[boilingwater]

Bill,
Can you provide more detail for the existing system to function better? Is it just the tube length to achieve both the convective and the radiant heat…or is there more to it? I’m not a thermodynamics engineer nor do I have the know how to design a burner system from scratch. I use to rely on Kevin o’connor for these questions but unfortunately he’s not here to suggest solutions.

Sam

 

[Tdreabe]

Here is an example testing my burner out of the locomotive with non warm water and warm water around the gas tank using butane, not blende gas. I was quite surprised with the results and didn't expect to see this big of difference considering it was about 60 degrees outside. I am deff eager to get it back together and give it a run with warm water. I am sure some of us have defective burners based on previous photos and I consider my self one of the lucky ones but I still think the burner could be better for example, the rear section has no flame but for me if it works thats good enough.

The first four photos are using warm water around the gas tank and gas valve at 1/2 to 1 full turn open. The burner and fire were really roaring and tip of flame to ceramic was easily 7 inches in height/length.
View attachment 65424

Below is lowest I could get the fire using warm water, basically the same as using non warm water in the tender.
View attachment 65425
View attachment 65422
View attachment 65421

Here is the fire with non warm water around the gas tank. The little blue triangle flames are barely noticeable the best way for me to capture them in photo was to get the camera lens eye level with the burner. Also this is with the gas valve wide open. I would also say the overall height/length of the flame from tip to ceramic is around 3 inches.
View attachment 65423

Holy Fireballs Batman!

That's a huge difference and probably the source of my problems.

Could you define "warm water" for me in a scientific measurement? Celsius Fahrenheit or Kelvin will all suffice as satisfactory measurements.

When I was expecting delivery of the engine I asked around for advice on what is acceptable and was told a warm room temperature was enough, 70F. And warmed about the stories of tanks exploding with boiling water, so I took the guidance of keep the water in the dining room and that's enough when I go to the garage.

Friday Cliff told me the "finger test" hot, but not too hot to keep your finger in the water. Or like hot water from the tap. 110-120F.

That's way more than I expected.

Is that what you're doing?

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[bille1906]

here is a graph showing the pressure/temp

 

[Tdreabe]

Bill,
Can you provide more detail for the existing system to function better? Is it just the tube length to achieve both the convective and the radiant heat…or is there more to it? I’m not a thermodynamics engineer nor do I have the know how to design a burner system from scratch. I use to rely on Kevin o’connor for these questions but unfortunately he’s not here to suggest solutions.

Sam

Sam,
The whole fire system needs a correction.

1. The burner design needs a larger ceramic plate.
2. More fuel delivery, best via a dual jet system requiring less pressure.
3. The piping needs to increase in size because the current size is a restriction to flow, needing more pressure.
4. The reason people are needing to add hot water is the evaporative surface area of the gas tank is too small. Leading to low pressure. A horizontal tank like a twin poker burner K- has would probably help.

And the jet tube venturi is needed to make it self venting.

That's my take away of this engine's fire system after my fevered research into how these systems work.

Bill can confirm or correct me.

It's an alcohol engine wearing a butane bandage.

 

[RioGrandeFan]

Could you define "warm water" for me in a scientific measurement? Celsius Fahrenheit or Kelvin will all suffice as satisfactory measurements.

My water was 110F, sorry I thought I included that info.

 

[RioGrandeFan]

Today if i have time I am going to test camping gas mix. I will make sure to note the exact water temps.
I remember you did a video taking temp of the Ruby tank from the boiler heat and looking back at that video it shows the gas tank around 60F. Adding 60F water to the bath will probably cool down very quickly causing poor performance and require to change the water bath more frequently vs adding much warmer/hotter water. The 60F on the Ruby is being maintained from the boiler and the tender temp isn't being maintained by anything, it's actually being attack from the outside cold air.
A member here recommended maybe adding a steam pipe from the back head of the boiler equipped with a valve and running the pipe back to water bath to constantly keep the bath warm, a feature that I've been told is on the K-36 and maybe some other models. I think it's a great idea that should be included on all locomotives with a water bath in a tender.

 

[bille1906]

I just checked my files and I do have a drawing of the burner I designed for Accucraft, the measurements are metric.

 

[boilingwater]

Bill,
Thank you!

