floors to look at least somewhat used. Funny case is my sets of log transport cars. They come in pairs from Maerklin, with sawn large members spanning the two wagons. (In real life, they were also used in singular, for shorter logs and such.) Only, once I mount the prototype screw couplings, the load doesn't quite fit any longer. But I could modify the load.

Though what really makes the difference, is that once I have painted the loading floors and swiweling mechanics, the waggos are simply more beatiful without the load! So my reasoning rationale for running them empty is, the waggons had to sometimes be transported back in an empty state?!?馃槃

Mind you, I'm doing some sort of "weathering and color change light". I'm not brave enough to attack the entire surfaces of the wagons. :LOL: Also, that would involve even more work. But results are good. People wonder if I have employed veneer! (TIP! In the "Fantasy" figurine word, they offer several shades of steel paint, which is a real improvement when painting steel parts.)

And currently, Im working at adding coupled / uncouplable brake hoses in between waggons, as I really think it adds to the general look of a train consist. More so than complete weathering.

I think I have found a method at a reasonable cost. I have 80+ wagons, so cost is a consideration. (A bit silly - pulling more than 20 wagons through 2m radius is basically impossible. So I never get to use all my waggons.:cry:)

Also, adding people figurines to my trains is a top priority. And animals...;):) I've been collecting cows, pigs, sheep, horses etc for a decade now, to build an envisioned city supply train around 1910 in Germany. Pigs, wine, fish, hay (remember horses ran the transports also in the cities) and what not, came primarily by train.

I have a phantasy project of adding sound to waggons. Apart from obvious animal sounds, I would like to add buffer pounding, and wheel screatching in curves and switches. Something like "singing" greeting cards.

And I do not leave my locomotives "as per factory" either. There I found a really coward sollution to weathering on one German locomotive BR18 with a bright red frame and wheels. I found a tube of black grease (some additive), that I have applied lightly to the underwork's. It work's great! And could easily be washed away.馃槃

One just has to realize that if selling the stuff might come into question, the market is much more uncertain, smaller, and hence valuation lower. (Or at least very variable. Trust me, I'm an academic economist.)

So from a philosophical view, I have no critisism of my former club member's way to "consume" / enjoy his models. The models are after all more like eating apples and bananas, than doing something to a unique relic revered by others. Even Aster locomotives are not equitable to some unique mideaval hand scripture or a "Mona Lisa".;)

In his case, testing new ideas were more important, than how it apeared visually, or even actually physically worked. I know, it sounds crazy, but I'm also an inventor. (With a patent for vending machines.) 99,9% of ideas don't work that easy, however clearly cut they might seem, when they meet reality. So it is very easy to end up with a collection of not so well functioning "prototypes". That is what he turned his railway models into.

Russel, how did you get the eccentric onto the axle? Is it some kind of split design? I've always wondered how to make that in a reasonable way.:rolleyes: I seem to remember some method of splitting the material, achieve very flat joining surfaces, solder the together, and then turn the stuff in the lathe. Although I think the part described was an eccentric rod, the method could of course apply to an eccentric disc. Then however, you need to hold the two eccenter pieces together against the axle. All in all, it's not a straight forward idea to me. So please enlighten me!:p

I am completely confident I will never realize all my ideas. But then again, dreaming is probably also a big part of (my) hobby?!

We are sort of building an all year round "Christmas landscape" - just without Santa, for most of the time. It's a fairy world of sorts.:):love:
 
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Hi Pauli, I too try to weather my rollingstock too as it improves the look especially for out door running and I think weathering well done actually enhances the value to prospective buyers who do not want to do it. Provided the model is in good condition of course.
To answer your question on the axle pump for the BR78 / 232TC, the drive axle I fitted it to was a 'split axle' that comes apart in two halves (two screws on the axle) leaving the wheels on. Aster cleverly made it this way so I did not need to make split eccentric components. Not many Asters had this two part axle feature but the BR78 does and makes life easier to fit an eccentric and bearing.
I am having some 'split' eccentric components made for two other Asters I have that need axle pumps but don't have axles that separate into two halves. My Aster PLM Pacific is one loco and the other is my Aster 141R and I am reluctant to press the drive wheels off to put the eccentric parts on then re-assemble with accurate wheel quartering so having split eccentrics while difficult to make them are easier to fit and not disturb the wheels on the axle.
Good luck with your BR78
Russell
 

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While not disagreeing that Bram is probably the right guy - isn't Accucraft the current J&M manufacturer?
Bram Hengeveldt is the main European Accucraft importer, dealer and seller for the BENELUX countries, and currently owns the J&M trademark. Passenger coaches currently include the Wagon-lits dining cars - utterly gorgeous - more types on the way, just be rich.
 

