[GN_Rocky]

Yes, I'm still alive and da Whirly ain't got me yet
Question to all. I'm looking to add some rail service to my WWII dio.s .
I model 1/18th scale so I'll need to find or scratch build some 1/20th or 1/18th Euro scale track and a few freight cars that are correct to use for Europe in the 1940s. A few boxcars and flat cars and maybe if I'm real crafty, a steamer to pull them. But I'll need to know what the spacing is between the rails(inches or mm in scale) . I'm not sure if the Euro track is a standard or narrow gauge. Anyone got any info. for me ??? BTW, a 1/19th scale tank foes NOT fit on a 1/29th flatcar /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif Thanks, Rocky

 

[East Broad Top]

In 1:19, (16mm scale) O gauge track works out to 2', which is right close to 600mm, which is rather common for narrow gauge trains on that side of the pond. Plenty of stuff to choose from, I would think. Peco makes a line of track for 16mm scale, which would suit your needs quite well. I'm not sure about WWII, but during WWI, most all of the "trench" railways were 600mm. Accucraft just released a very nice "War Department" Baldwin 4-6-0 that was built specifically for those railways.

Later,

K

 

[ralphbrades]

Robert,

The standard gauge locomotives and rolling stock that you are looking for is GAUGE FOUR... This has been extinct for several decades, (yes I did think very heavily about it!!!), the scale is 19.2 : 1 -as near as damn it 16mm to the foot. Any of the 16mm stockists here in the UK are suitable hunting grounds. 75mm would be a good bet for std gauge track.

You could try the "F" scale std gauge track which might be easier?

regards

ralph

 

[parkdesigner]

Accucraft has a line of 1/19 stuff under the "BMS" line (Like the US' AMS line in the states). Engines, cars, etc come with 45mm wheel sets installed, but all with an extra set of wheels to swap out if you want to model the 2' stuff. This includes lots of Welsh stuff - 4 wheel vans, wagons, as well as some new bogie coaches. For around $200-$300 USD you can get the BMS starter set which has an outside framed shuntter, single plank wagon, and van (I think). If you swap out the wheel sets on them, you'll need to find track as Kevin states - PECO has a nice (but costly) selection. They have points, and even a cute little turntable if you want to do point to point ops.

Now, if you want "bigger" stuff/smaller scale - you can find 1:20 BMS stuff as well. The Isle of Man rolling stock was all 3', thus the 45mm wheel sets and track we use for our "G" stuff is correct and in scale. There are now a few IoM steamers, and cars coming out from Accucraft - and Victor's in the UK is bringing out a nice ugly shuntter as well.

I would suggest going to the Yahoo groups and joining the 16mm ones (there are at least 3 that I know of - all very active). Also - I'd haunt the gscalemad forum... though be warned there are one or two idiots that must love the sound of their own voice as you'll notice you will have to weed through the same damn posts (verbatim) on that board as you will here. Seems at least one MLS person just HAS to repost all he does here, there (and several other boards as well!). So you've been warned - you'll see what looks like just the same info, but dig deeper - good stuff there too.

 

[tacfoley]

Posted By GN_Rocky on 08/21/2008 10:14 AM
Yes, I'm still alive and da Whirly ain't got me yet " border=0>
Question to all. I'm looking to add some rail service to my WWII dio.s .
I model 1/18th scale so I'll need to find or scratch build some 1/20th or 1/18th Euro scale track and a few freight cars that are correct to use for Europe in the 1940s. A few boxcars and flat cars and maybe if I'm real crafty, a steamer to pull them. But I'll need to know what the spacing is between the rails(inches or mm in scale) . I'm not sure if the Euro track is a standard or narrow gauge. Anyone got any info. for me ??? BTW, a 1/19th scale tank foes NOT fit on a 1/29th flatcar /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/ermm.gif" border=0> Thanks, Rocky




Dear Mr GN_Rocky - please note that much of the information that you have so far been given by all but my old pal Ralph Brades may be somewhat misleading, as the 16mm movement was founded here in UK to futher the aims and aspirations of British two-foot narrow gauge - none of which, as far as I am aware - ever carried out transportation of armoured vehicles such as tanks. They were too busy working in quarries and coal mines.

More to the point, two-foot gauge narrow gauge is almost entirely confined to Wales, and the locos are tiny by comparison with almost anything else - excepting the exceptional NG/G16 Garratts that were designed to run in South Africa anyhow.

European narrow gauge, for the most part, is either 760mm [that's 2ft 6in] or meter gauge - there are, of course, numerous others, but these two gauges predominate. Needless to say, the majority of modelling in meter gauge is by LGB, who make their meter gauge models in the scale of 1/22.5, so that the 45mm track gauge is correct.

Please note also that a real PANTHER tank filled the standard-gauge flat car side-to-side - that's just about 9ft 3in.

Standard gauge in UK and Europe is the same as the USA - 4ft 8.5in. The Bern loading gauge is only slightly smaller than the main US loading gauge.

