Tdreabe, I use IsoButane mix all the time. Right now just using a small round Accucraft tank for test purposes, and always in a warm water bath in or out doors. Expanding gas absorbs a lot of heat so the bath should be minimum 2 times larger than the fuel tank. Found the water bath for the Aristocraft Mike was so small it was totally ineffective so I surrounded it with three 5V electric heating pads using a separate battery. This burner conversion is a small part of a project just underway.
Building a ceramic burner
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Said I would order from them again, and I did. The BIX 009 was for test purposes, length is far short of what could fit in the B3 boiler. Got a 14 burner from Mini and they recommend a #8 jet which is coming from Forest Classics in UK. Being impatient I wanted to see what it would look like using a #5. This is the initial lighting before any adjustments, like what I see. Since I have to cut off about 3/4 of an inch of this burner the #5 may do the trick when all is said and done.
![Automotive lighting Gadget Gas Rectangle Electricity]()
Here is the BIX 14 with 1" removed to make it fit into the B3 boiler. This is using a #5 jet. I stumbled on this adhesive, on the shelf in utility room. I have been using this for many years on my wood stove, which is the primary heat for my house so it is in use all winter. JB Extreme heat is good for 1K'F and needs 24 hours curing time. This is no mix, air dry and in 30 minutes hardened and is ready for heat. Going to try to use it to stick handrails that came loose on a loco. I'm not a photo guy so attached is a clip of a video of the burner. None of the stills I took show the ceramic burner red only the surrounding flame???
![Tin Fluid Paint Gas Drink]()
![Automotive lighting Amber Electricity Gas Tints and shades]()
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1,587 Posts
Tdrabe
Your engine looks to be running really nicely. Did you remove the arch or leave it in?
I took a standard Accucraft burner this week and installed the correct size burner tube and removed the arch.
It ran ok but not as great as I would like. probably because the burner is so small.
Here it is on a 55 degree day with straight butane and unheated water. It maintained 40 psi even with the axle pump pumping but never got over 45 psi. The video shows it slowing down at the end but that is because a car derailed
I am thinking If Accucraft made a burner your size without an arch, that might be the way to go.
I am working with Cliff on this.
Your engine looks to be running really nicely. Did you remove the arch or leave it in?
I took a standard Accucraft burner this week and installed the correct size burner tube and removed the arch.
It ran ok but not as great as I would like. probably because the burner is so small.
Here it is on a 55 degree day with straight butane and unheated water. It maintained 40 psi even with the axle pump pumping but never got over 45 psi. The video shows it slowing down at the end but that is because a car derailed
I am thinking If Accucraft made a burner your size without an arch, that might be the way to go.
I am working with Cliff on this.
In the video, my engine is configured as delivered, with the exception of the jet I swapped out for a #8 from the train department. I am also running hot water in the tender.
Your configuration, you state the jet holder tube correction, do you mean you lengthened it to get the 6-1 length to diameter? Did you seal the fire box and vent the smoke box, Like your previous advice? Or is the engine as delivered minus the brick arch?
In the video, my engine is configured as delivered, with the exception of the jet I swapped out for a #8 from the train department. I am also running hot water in the tender.
Your configuration, you state the jet holder tube correction, do you mean you lengthened it to get the 6-1 length to diameter? Did you seal the fire box and vent the smoke box, Like your previous advice? Or is the engine as delivered minus the brick arch?
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737 Posts
Bill,
Since this boiler design is the same as the P8, shouldn’t an alcohol burner (manger type) work well here (sorry if you’ve heard this before Tyler). I was trying to convince Cliff to let me have Terry’s engine to build that into his loco. My thoughts are this should work well and no fuss with keeping heated water at your side every time you run in cool weather.
Sam
Since this boiler design is the same as the P8, shouldn’t an alcohol burner (manger type) work well here (sorry if you’ve heard this before Tyler). I was trying to convince Cliff to let me have Terry’s engine to build that into his loco. My thoughts are this should work well and no fuss with keeping heated water at your side every time you run in cool weather.
Sam
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1,587 Posts
Sam
I have never done an alcohol burner so I have no idea but I would think so. In speaking with friends it seems that getting a meth burner to steam properly can also be a problem.
