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Discussion Starter #1
Assume you have a throttle for all your engines and it has basically 10 steps and "stop". If you set the throttle to step "9" what speed you expect the locomotive to go:

That last choice is indicative that you expect all your locos to be able to run at the exact same speed, regardless of what the prototype was able to do... i.e.: your Erie Triplex should be able to run as fast as your Burlington Zepher or ol' no 999 or the mag lev train in Europe.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Posted By Jerry Barnes on 09/13/2008 7:41 PM
I just tend to like to go fast, just a big kid!


So you'd vote for the third option?
 

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Posted By calenelson on 09/13/2008 8:04 PM
I dig Prototypical Speeds...S...L...O....W....

I chose #2



So do I, but option #2 isn't necessarily slow. And what's with option #3? These choices are just about as twisted as the thread that started this. Can't we introduce some calculus and thermal dynamics into the mix just to make it interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Posted By Del Tapparo on 09/13/2008 9:05 PM
Posted By calenelson on 09/13/2008 8:04 PM
I dig Prototypical Speeds...S...L...O....W....

I chose #2



So do I, but option #2 isn't necessarily slow. And what's with option #3? These choices are just about as twisted as the thread that started this. Can't we introduce some calculus and thermal dynamics into the mix just to make it interesting.




Well, so far it looks like everyone wants trains to run at prototypical speeds, except Jerry who either didn't vote or hit the wrong button.

I have to express that I don't feel the choices are "twisted". There were folk that expressed that they don't care about prototypical speeds and like Jerry, just want them to run fast. Of course there are Garden Train Locomotives for which there never were prototypes or, at least, not given the scenario they represent... i.e.: Mickey and Goofy pumping a hand car or that LG B "Air car" with the big propeller on the back.

I suppose if you want calculus and thermodynamics, then we could discuss (and/or just cuss) whether you can run your trains so fast that if you had a cornfield meet, you might create a black hole.

My brother and I used to run our O-27 Lionel trains as fast as we could into each other and we really enjoyed it... that is, until one of them broke so badly that we only had one engine that would run... then we realized the stupidity of exceeding the design strength of the cast loco bodies.

BUT, I am serious in finding some count of what people like and want.

If you don't care about prototypical speeds then you have just as much fun as anyone that strives to run a railroad in their backyard.

If the manufacturer limits the upper speed of a loco they run the risk of losing sales to those that want to just run fast... but for those that want to run at prototypical speeds the power of the locomotive at the reduced voltage and current to obtain the prototypical speed limits the power of the locomotive to pull a prototypical load and the manufacturer risks losing sales to that segment of the community.

This poll is simply to find how many MLS readers want to run all locos at the same speed (so the model of the SW1200 runs as fast as the model of the Bullet Train) or if the loco should handle closely to the way the prototypical engine did.

So far, it looks like prototype speeds is important to those that are responding.
 

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Your questions are confusiing.

Maybe i want to run my loco at 100 percent of the real prototype engines speed.

Maybe I want to run my loco at 50 percent of thre real prototype engines speed.

Which of your choices do I choose?

I would like to be able to run my locos at the prototype speed. I have shays, connies and annies and a couple porters. They should run at realistic speeds, each based on what the real engine could do.

Eliminate the three choices or change them to make them more meaningful and you will get better responses.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Posted By jbwilcox on 09/13/2008 10:30 PM
Your questions are confusiing.

Maybe i want to run my loco at 100 percent of the real prototype engines speed.

Maybe I want to run my loco at 50 percent of thre real prototype engines speed.

Which of your choices do I choose?

I would like to be able to run my locos at the prototype speed. I have shays, connies and annies and a couple porters. They should run at realistic speeds, each based on what the real engine could do.

Eliminate the three choices or change them to make them more meaningful and you will get better responses.

John



You've almost got it!

If your engine is a slow freight dragger where the prototype engine had a max speed of, say, 30 MPH and you set the throttle to the roof it will only go about 30 MPH, so on the model you set the throttle to max (100%) and it runs at a scale 30 MPH, set it to 50% and it runs at a scale 15 MPH. Likewise if your model is of a Bullet Train with a max speed of 200 MPH, if you set the throttle to max the scale train will run at a scale 200 MPH, and at 50% it will run at a scale 100 MPH.

As opposed to those that want to run the freight dragger at a scale 200 MPH, even if the prototype would fly apart if it tried.

You, as I understand your comment, would then choose option 2... make the train run at 90% of the prototypes max speed when the toy throttle is at 90% of its max setting.

Of course, some of us would kind'a like to have a throttle that has a sort of booster setting to it whereby we could run the big lumbering coal train at maybe 110% or even maybe 150% or, well... okay make it a Coal Bullet Train at 500%... "Scotty, warp speed!... She canna take much more, Captin!"

