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Simply , I guess is a person who has "G" gauge trains out doors.
I consider myself a largescale outdoor modeler tho many would disagree.

If you want to encourage a garden railroader in any shape or form of the hobby then we must keep our definition broad.
You have
Large scale collectors,
Live steamers
Indoor largescale.
detailed models of largescale.
those who play with toy trains in largescale.
And those intersted in the hobby and enjoy it w/ or w/o trains.

I gravetate to those who "model" 1:29th modern longer ,bigger trains.
I "feel" out of place with shays all around me but I love to see them running on my RR through the scence that I creat.
go figure.
So garden Railways has to try to meet all of the above needs. Go figure....
Thats all I have to say about that!!!
 

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I agree Marty. The definition must be very broad and encompass many different aspects of your hobby. I, like you, tend to swing more towards modern diesels in 1:29, but I'm not a stickler. If it looks good, I'll run it. Down the road, as my line develops, I may become more detail oriented. But for now I'm just happy to have trains in the backtyard.

But goodness knows, I really enjoy visiting other railroad in my club and seeing the various incarnation that others have done from modern mainline operations to shortline steam. It's all fun.

Let's not limit ourselves with too "tight" of a definition.
 

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Posted By NTCGRR on 09/01/2008 12:43 PM

Simply , I guess is a person who has "G" gauge trains out doors. I consider myself a largescale outdoor modeler tho many would disagree. If you want to encourage a garden railroader in any shape or form of the hobby then we must keep our definition broad. You have Large Scale collectors, Live steamers Indoor large scale. detailed models of large scale. those who play with toy trains in large scale. I gravitate to those who "model" 1:29th modern longer, bigger trains. I "feel" out of place with shays all around me but I love to see them running on my RR through the scence that I create. go figure. So garden Railways has to try to meet all of the above needs. Go figure.... That's all I have to say about that!!!


I really like your broad definition. The only problem I have had with the Garden Railways mag is that by implication one has to be a gardener and have an integrated garden as part of their outdoor layout to qualify. Some of us don't fit very neatly into that category.


I highlighted and emphasized that one statement of yours because that defines me as well. Good post. 
 

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Sorry -But I really have to take you to task Marty....

I don't have a single item of "G" gauge -nor do most of my fellow Association members(!)

regards

ralph
 

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I think a Garden Railroader, is one that runs though a garden.
A outdoor railroader, is one that tries to make his layout look as real a possible.
 

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Marty,

Looks to me like a garden railroader is 1 who has a railroad in a garden setting!! This I beleive came from across the pond.. But we have added to the difinition & added some more to where we are @ your difinition of a garden railroader.. & I think Dave is right!!

BulletBob
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ralph
I have no idea what that means.
So I can add to my list and say those interested in or enjoy it.

BTY
We need to file out our prfiles because I was going to reply to Mr 49er(Ron) but your name slipped out of my brain. And its not in your file.
Any way I understand what your saying. When I started getting in GRYs and with the artical is after I realized what they was looking for and focused a section or part of my RR to meet their desires.
Same with the photo contest.
The magizine has to have a set of guide lines to work with .
I spent one evening for almost an hour going through your long thread on your RR. Very interesting.
I usually avoid long threads because of time.
Like right now I came in to cool off after working on the new line.
post a photo, then head out.
10 to 15 mins at the most.

PS Eric O. who writes stuff for GRYs is a largescale modeler. He does not call himself a garden RRer. He comes here and has no idea how to get his hands dirty. I give him a shovel and he askes where is the on/off switch?
He has very little track time. and because of work and space may never have a layout. But he loves the hobby of M RRing.
 

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If you have a garden railroad, that is to say one that is part of a garden, then someone - if not you - has to be the gardener. If not the ROW would get quickly overgrown and hidden behind plants. One advantage of a well planned, and well kept, garden is that it allows the smaller railroad to look larger than it is and also adds considerable interest to viewers. And it isn't just about plants and bushes: rocks, walls, tunnels and other items of interest are all part and parcel of it.
As I see it a railroad that is not integral with the garden is in fact an outdoor railroad. Nothing wrong with that of course, some of the great, large railroads that I see vids and pics of, particularly in the States, fall into this category.
Often the garden i.e. horticultural side of garden railroading is done by the lady of the house: that is the case here at my home. It has the benefit of being something that we are both involved with but without it becoming competitive and it is this sensible division of railroading and horticulture which can help to avoid territorial disputes.
In the couple of years I have been reading GR it has been very noticeable how many husband/wife teams have created beautiful and interesting railroads giving themselves and visitors tremendous satisfaction. Lets face it, siting the wrong plants, in the wrong places, can be quite detrimental to an outdoor railroad.