Here is a draft of the conversion I did
ACCUCRAFT C 18 CONVERSION TO RADIANT
INTRODUCTION
The C 18 is currently set up as a convective boiler where the firebox and tubes are heated from the hot fumes from the ceramic burner. There is some conductive heating but that is absorbed by the stainless steel arch which deflects the heat back into the firebox. The ceramic burner is very small, less than one inch in width and uses a #4 jet which has a hole diameter of .010” which is sufficient. The arch design dates back to the first coal fired locomotive style boilers where brick arches were installed to keep the hot fumes in the firebox longer. The arch absorbed some of the radiant heat from the coal fire thus blocking it from the crown sheet but the net effect was better steaming. The current burner has a jet holder which has a length of about 1/2” past the jets which allows some air in with the butane gas but the majority of the mixture which goes through the burner is butane and the combustion occurs after the ceramic plate. To convert it to radiant, we need to extend the jet tube so we have at least a six to one length to diameter which will create a venturi situation causing more air to mix with the gas and have the combustion at the top of the plate. Below is the current burner on a test stand. The photo doesn’t pick up all of the blue flames but it does show the ceramic plate which is unchanged from its normal look.
![Gas Wood Office equipment Machine Engineering]()
Here is the same burner-and-jet with a longer jet holder Note how the ceramic plate is almost white hot and the orange flames are abundant.
![Automotive lighting Wood Gas Flame Heat]()
And here it is in the boiler
![Light Gas Machine tool Technology Engineering]()
CONVERSION
The conversion can be done by a hobbyist with average skills. The tools needed are as follows:
1. Small Phillips screwdriver (high quality)
2. Propane torch and soft solder
3. Standard hacksaw blade – fine tooth
4. Small slot screw driver and pliers or small vice grip
The parts required are:
1. K&S 5/16” outside diameter brass tubing cut to 1.7” long
2. New Accucraft ceramic plate or cut one to fit from larger plate
3. Permatex high temp RTV (from Auto Stores)
4. Small sheet of metal to cover a 3/8” hole Burner removal Here is a drawing from Accucraft of the top view of the burner mounted in the frame. It shows the two front burner screws and the jet screws on the outside of the frame which need to be removed
![Font Automotive exterior Parallel Auto part Motor vehicle]()
T
To remove the burner, remove the two front screws and the horseshoe cap holding the jet tube down with two long screws. The curved tube jet holder needs to be removed by taking out the two screws on the outside of the frame. The lower half or the buffer is held in with a screw on each end and the shoulder bolt holding the tender connector needs to be removed also. The shoulder bolt has a very narrow slot so if you don’t have a driver to fit it, you can break it loose by grabbing it with a small vice grip or pliers and then removing it with a small screwdriver
![Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Bumper Electronic instrument]()
BURNER CONVERSION
The ceramic material is soft and glued into the box which makes it almost impossible to remove it without damaging it. It should be dug out with a screwdriver and the sides of the box cleaned with an Exacto knife or similar tool.
Inside the box you will see two studs which are soldered in to holes in the bottom of the box. You can see the bottom of them in the photo above. The one nearest to the jet needs to be desoldered in order to add the tube extension. The hole can be covered with a plug soldered in like this or just a small, thin plate soldered on top
![Tool Material property Wood Gas Rectangle]()
The tube extension can be installed after the stud is removed. Cut a piece of K&S 5/16” outside tubing to 1.7” long. Coat the end with the high temp RTV and slide it into the tube till it is just to the air hole in the tube and is not covering it. A ¼” wide of strip brass can be bent and positioned as shown which evens the gas distribution by diverting some of it back toward the jet.
![Gas Cylinder Wood Auto part Metal]()
Once the box is converted like this, a new ceramic plate can be set in place and sealed around the top with RTV. Below is the original ceramic plate which was broken out and a piece of new material. The material should be cut slightly oversize on a band saw or by hand and then sanded to a perfect fit.
![Product Liquid Flooring Material property Drinkware]()
The arch removal was also documented if anyone is interested
I have never done an alcohol burner so I have no idea but I would think so. In speaking with friends it seems that getting a meth burner to steam properly can also be a problem.