The point is, should the manufacturers make the model of the Erie Triplex to run as fast as the model of the Japanese Bullet Train?
 

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Actually John if you read the thread closely, it's not so confusing at all...

Think "up to" the value given for each choice...

Choice #1 = Do you want to play 'slot-trains'?? (90% of light speed)

Choice #2 = Do you want each of your individual engines to run at approxiamtely 90% of their individual prototypical speed? (is any body going to quibble about 10% of the top end value?)

Choice #3 = Do you want each of your locomotives to run the 1/4 mile at the same elapsed time?? (bracket racing, if you will)

Sorta easy to determine. Yes? No??
 

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Streamliner...... just under max warp speed

Freight train......15 % of warp speed.

I run my streamliner fast and my freight trains slower
 

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None of the above is my answer.
I feel that going 'fast' will make the trains wear out faster and keep maint costs high.
 
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seemingly i did not understand the questions.
i checked #1 because i want to run the trains MY speed.
(my speed being normally slow enough, that visitors can distinguish, if a passenger in the train is reading the bible or the playboy)
 

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Choice 3.
LGB understood this.
Since most buyers will run on DC for at least a while, all locos should have identical gear ratios and power curves.

On Analog, who knows what two locos a user might want to couple together to get a train up a grade. He might use a little diesel switcher as a helper for a Mogul.
They all need the same gear ratio and speed range.

Once someone converts to DCC or battery/RC they can choose an appropriate battery or appropriate CV settings to set the maximums and minimums or even a power curve to satisfy their needs.

Most DCC users insist on "speed matching" their locos. This is a process of configuring decoders so that different brands and models of locos all travel at the exact same speed for a given speed step. They may make the locos match speeds exactly from 1% to 80% of the throttle setting. Then they can use the last 20% of the speed curve to set the maximum speed to match the prototype. This way, they can MU any two locos together and they play nice together as long as the operator stays below 80% on their throttle. Mikados, and other freight locos would then have a lower top speed than Pacific's and other passenger locos.

This speed matching even extends to switchers. A switcher can be speed matched to a road engine. Then you can change to switching mode, (turn on F6 with the switching mode CV enabled), and set the maximum prototypical speed for the switcher.
Now you have a switcher that normally uses the full range of the throttle to provide fine slow speed control and a prototypical speed for the switcher, but, by turning of F6, you can press it into service as a helper at the rear of a train and it will not fight the road engines, push cars to the outside or string them on curves. This works great where two users can coordinate their speeds to the same numbers displayed on their throttles or where the locos are consisted.

All my LGB locos were easy to set up using this method. Each loco has at top speed appropriate to their prototype yet can be MU'd together. All speed curves are the same up to 80%. Doing the same thing with other brands can become a nightmare. There are even complicated computer programs to help. Matching the speed curve of a Bachmann Kay so that it can be MU'd with Bachmann Annie requires running each loco through three detection blocs at least 28 times. Then the procedure has to be repeated to verify it and fine tune it. Even then, the power curves of the locos do not match. While speed matching will result in both locos running at the same speed with a light load, they won't as you add more cars to both locos. Back EMF helps in this situation, but, if the motors are significantly different, even that requires a lot of tweaking to even get them close.

So, I would say, All the locos should run at the same speed for a given voltage on DC. Then, the advanced user can install Battery/RC or DCC and alter the speed range to suit the way they want to run their trains. I can see where there should be rreasonable exceptions, The Fortuna flyer, ACL and Shay come to mind.
 

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Other guys at the garden are always asking if I can speed up a little.
 

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None of the above? If I TRIED to use warp 9 they'd just sail off the table just like my old TYCO HO stuff used to, except the crash would be louder and much more spendy. performance at 2, 3 or 4 would be MUCH more useful

BTW since I mostly run a bashed LGB 2017 there AIN'T no stinkin "prototype"...OTOH the fact that with the matching power tender it can pull FAR more than any "real" 0-4-0 comes in rather handy if I want to pull 6-7 cars instead of 4
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The question was NOT "Do you like to run fast?"!!!!!

It is, rather, if you set the throttle in your hand (or in the cab, or on the floor, or where ever you have it located) at a certain point, how fast do you expect the train to go relative to your other trains. It is all RELATIVE to YOUR throttle and your locomotives. I happened to have used a point of Ninety Percent. ALL three poll selections could have 10% or 50% or any other throttle position substituted and your answer should not change.

The difference between selection 1 and 3 is that in 3 you expect all locomotive to be identical (so you can double-head your Shay on the Bullet train) and in 1 you do not, but neither do you expect them to be prototypical.
 
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