I like the horticultural parts of GR. /DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/satisfied.gif
 

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I think this is one of those things where beauty (the "true definition") lies in the eyes of the beholder. I'm a 4-year newcomer to large scale/garden ry, but have been a railroader since as a tyke I watched my older brother and Dad attempt to build a "scale" O-gauge railroad in our basement in Cairo Ill in 1938. We moved to New Orleans and helped Frank Ellison build and operate his famous 0-Gauge DElta Lines. They worked brass and changed the drivers on old Lionel locomotives and hand built cars to go with them out of cardboard and wood. They had to build everything by hand; there were no kits to bash. What they built without today's myriad of dedicated manufacturers would be greeted currently with barely concealed laughter at best and, at worst, sneers.

I captured my interest in "model RR'ing" from them and have built or helped build 7 or 8 pikes covering O, HO, N, and NN3 gauges. At 76 now, I find this large scale/garden ry stuff easy to handle with my eyesight and, more importantly, I've gotten a tremendous kick out of the actual real engineering required to build such a pike in my environment which is at 9,000 feet in a remote area of the Colo Rocky Mtns. Let me tell you that there are not many plants that survive 40 degrees below zero here, nor take easily to this rocky, rocky ground. (Any digging has to be done with pick...shovels don't work!) I love what I'm doing and building and I find that my little grandkids love to run the trains themselves. It gives us something special to share. And that's not all bad.

Let me get to my point: I watched men try to build "scale" models in the 30's and 40's; watched John Allen's HO Gorre & Daphetid bring a sense of what might be accomplished by a serious modeler to the hobby, then watched the rivet counters take a desire to model to extremes. The Model RR magazine in recent years to my mind may have scared off as many potential railroaders as it attracted by its emphasis on rigid prototypical adherence in construction and operation rather than just having fun doing the part of the hobby you enjoy the most. Man, I was alive when men --not boys-- delighted when what they constructed actually worked! Surely, not everyone is a great modeler. Nor a gardener. Nor wants to operate like a real railroad. But...! But....! Let's keep whatever we want to call the hobby... (hobby, isn't it. NOt a life or death matter of theology???)...the hobby open to everyone. Who are we to judge that one man's beauty really isn't even pretty? It seems to me that the wider we toss the loop, the more people we attract in and inclusion it seems to me is a lot better than ex-clusion.

So, decidedly, I vote--if I even get a vote--in favor of calling it whatever we want so long as it includes anyone who wants to take on the great pleasure and the many frustrations of dealing with the outdoors with a hobby that originally started indoors (excluding the prototypes). The whole hobby started with little boys playing with tinplate trains who grew up excited about them.....and then they progressed to build the hobby as it is today. It's hard for me to believe what has happened in the 70 years since that basement in Cairo, Ill.

And forgive me if my passion is different from yours! You guys on this forum are the best I've ever run into anywhere in RR'ing.
 

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For a broad definition I would state priority rather than degree of modeling/gardening. In the broadest terms a garden railroader is one that emphasizes the garden with the railroad as part of it. An outdoor railroader on the other hand emphasizes the railroad with the garden, if any, subordinate regardless of level of expertise or adherence to prototype.
 

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To me, a "garden railroader" is one who runs their trains through a garden, or at least has a part in it (could be the gardener or the engineer or ?). Scale and gauge are irrevelent and there are pleny of nice examples in 0 and gauge 3. For that matter, even the Casey Jones Junior ride at Dizzyland is a garden railroad, albeit 2' gauge with human riders and 1" scale structures, but a beautiful, well manicured garden none the less.