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To make a split excentric one must first drill a diagonal hole which when tapped will permit to reassemble the excentric tightly around the axle like a clamp. Then saw the excentric in two and tap oe end of that hole. It is about that easy and will work forever. Also drilling this hole first ensures the proper alignement of the two halves. The rest is pipework. Pauli: Why dont you ask Bram to sell you the parts that you need to fix those cars? With a bit of polish and patience you would be all set.
Those J&M cars are ideal for outdoor use detailed to a point yet quite robust in service. You do need to replace the coupling hooks tho, I build new ones from steel bar and replace the original screw chain on the new ones. The J&M plastic ones bend out and uncouple in service! Useless.
 

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Bram Hengeveldt is the main European Accucraft importer, dealer and seller for the BENELUX countries, and currently owns the J&M trademark. Passenger coaches currently include the Wagon-lits dining cars - utterly gorgeous - more types on the way, just be rich.
His name is Bram Hengeveld and the currently available J&M/Accucraft CIWL car is a sleeping car. A dining car might come available; Bram requested some information on CIWL dining cars from me for this.
Regards
Fred
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Does anyone know what minimum radius is required to run these coaches? I know it looks a bit silly to run them on small radius, but currently the largest radius I have, is 2 metres. I really ought to have choosen 4m, and I may add such an option track. But at the time I didn't foresee me running anything but my "radius tuned" Aster P8 (I haven't tried it out in actual running, but it should negotiate 1m.), or my M盲rklin locomotives, that are built for 1m radius.

I'm contemplating taking on the coaches. 馃槄 And after all, the 232TC locomotive is the French version, so they are meant to compliment each other.

The new versions seem to be better detailed. And lighter construction and ballbearings are a very good improvement. J & M Models | accucraft
 

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Pauli , I have these coaches and on my 3 metre radius curves they did derail sometimes due to "buffer lock" when one of the sprung coach buffers rides over another on the curve due to body overhang and prevents the coach from turning properly. This happens in sudden slow downs or bumps and on one particular track section, that is an 'S' curve, I have to be careful with speed.
I solved the problem by fitting "Kadee" knuckle couplers that keep the coaches a set distance apart unlike the hook couplers that are closer and also a pain to couple up with. My suggestion is even with Kadee couplers anything less than a smooth 3 metre radius track curve is not good for running them.
Russell
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Pauli , I have these coaches and on my 3 metre radius curves they did derail sometimes due to "buffer lock" when one of the sprung coach buffers rides over another on the curve due to body overhang and prevents the coach from turning properly. This happens in sudden slow downs or bumps and on one particular track section, that is an 'S' curve, I have to be careful with speed.
I solved the problem by fitting "Kadee" knuckle couplers that keep the coaches a set distance apart unlike the hook couplers that are closer and also a pain to couple up with. My suggestion is even with Kadee couplers anything less than a smooth 3 metre radius track curve is not good for running them.
Russell
The buffer interlocking problem can be solved by using a temporary coupling rod inbetween the hooks, instead of the screw flexible section. This provides a fixed distance between the coupling hooks. It was used in actual train operations too, at least in Germany. One does not need to alter anything.

They are available readymade in two different lengths in Germany for 1:32. But I will have a go at making them myself for another project of mine. It's just a flat rod with oval holes at the ends. On the underside there should be a swiweling piece of springy sheet metal, that one turns into position to press at the underside of the hooks. This way the coupling rod can't jump off the hooks.

Here is one offering, but there is another maker two, who offers two lengths. 103543 Paar Kupplungsstangen

Here are good photos of home maide rod couplings for 1:32
 

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Does anyone know what minimum radius is required to run these coaches?
The original catalogue by Fulgurex for these coaches mentions a minimum radius of 2 meter. I have never tried 2 meter myself.

Font Electric blue Engineering Parallel Number


I run these without problems on my 3 meter radius layout using the scale couplers (and using a special pair of tweezers made by Fine Models to couple).

Regards
Fred
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
The plot thickens..!馃榿

Stockholm Livesteamers is having a Halloween public run in the new Stockholm Toy Museum on Saturday. It's actually a bomb shelter just a few hundred metres from the Royal Palace.

We bring one of our three available portable layouts. There is a fourth, that unfortunately was donated to a museum, that currently has lost interest in us comming and running. 馃槍 Really sad. In that industrial hub of a town, locomotives were just a part of the industrial output in the early 19th century.

The 20th century lathes and drills then produced there, are still top notch stuff sought by our kind of people. I could sadly not take on one from another member though, since shipping it (and preferrably also the really heavy mill) to my Stockholm archipellago island is simply an insane project.馃槥 I have to make do with my Chinese minilathe and mill.

Seriously, returning to the topic(s), I've done some studying on the radius requirement of the Aster BR78 / 232TC and possible tuning in that respect. It's complicated. I will however resolve the issue. Either by new track, or by tuning. Tuning would however give access to the other 80% of track.

I am really angry at myself, for leaving the standard minimum radius of 3m. I learned this, and planned for this radius already when I saw the Aster Schools class in 1978. I was only 14, but it sparked a lifetime goal. I couldn't possibly afford the kit, so I learned casting, lathe work, design principles, technical drawing skills, steam engine physics and.... ended up an economist.馃槵馃槅

I still have a rather nice two plank wagon I built back then, and sections of 3 METRES RADIUS of curved track. Inkluding a switch! (I will use that one in the future. The wagon will be fitted with the screw couplers I never managed to successfully make.)