Hope this helps.

tac

 

[Fritz]

European narrow gauge, for the most part, is either 760mm [that's 2ft 6in] or meter gauge

760mm narrow gauge was only used in Austria and in the Ex-Austrian Imperial countries like Hungary, Romänia, parts of Yugoslavia and Italy.
750mm gauge was much more wide spread, today some of Saxonys lines and the Ruegen Bahn still run on 750mm rails.
LGB never built too many models in 1 : 22,5. Many, like their Stainz oder Meyer loco are closer to 1 : 18/19. A good example for a 1 : 19 loco was one of their latest releases, before they closed. The Heeresfeld HF 130 c from which many were built by various makers for the German Army during WW 2. They had adjustable wheels for gauges from 600 -900 mm. There were plans fpr metre gauge HF 130s, but none were ever built.

The model is slightly too wide, since they used one of their standard 45mm motor bricks in it.
Have Fun
Fritz / Juergen

 

[tacfoley]

My point is that NONE of these European narrow gauge lines were used to transport tanks.

Please prove me wrong by showing me a photograph of a Tiger 1, Panther, PzKwI/II/II or IV, or any other German/Italian/Czech/Polish/French/Hungarian/Russian armoured fighting vehicle loaded onto a narrow gauge flat car.

ANY narrow-gauge flat-car.

As for what scale LGB models actually turn out to be when you take a [very flexible] measuring rule to them, their declared gauge for their European stock was 1:22.5 to 'match' the 45mm track gauge.

TIA

tac

 

[GN_Rocky]

Please excuse my delay in responding Tac,
No way will my 1/18th panthers or Tiger Is fit on ANY G scale flatcar. The width of the Panther (outside of track to outside of the other track) is 7 inches, the Tiger I's width is 7.5 inches. A standard G gauge flatcar is 4 inches. I would thing an NG G scale flatcar with is around 5 to 5.5 inches. Niether of these will work /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/sad.gif I may have to do some research into Euro track gauge in the 1940s. I thought I'd try here first. Sorry for the trouble. Rocky

 

[ralphbrades]

Robert,

Let me save you a little "digging" and point you in a few directions...

This would have been the typical locomotive that would have worked on Axis rails:
http://www.argyleloco.com.au/a_br52.htm

This is a section on "Loading Gauges"
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/loadgauge/loadgauge.htm

regards

ralph

 

[Fritz]

Hi,

I suppose, a 40 or 50 tons tank would have been much too heavy for the light track used by narrow gauge railroads. The existing narrow gauge lines in Europe were of little strategic use, since they were very short, sometimes only a few Kilometers.

Looking at historic pictures, the temporary 8German) feldbahn lines of WW 2 transported mainly troops, food and ammunition. Have a picture here, with a field kitchen and 4 horses loaded on 600m wagons.
Some Feldbahn units had rolling repairshops for tanks and lorries. The V 2 missiles were pulled out of their shelter to the launching ramp by Jung diesel locos on 600mm rail.

I am not much in military railways, but I´ve seen pictures of Brit. WW1 2-feet wagons loaded with artillery. The bogie flatcars had mounted ramps to the lower sides where the wheels of the cannons could rest and to keep the point of gravity low.

The only piece of ex-military equipment on my model railroad is a Sovjet Rolls Royce armoured car from 1917:

It was used by the local tax collector for a few years butis on its way to the local museum now.

Have Fun

Fritz / Juergen

 

[tacfoley]

Rocky - I just may have totally misunderstood the meaning of your post, but track gauges in Europe are the same now as they were in WW2, and WW1 for that matter.

Apart from Finland, the rest of Europe that was actively engaged in WW2 used/uses the exact same class 1 rail gauge as the USA and Canada - 4ft 8.5in.

As Ralph has advised you to look at a couple of sites, please do so and then come back to us so we can help you do what you want to do.

Be warned - your 1/18th scale model trains will have to be scratch-built, and I mean totally scratch-built - there is nothing out there to get you started, not even track. A 1/18th scale Br52 or 42 kriegslok will be really something to see, that's for sure.

Remember that narrow gauge in mainland Europe [be it 500mm, 600mm, 750mm, 760mm or metre gauge], for the most part, is positively minute compared to any US Class 1 track system, as Fritz notes in the example of his flat-car.

tac

 

[ralphbrades]

Robert,

I actually have all the wheel profiles and track details for Gauge 4 -should you need them... I have a store house of old reference books with "period" information -including how to make track from old umbrella spines, (would I lie to you???) Your fundamental problem is going to one of sourcing parts. I would advise you to go for 16mm scale (19.1:1) rather than the correct scale of 19.2:1.

Brandbright and Cambrian Models both stock parts that could be modifed with a knife to be what you are looking for. The Gauge 3 Society and the National 2 and Half inch Gauge Society plus a few other places would be sources for wheels (cut the axle in half and fit a spacer tube). The trackwork is going to be very different to what you are used to -white metal chairs and wood sleepers. The technique for hitting a chair correctly onto the rail requires some practice -a bag of frozen peas is faster than anything else to ease the pain in your thumb!!!!

In the "Large Scale Events" forum I have posted a thread about the Gauge 3 get together. Have a look at the shots there. The locomotive you are going to have to build will be LARGER than those there.

regards

ralph

 

[tacfoley]

In 1/19th scale the Br42 is 48 inches long.

Even in the usual military modelling scale of 1/35th it is 35 inches long and five inches wide.

The suitable schwerlastwagen - tank transporter flat car - would be just over 26 inches long and 8.8 inches wide.

tac