Sam

 

[Gary Woolard]

My very first day running my C-18 under load was educational. It was a coolish day to begin with, and got down to a breezy "50's by the time I finished a 2nd run.
In spite of a leaky water line coupling, the first run was flawless. I got a good 1/2 hour run dragging 10 heavy cars without rolling bearing wheels. Got a bit of a wheel slip at first, but then the engine took hold and ran like a charm. I had filled the gas tank from a pretty cold canister, then put warm/tepid water in the tender.
But in the 2nd run, I had problems keeping the ceramic burner lit, and had difficulty raising more than 20 lbs pressure, which just wasn't quite enough. But by that run the tender water had become as cold as my numb fingers.
I believe that the C-18's ceramic burner simply requires more gas pressure behind it than a poker burner does in order to be a 'happy camper.' The problem is, butane actually has a fairly narrow temperature window to make good pressure.
Back in 2020, we ran a 'Bob's Bit's' article in SitG, where Bob Sorenson discussed the differences between propane and butane, and how responsive they are to different temperatures. I'm taking the liberty (I hope) of attaching a PDF of that article here -
Well, this editor says it's attached, let's see -
-gw2-
(P.S. - I would have written this up in a review of the C-18 for SitG, but I was halfway through writing it when they pulled the plug)
(P,P.S - Cliff Luscher fixed the water line coupling)

 

[bille1906]

I have a little time this afternoon and reread the postings.
Tyler, looking at your burner, it doesn't look like it is hot enough to pre ignite. The burner needs to be air tight including around the plate and jets. Also you could be getting some flame being forced back and into the jet air holes.
For my system to work, the burner box must be the same size as the bottom of the firebox and then sealed off with high temp RTV (Permatex brand is sold at auto stores) The smokebox then needs an air hole at the bottom at least 1/2" in diameter. This allows the combustion gas to easily flow through the tubes and out the stack without a blower.
There should not be an arch or any other blockage between the ceramic plate and the crown sheet as this is where the majority of the radiant heat is absorbed.
The gas jet stream is a cone that has 6:1 ratio. Most jets have an outside diameter of 5/16" which is the inside diameter of the tube so 6 x 5/16 is 30/16 or just under 2". Any less that this and the cone will not contact the inside of the tube and there will be little or no venturi effect.
All of this must happen for this system to work. When I designed the system for Accucraft, I was expecting to see an engine that could pull 20 or more cars at top speed with the gas valve turned down. As mentioned here, mechanically, it is perfectly designed. As you can see the boiler design has changed from the original plan.

On the plate material, I have never had pre ignition with the Bruce Engineering product but they are no longer selling it. Accucraft attempted to source some but were unsuccessful. I only had the pre ignition a few times with the harder material and still have some engines running with it with no problems. Assuming everything is sealed up, the only problems seem to be when the burner is pushed past its limit by using fuel mixture or too hot of a water bath.

I haven't seen a C18 yet but it looks like there is space around the burner and it may have an arch between the burner and the crown sheet. The smoke box is sealed and it is drafted by a blower valve and exhaust nozzle. Startup is with a stack fan. Not drafting the system will cause the flames to come out the bottom of the firebox and could go into the burner box through the jet air holes.

If I were to redo the boiler, I would either make a new box the size of the firebox (Preferred) or seal off the sides of the existing box to make it air tight at the bottom. I would drill out the bottom of the smokebox and then replace the jet tube with one of the proper length. The arch would need to be removed if it has one. I would also remove the exhaust nozzle which would reduce the drafting.

This is an interesting topic. I am currently building and posting on the Trojan and will try to spend more time on the boiler and burner build which may help.

 

[RioGrandeFan]

Here is my first test using mixed camping gas made by Jet Boil and its ratio is 80% Iso-butane and 20% propane.
For this test 60F water was used in the tender bath. Looks and sounds the same as straight butane with hot/warm water in the tender bath, as a reminder my hot/warm water was 110F while using straight butane.

First photo bellow is the lowest setting.

Second photo at 1/2 turn from closed on the gas valve with my shop lights on.

Third photo 1 full turn open from closed on the gas valve and shop lights on.

Last photo same as third photo but with shop lights off.

 

[RioGrandeFan]

Here is my second test.
Jet Boil mix gas 80% Iso-butane and 20% propane, 105F water in the tender bath. The burner and fire sounded insane you can see the parts of blue flame turning almost white and for me the camping gas with "room" temp water is what I will probably always run.

My final testing will be with the burner re installed in the locomotive.

First photo gas valve on lowest setting.

Second photo 1/2 turn from closed on gas valve.

Third photo same as above with lights on.

Finally 1 full turn open from closed on the gas valve, the fire and burner is really screaming here making me uncomfortable. The combination of warm water and mix gas is probably pushing the burner past it's limits.

 

[Tdreabe]

Here is my second test.
Jet Boil mix gas 80% Iso-butane and 20% propane, 105F water in the tender bath. The burner and fire sounded insane you can see the parts of blue flame turning almost white and for me the camping gas with "room" temp water is what I will probably always run.