Here is a draft of the conversion I did
ACCUCRAFT C 18 CONVERSION TO RADIANT
INTRODUCTION
The C 18 is currently set up as a convective boiler where the firebox and tubes are heated from the hot fumes from the ceramic burner. There is some conductive heating but that is absorbed by the stainless steel arch which deflects the heat back into the firebox. The ceramic burner is very small, less than one inch in width and uses a #4 jet which has a hole diameter of .010” which is sufficient. The arch design dates back to the first coal fired locomotive style boilers where brick arches were installed to keep the hot fumes in the firebox longer. The arch absorbed some of the radiant heat from the coal fire thus blocking it from the crown sheet but the net effect was better steaming. The current burner has a jet holder which has a length of about 1/2” past the jets which allows some air in with the butane gas but the majority of the mixture which goes through the burner is butane and the combustion occurs after the ceramic plate. To convert it to radiant, we need to extend the jet tube so we have at least a six to one length to diameter which will create a venturi situation causing more air to mix with the gas and have the combustion at the top of the plate. Below is the current burner on a test stand. The photo doesn’t pick up all of the blue flames but it does show the ceramic plate which is unchanged from its normal look.
Here is the same burner-and-jet with a longer jet holder Note how the ceramic plate is almost white hot and the orange flames are abundant.
And here it is in the boiler
CONVERSION
The conversion can be done by a hobbyist with average skills. The tools needed are as follows:
1. Small Phillips screwdriver (high quality)
2. Propane torch and soft solder
3. Standard hacksaw blade – fine tooth
4. Small slot screw driver and pliers or small vice grip
The parts required are:
1. K&S 5/16” outside diameter brass tubing cut to 1.7” long
2. New Accucraft ceramic plate or cut one to fit from larger plate
3. Permatex high temp RTV (from Auto Stores)
4. Small sheet of metal to cover a 3/8” hole Burner removal Here is a drawing from Accucraft of the top view of the burner mounted in the frame. It shows the two front burner screws and the jet screws on the outside of the frame which need to be removed
T
To remove the burner, remove the two front screws and the horseshoe cap holding the jet tube down with two long screws. The curved tube jet holder needs to be removed by taking out the two screws on the outside of the frame. The lower half or the buffer is held in with a screw on each end and the shoulder bolt holding the tender connector needs to be removed also. The shoulder bolt has a very narrow slot so if you don’t have a driver to fit it, you can break it loose by grabbing it with a small vice grip or pliers and then removing it with a small screwdriver
BURNER CONVERSION
The ceramic material is soft and glued into the box which makes it almost impossible to remove it without damaging it. It should be dug out with a screwdriver and the sides of the box cleaned with an Exacto knife or similar tool.
Inside the box you will see two studs which are soldered in to holes in the bottom of the box. You can see the bottom of them in the photo above. The one nearest to the jet needs to be desoldered in order to add the tube extension. The hole can be covered with a plug soldered in like this or just a small, thin plate soldered on top
The tube extension can be installed after the stud is removed. Cut a piece of K&S 5/16” outside tubing to 1.7” long. Coat the end with the high temp RTV and slide it into the tube till it is just to the air hole in the tube and is not covering it. A ¼” wide of strip brass can be bent and positioned as shown which evens the gas distribution by diverting some of it back toward the jet.
Once the box is converted like this, a new ceramic plate can be set in place and sealed around the top with RTV. Below is the original ceramic plate which was broken out and a piece of new material. The material should be cut slightly oversize on a band saw or by hand and then sanded to a perfect fit.
The arch removal was also documented if anyone is interested
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737 Posts
Bill,
Thanks for proving we weren’t nuts when we highlighted the issues with this engine. You are the expert as far as many are concerned on ceramic burner design—sorry Aster/Accucraft engineers but you needed to test/qc your design better instead of assuming it would be just like the P8.
The hardest part here is probably removal of the arch I’m guessing…that part could be tougher for the average guy. So, I might ask Tyler to work with him on an alcohol design since he runs mainly in cool to cold weather or ask Cliff to send me one to work on.
Sam
Thanks for proving we weren’t nuts when we highlighted the issues with this engine. You are the expert as far as many are concerned on ceramic burner design—sorry Aster/Accucraft engineers but you needed to test/qc your design better instead of assuming it would be just like the P8.