How come I turned "radius dumb" as a grown up?!? Space was never an issue. (Property is generally cheap in Sweden.) The fault is M盲rklin, that offered live steam locomotives for 1m radius. And thus led me down the "pig(tail)" radius belief, as the German gauge1 people call it. ("Schweineradius")

Since my layout needs rebuilding due to a snow storm hitting it badly, I really ought to put some 4-5m radius running option into it.

But on public shows, we only rarely use the portable layout with "Aster" friendly 3-4m radius. The most frequently used layout, has only 2,4m radius. But my radius tuned Aster P8/BR38 runns very well on that.

Visiting people's home layouts though, I have to bring my M盲rklin BR89 (Preussian T3) to negotiate the all to often 60cm radius curves and switches. And so I have kept a local passenger train consist with standard, in my mind hideously looking, claw couplers for this purpose. All other rolling stock have been fitted with prototypical screw couplings.

This is the reason I have turned an interest onto coupling bars! I just hate anything but screw couplings.馃槃 Though, if I ventured British style stuff, three link would be rather nice!馃槈

I don't knowhow successfull runs I will make this Saturday and Sunday. I will be using my M盲rklin BR89. Last time it performed rather poorly. But the ground track then, was absolutely horrable. It works (somewhat) reasonable for narrow gauge stuff, but it's a killer for 1:32.

Still, it will be a nice weekend, with lot's of steam oil - and I'm pretty confident, one coal burner!馃槂
 
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Paulus: The radius issue is essential to understand, and is one of the advantages of outdoor railroads : You are not hindered by the limitation of your interior space available for modeling. I will give you an example: My former layout in Valmondois (N - W Paris suburb) had one 3 meter 30 curve (I had chosen 3 meter 30 because I knew that 3 meter was the limit for all Asters, so giving another foot gave some play... Also 3 meter 30 corresponds to 100 scale meters in 1/32 and most locomotives are designed to negociate that radius or thereabouts at reduced speed in engine terminals).

MY JVR built NORD Atlantic used to have difficulty running the consist of the Nord Express: IE one WL baggage, two "couplages" of pullmans (1 pullman with kitchen + one pullman without) and another WL baggage, it would stall on the short 1% grade near the depot on a 4 meter 50 radius. The 3meter 30 radius slowed it down and the grade killed it)

On my new layout here in Ardeche, where more space was available I did 6 meter 50 radius in one end and 7 meter radius on the other end of the layout with no grades and the cinderblock base or viaducts on a concrete foundation. Yes it cost me an arm, but :
The engine now hauls that consist in good stride, realising at last, a dream which JVR wanted to acheive but never did (although he rebuilt some of his pullmans with plywood floor to lighten them!) And any train looks much more realistic on these curves. Mind you this apparently extravagant radius corresponds to a little over 200 meters radius, a radius only used on difficult mountainous terrain in reality. All of this was largely discussed in the Model Railroader back in the sixties when that magazine was a very good read.
Plant Botany Grass Groundcover Road surface

I also run a push pull train in live steam using the Nord De caso mikado tank used on Nord suburban trains in push pull service from 1933 to 1970, the last one serving my former home town: Valmondois. This works very well on those curves. See SNCF 141 TC and push Pull train on You tube.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
When I build my new layout, I'm planning to add one path with a minimum radius of 3m, but if possible, as big a radius I can. However I have lots of M盲rklin 1m radus track and 13 switches. I also have two 2,3m switches, and a double cross switch - that one though, I'm not sure I can get into working order. It was made by Kesselbauer the old/father, and he was not known for great quality. And it was built to be operated by "memory metal" instead of servos. A lot of work to hopefully get to work. Then I have a circle of 2m radius, that my Aster P8 happily runs on. Finally a 3m radius switch I built when I was 14. At least all straight track is of course unproblematic.馃槃

I'm hardly going to not use all of this track material. I'll just have to accept that not all locomotives and rolling material can run everywhere on the layout.

I will not use the 60cm radius curved track I also have. At least that's not part of my plans. Even if my M盲rklin BR89/T3 negotiates it. I also have an electric T3, and some others that negotiate 60cm radius, that might be converted to battery operation. Main reason for not allowing 60cm radius at all, is because buffers are guaranteed to interlock as I prefer to run prototypical screw couplers. Though if I keep some wagons with claw couplers, perhaps some switching/storage track could be 60cm radius.

Also J&M Coatches, Preussian 3 axle passenger cars, and then all two axle wagons, all have different requirements for radiuses.

It's going to be a mess... :LOL: It might just be as well that no other members of Stockholm Livesteamers can visit me anyway, because the run narrow gauge locomotives, as at least all M盲rklin track won't allow deep whel flanges. The problem is that the"rail spikes" have been modelled to high. It's really stupid, because PECO track allows deep wheel flanges, although they use code 200, and M盲rklin uses code 215. (As does the rest of my track.)
 
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