If you want to run your trains outdoors through the weeds, but you consider the weeds to be your garden (or garden in progress), I guess that goes to. Similarly, a garden railroad need not be outside and the indoor setup at the Bellagio would certainly be called a garden railroad. It could even be argued that someone with a "rock garden" is also a garden railroader, though interesting enough, the DVD from the NGRS in Phoenix (featuring lots of rock garden railroads) is called "Backyard Railroads" rather than garden railroads. ;)
 

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Posted By Trains on 09/01/2008 1:26 PM

I think a Garden Railroader, is one that runs though a garden. A outdoor railroader, is one that tries to make his layout look as real a possible.


That second definition more closely fits my layout. With the kind of growing season we have up here, a true garden railroad of any substance is almost out of the question.  I have never seen a non-garden railroad in Garden Railroad Magazine, of course. 
 

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Posted By SlateCreek on 09/01/2008 3:54 PM

I haven't got the outdoors or the garden ... but I do have the large trains. Most of the stuff is designed for outdoor use and used indooors.... But then, I'm odd in most of my approach to this! Matthew (OV) http://slatecreekrailway.blogspot.com


Yes, but as you say right in your referenced website: "The Slate Creek Railway is my 1:20.3 scale model railroad which has thus far been confined to the basement, but the backyard is just a window away!"

Mine also started as an indoor layout. At the time I had no plans for running it outdoors. Funny how things change over time. 
 

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Posted By blackburn49 on 09/01/2008 1:01 PM
Posted By NTCGRR on 09/01/2008 12:43 PM

Simply , I guess is a person who has "G" gauge trains out doors. I consider myself a largescale outdoor modeler tho many would disagree. If you want to encourage a garden railroader in any shape or form of the hobby then we must keep our definition broad. You have Large Scale collectors, Live steamers Indoor large scale. detailed models of large scale. those who play with toy trains in large scale. I gravitate to those who "model" 1:29th modern longer, bigger trains. I "feel" out of place with shays all around me but I love to see them running on my RR through the scence that I create. go figure. So garden Railways has to try to meet all of the above needs. Go figure.... That's all I have to say about that!!!


I really like your broad definition. The only problem I have had with the Garden Railways mag is that by implication one has to be a gardener and have an integrated garden as part of their outdoor layout to qualify. Some of us don't fit very neatly into that category.


I highlighted and emphasized that one statement of yours because that defines me as well. Good post. 




I suppose because, growing up in the Ozarks makes me think my opinion is as good as the next, I'm going to insert my nickel's worth.

I came within one issue--this one--of deciding to drop GR. First, I have no RR, but it'll be indoor when I get the work done to the house. I hate gardening though I used to farm. I disliked diesels until I realized they could be a source of small steam critter motor mechanisms. I detest the modern. I don't appreciate rivet counters but I recognize they provide a standard for guidelines and a benchmark to aim for.

GR tends to be heavy on all the above 'negatives'. Especially the exotic plants section. (My definition of an exotic plant: Anything not found in a vegetable garden.) What do I like? Imagination, skill in building, innovation and the 'fun' in doing so of the hobby. The 'NKP' bit turns me off. Taken seriously, it'd put a lot of logging and mining layouts out in the cold. This month's GR issue had an article on converting a New Brite boxcar. It mentioned the guy who built it wanted a car for his 'one cylinder Shay'. I didn't even know Shays had one cylinder. I hope they continue with 'Beginner' articles along those lines. That's why I'm going to re-up. The other reason is the photoelectric 'engine'. The skill needed to put something like that together interests me. But where does one find parts these days? Spoked drivers, spoked car wheels, gears, sprockets, roller chain? Or even scale log chain? Not in very many model RR supply houses. I've never seen an article on simple electronic circuits in GR. Why? One has to go outside the hobby supply world to find most of that stuff. But I've seen two on 'how to take good photos'. I thought that's what the photo hobby magazines covered.

I would never jeer at the 30's era home-RR builders. I respect 'em to the core, because they worked with what they had. Today, that kind of activity seems to be regarded as not quite respectable. Today, like it or not, the Big Plastic card rules. (It did back then too, we just don't see it emphasized much--those layouts are in the Collector's sites).

One poster on this thread noted how he watched his dad and brother put up a 'pike' in the 30s. Then seemed forced to add that it wouldn't stack up today. I suggest that would depend upon whether a scratchbuilder or someone whose only tool is a Plastic Card was looking at it.