My final testing will be with the burner re installed in the locomotive.

First photo gas valve on lowest setting.
View attachment 65447

Second photo 1/2 turn from closed on gas valve.
View attachment 65451

Third photo same as above with lights on.
View attachment 65452

Finally 1 full turn open from closed on the gas valve, the fire and burner is really screaming here making me uncomfortable. The combination of warm water and mix gas is probably pushing the burner past it's limits.
View attachment 65453

Thank you very much for taking a scientific approach to making observations.

I did go back through the video and looked at the temps my Ruby gas tank had. The upper half, outside wall away from the boiler measured between 47-52f.

 

[Gerald]

Hello,
I'm following this thread with interest and have already built ceramic burners myself with more or less success.
Among other things, a burner for an Aster 3-cylinder Shay, the Shay has been resold, I still have the burner, it has worked best for me so far, after a while it burns with an orange-red ceramic plate,
I also own a ceramic burner from Regner Aurach, they also burn with an orange-red ceramic plate.
Regner

What I found out about the Regner burner, the burner tube goes through the whole brass box to the other end and has slits on the bottom half, these point towards the ground and have been cut with a thin circular saw blade about half the diameter of the burner tube deep. Having seen this on the burner purchased, the burner was built for the Aster-Shay and as described above develops a beautiful orange-red flame.

I hope I expressed myself clearly here, I created the text with a translation program.

There is also an interesting post in a German forum about a self-made ceramic burner, of course everything in German, but with a translation I think you can read some of the builder's experience.
Buntbahn

Greetings, Gerald

 

[Tdreabe]

Well,
I finally had a chance to steam my engine with the advice of the 110F tender water. It turns out the only defect my engine had as delivered may be some loose hardware here and there, and a novice operator.

She wasn't lifting the safety the whole time, but it's the best steaming I've had and I was able to steam her with at least the same capabilities as my Ruby.

 

[RioGrandeFan]

Nice to see it running better! At least now you can run your locomotive while you work on a new burner design.

I'd probably try blended camping gas with room temp water especially where you are with the cold weather, unless keeping hot water around isn't a hassle. Do you happen to know how many turns out the gas valve was? Anything over a full turn from closed for me didn't show a difference.
It looks like a nice runner for sure. You should put a load like a brick on that flat car and see how she does.

 

[Nick Jr]

For another project I ordered the BIX 009 and with their recommendation also got the #5 Jet. Received and assembled it. This is the best I could get out of it. Clearly not good.

After several Emails, this was my final response from them "
"Hello
I have forwarded you email to the manufacturer. I am not sure I can get a different jet with different results. I think they had to find a new machine shop for the jets and that might be as good as it gets now".
When I asked for clarification got no response. So I decided can't do any worst than that.

Ordered a ceramic plate from Amazon for the Buddy heater, drilled holes to allow more air, I'm a happy man. Next is to get it into the B3 boiler and test. Will I order from then again? Yes as it's a good place to start.

 

[Nick Jr]

Made an adapter to hold the ceramic burner to the B3 boiler with a viewing hole. Lit it outside the boiler and slid it in. Only ran it for a short time for a test, like what I see. Now can put that roaring alcohol torch away.

 

[Nick Jr]

During this mornings initial test of the burner installed in the boiler: Burner was glowing red and pressure was building. A loud pop than a roaring sound, then a stream of smoke came out of the stack. View hole showed dull red, I shut off the gas momentarily then turned it back on. The ceramic was so hot it ignited. It happened again. Found the burner got so hot the flame popped back down below the ceramic, the smoke was the paint burning off the burner housing. Adjusted for a little less air and the rest of the test went well, I'm happy. Thank You

 

[Tdreabe]

Great to hear Nick.

I'm glad you're able to have an alternate fuel and fire source for your boiler.
I am interested in details on your fuel source. Tank size, air temp, any warm water bath????

My attempts at burner building are being delayed by the building of my carrying case for the engine. Those efforts are taking place at a friend's house who has more of the 'fine cabinetry' tools. Not the portable saws I have. I'll be posting those details in a different thread.

I will be attempting to reproduce a burner from Bill's drawings. The dimensions will be altered slightly in order to fit without altering the stock engine boiler. In essence I will be adding a second jet to the burner I already built. I will also be building a different jet holder to be able to adjust mixture, like you needed to for your burner. The stock Accucraft jet holder is not adjustable.

I will also be following Bill's advice, remove the flame deflector, seal the burner and firebox, and vent the smoke box. For the initial tests I will simply remove the smoke box door.

To seal the fire door, I plan to silicone on a piece of ceramic glass, then I can still observe the fire.

I will be sure to post progress when I have my materials.