The hardest part here is probably removal of the arch I’m guessing…that part could be tougher for the average guy. So, I might ask Tyler to work with him on an alcohol design since he runs mainly in cool to cold weather or ask Cliff to send me one to work on.
Sam
Joined
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737 Posts
Bill,
I'm sure there is always pressure for engineers to get their designs out but the Aster QC team needs to take the time to make sure the customer is not the QC team....I understand we are a tinkering lot but this time it went well beyond that. Poor Terry, and I know Tyler too, spent some serious hours trying to come up with fixes. Now they will likely have some "hardware updates" to implement to get their engines to perform adequately.
Perhaps a 1/2hr to 1 hr won't be too bad for the arch removal but it's a bit much to ask for customers to do for something they shelled out some serious dollars to purchase assuming they would receive nice running engines. But, as my wife likes to remind me, it is what it is...I'm sure they both will do what they need to.
If I jump into this, the arch will stay and we'll see if we can run on alcohol Again, and I should bite my tongue for saying this, the P8 could also run fine on alcohol, so.........
Thanks again,
Sam
I'm sure there is always pressure for engineers to get their designs out but the Aster QC team needs to take the time to make sure the customer is not the QC team....I understand we are a tinkering lot but this time it went well beyond that. Poor Terry, and I know Tyler too, spent some serious hours trying to come up with fixes. Now they will likely have some "hardware updates" to implement to get their engines to perform adequately.
Perhaps a 1/2hr to 1 hr won't be too bad for the arch removal but it's a bit much to ask for customers to do for something they shelled out some serious dollars to purchase assuming they would receive nice running engines. But, as my wife likes to remind me, it is what it is...I'm sure they both will do what they need to.
If I jump into this, the arch will stay and we'll see if we can run on alcohol Again, and I should bite my tongue for saying this, the P8 could also run fine on alcohol, so.........
Thanks again,
Sam
Today I did some experiments. First thing I did was remove the burner for pictures and removed the Brick Arch for my tests.
Stock burner, stock #4 jet, ambient water temp.
Picture of the flame on the bench.
![Wood Office equipment Gas Machine Office supplies]()
And a video of it running.
Here is the same configuration but with 100F water in the tender.
![Gas Electric blue Automotive lighting Bumper Heat]()
![Wood Flooring Gas Flame Engineering]()
And the video.
Now I will try a #8 jet from the Train Department.
First with ambient temperature water.
![Wood Gas Machine Flooring Hardwood]()
And the associated video.
Here I have #8 stock burner and 100F tender.
![Gas Space Electric blue Darkness Gadget]()
![Wood Automotive tire Flame Flooring Fire]()
And the video.
Stock burner, stock #4 jet, ambient water temp.
Picture of the flame on the bench.
And a video of it running.
Here is the same configuration but with 100F water in the tender.
And the video.
Now I will try a #8 jet from the Train Department.
First with ambient temperature water.
And the associated video.
Here I have #8 stock burner and 100F tender.
And the video.
Attachments
My post last night was missing the last video.
I should have had a note card in the pictures telling me what jet I was using in each photo. I spend a lot of time scrolling through the photos trying to remember the order in which I tested the jets/water/burners on the bench.
In these photos I have the original burner that came with the engine, the bigger one I built trying to copy Bill's prior builds, and the replacement burner Cliff sent me.
I also tested the #8 jet from The Train Department vs the #4 Cliff sent me with the replacement burner.
Each configuration is tested with hot water (100F) and cool water(55F).
First is #8 cool water original burner.
![Wood Gas Machine Flooring Engineering]()
Next is #8 cool water replacement burner.
#8 cool water my burner.
![Amber Automotive lighting Electricity Gas Tints and shades]()
![Wood Gas Machine Hardwood Cylinder]()
Then I swapped jets to #4 cool water.
Original burner.
![Wood Office equipment Floor Flooring Gas]()
Replacement burner.
![Wood Office equipment Gas Machine Office supplies]()
My burner
![Wood Flooring Gas Office equipment Machine]()
![Automotive lighting Flooring Gas Table Wood]()
The next post will have the hot water pictures because I'm going to run out of allowed attachments.