I've been reading the huge stack of MR's RMer, NMRA Bulletins, old books on trains that I got at an auction. Even in the 70s, scratchbuilding seems to have been falling out of favor in the mags.

MR has a 'Teenagers Corner'. Why don't they encourage the teens to join the men and thus perhaps learn to be men? And the men need to provide what guidance is wanted, instead of what they think is wanted. Or know should be wanted. Let the kids learn by doing alongside the adults.

I've gone to one 'Steam Up' or train show here in St.L. I'll never go to another. The civility, interest in answering questions, or even selling their wares of the people behind the tables pretty much mimics the business attitude of banks and cathouses.

In most human activity, 'exclusion' is the operative norm. Even in this hobby, as has already been suffiently pointed out by others. The only cure for it is courtesy and a broader perspective than one's own pet interests.

Les W.
 

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Ron,

Touche! However, I think I will take my erstwhile brother's advice and try to at least get a handle on what's inside before I head out the window!

I do rather enjoy the air conditioned or heated railroad environment in what might pass for extremes of weather hereabouts.

Matthew (OV)
 

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Posted By Richard Smith on 09/01/2008 2:40 PM
For a broad definition I would state priority rather than degree of modeling/gardening. In the broadest terms a garden railroader is one that emphasizes the garden with the railroad as part of it. An outdoor railroader on the other hand emphasizes the railroad with the garden, if any, subordinate regardless of level of expertise or adherence to prototype.


And what about the guy who goes outside and throws a few loops of track on the ground, levels it out, and ballasts it in, and puts in a couple small shrubs around without preference to either? (We saw some of these at the national convention too.) To me, he is also an "outdoor railroader."
 

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An individual that likes railroads and objects of all sorts that relate (i.e. past, present, future, & non-existent), enjoys creating representations of the same, and although not required, hopefully sees value in what others have done.
 

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That's simple. Anyone and everyone that puts a train in their yard or garden for private or public enjoyment.
 

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Posted By Les on 09/01/2008 6:30 PM

I detest the modern. I don't appreciate rivet counters but I recognize they provide a standard for guidelines and a benchmark to aim for. GR tends to be heavy on all the above 'negatives'. Especially the exotic plants section. (My definition of an exotic plant: Anything not found in a vegetable garden.) What do I like? Imagination, skill in building, innovation and the 'fun' in doing so of the hobby.

I would never jeer at the 30's era home-RR builders. I respect 'em to the core, because they worked with what they had. Today, that kind of activity seems to be regarded as not quite respectable. . .  Even in the 70s, scratchbuilding seems to have been falling out of favor in the mags. MR has a 'Teenagers Corner'. Why don't they encourage the teens to join the men and thus perhaps learn to be men? And the men need to provide what guidance is wanted, instead of what they think is wanted. Or know should be wanted. Let the kids learn by doing alongside the adults. I've gone to one 'Steam Up' or train show here in St.L. I'll never go to another. The civility, interest in answering questions, or even selling their wares of the people behind the tables pretty much mimics the business attitude of banks and cathouses. In most human activity, 'exclusion' is the operative norm. Even in this hobby, as has already been suffiently pointed out by others. The only cure for it is courtesy and a broader perspective than one's own pet interests. Les W.


Great post. I definitely appreciate the sentiment expressed here.  I count myself among those who does not possess the skills of some of the highly-impressive MLS members who create almost from scratch  rolling stock or locomotives.  Nor am I so heavily committed to one railroad line or one engine or one of anything that I would be especially perturbed if Aristocraft or U.S.A. Trains somehow failed to properly reproduce a detail or two on a steam locomotive.  But I do enjoy re-creating historic structures and then using the model railroad to highlight them. I think of it more as artistic expression and less as a hobby. In fact, I hate it when someone sees my layout and refers to it as such.  It is all in the imagination. And, yes, I would love to be able to share this endeavor with younger people.  



Those gardens: I can certainly appreciate the expertise and the work involved. But it just doesn't work for me. Instead I like to work with the native plants, perhaps adding a few choice flowering items here and there for contrast and color. But a gardener I am not. I wish you well in your own model railroad project--however you decide to approach it. I suspect it will be one fascinating piece of work. 
 
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