I should have had a note card in the pictures telling me what jet I was using in each photo. I spend a lot of time scrolling through the photos trying to remember the order in which I tested the jets/water/burners on the bench.
In these photos I have the original burner that came with the engine, the bigger one I built trying to copy Bill's prior builds, and the replacement burner Cliff sent me.
I also tested the #8 jet from The Train Department vs the #4 Cliff sent me with the replacement burner.
Each configuration is tested with hot water (100F) and cool water(55F).
First is #8 cool water original burner.
Next is #8 cool water replacement burner.
#8 cool water my burner.
Then I swapped jets to #4 cool water.
Original burner.
Replacement burner.
My burner
The next post will have the hot water pictures because I'm going to run out of allowed attachments.
Attachments
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737 Posts
Tyler,
What are the results from these improvement tests?
Sam
What are the results from these improvement tests?
Sam
The results of the engine running are above in the videos. So far I have only been able to test the Replacement Burner with the 2 jet options and water options. Next time I run I will get my burner installed and test the jets/heat options.
So far I'm seeing the number 4 jet performs better than the #8 in both water bath conditions. So far I would rate the best running is the #4 jet Hot water no Arch. Then #8 jet hot water, Close behind that is #4 jet cool water. In last is the #8 jet cool water.
Removing the Arch is an absolute necessity. there is no reason to test future versions with the arch installed in a ceramic gas loco. Prior tests of cold water with the Arch installed would only drive 50 feet before the engine would stall. Without the arch the engine will continue to chug slowly. Until you start adding water to the boiler.
I will comment this though. This is the first time I had the wind blow out the flame. Whether or not it is because the Arch was removed is unclear.
So far I'm seeing the number 4 jet performs better than the #8 in both water bath conditions. So far I would rate the best running is the #4 jet Hot water no Arch. Then #8 jet hot water, Close behind that is #4 jet cool water. In last is the #8 jet cool water.
Removing the Arch is an absolute necessity. there is no reason to test future versions with the arch installed in a ceramic gas loco. Prior tests of cold water with the Arch installed would only drive 50 feet before the engine would stall. Without the arch the engine will continue to chug slowly. Until you start adding water to the boiler.
I will comment this though. This is the first time I had the wind blow out the flame. Whether or not it is because the Arch was removed is unclear.
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1,587 Posts
Tyler
Just a point of information, The engine I was testing has a jet that was stamped #4 I checked the orifice and it was .010 or .25 mm which is the same size as a #8 jet. The literature from Accucraft states that the jet is larger than their normal jets so it may be that the #4 was drilled out to a #8 size. Jason states that his jets are a better quality and that may be the case.
Were these videos with an arch in or out,?
Just a point of information, The engine I was testing has a jet that was stamped #4 I checked the orifice and it was .010 or .25 mm which is the same size as a #8 jet. The literature from Accucraft states that the jet is larger than their normal jets so it may be that the #4 was drilled out to a #8 size. Jason states that his jets are a better quality and that may be the case.
Were these videos with an arch in or out,?
Here are the pictures of the bench tests with hot water.
#4 jet
Original burner
![Flame Wood Gas Fire Heat]()
Replacement burner
![Wood Flooring Gas Flame Engineering]()
My burner
![Wood Gas Heat Flame Flooring]()
And the last set of tests.
#8 jet hot water.
Original burner
![Flame Gas Heat Fire Welding]()
Replacement burner
![Wood Automotive tire Flame Flooring Fire]()
My burner
![Wood Purple Flooring Gas Heat]()
Based on these observations, I feel the best performance will come from my burner with the #4 jet with cool water in mind.
The other benefit to my burner will be the elimination of the need for a fan or blower to force the draft.
#4 jet
Original burner
Replacement burner
My burner
And the last set of tests.
#8 jet hot water.
Original burner
Replacement burner
My burner
Based on these observations, I feel the best performance will come from my burner with the #4 jet with cool water in mind.
The other benefit to my burner will be the elimination of the need for a fan or blower to force the draft.
Attachments
All these tests are without the arch. I'm not putting that thing back in again if I'm using Butane.
That's another factor I failed to mention. All of these tests are with Coleman butane. Not mixed gas.
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