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Building a ceramic burner

6490 Views 129 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  RioGrandeFan, 
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I have been having issues with the ceramic burner supplied with my C-18 locomotive. I haven't reached out to the manufacturer yet. I could be simply experiencing a defective burner that doesn't perform like the rest that were produced. I don't want to make any negative remarks towards the manufacturer for something that could be an anomaly.
Besides steam production, there are many great comments I, and other steamers, make about this engine. Very smooth, self starting, perfectly timed out of the box. Excellent boiler insulation in the design. Just a wonderful engine if I get a good fire. The manual even specifically says a strong fire is needed (from the supplied burner.)

Watch Calipers Gauge Analog watch Finger

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Watch Clock Analog watch Gauge Wood

Since my primary running season is outdoors in Wisconsin winters, I find it obvious that I will require a more capable than stock burner. And because I simply want to build something, I haven't tried before, I am starting this.

The existing burner has a surface area of 2.1 square inches, without modifications to the the rest of the engine I can increase the burner to 3 square inches. A 43% increase in burner surface area. This will also help seal off the bottom of the firebox as I'm told is necessary for a ceramic burner.

Wheel Automotive tire Vehicle Train Rolling stock

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Clock Engineering Gas


I will be switching to the "hard" ceramic material in this burner.

I am hoping that Bill will weigh in with his insights on ceramic burners.

My design calls for 1 inch wide by 3 inches long and 0.93 inches tall. I will be increasing the length of the jet tube to resemble Bill's design in this post.
This post of Bill's build thread. Is the best I found with details of the burner design. His Blue Comet article in Steam in the Garden also has some details on burner design.

If there are other informative posts for ceramic burner design I would greatly appreciate them.
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Tyler,
Good start. I was hoping there was something out there close enough to work for you but if others have a burner issue, you may be getting requests for measurements or building more. Terry’s engine is coming tomorrow so we’ll see if we have a repeat of the problem or not.

I look forward, as I know you do, to seeing a workable solution for your engine. I’m confident that an improved burner similar to Mr Allen’s will get your engine strongly steaming as it should.

Sam
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Tyler,
Terry’s C-18 arrived yesterday-no tender change as he requested. oh well, not too surprising.

He also fought with loosening up the drain-cocks-1hr he says…of course, he had the same leaky cylinder drain cock when “closed” as you did.

In spite of that, i think like you, he was ok with the engine as tested in his 1st run. She ran for 25 mins without the axle pump and she came up to pressure in 15 mins from cold.

Also like your c-18, the safeties only were used at startup but didn’t make enough fire to pop after that. I wasn’t there to witness any of this so I can’t speak to the burner performance in general. Of course, he would like to give me back the fan I gave him…but your experience with the test burner may provide some insight into whether that can be achieved.

His 2nd run reminded me of one if yours: it would run for a while then stop and the pressure drops…drain cocks leaking too…he was pretty irritated…

He’s going to test the axle pump later to tonight.

I’ll let you know more when I make it over there to check it out personally.

Sam
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Tyler,
Sounds like Terry may also have a “defective” burner..,although I haven’t seen his in operation as yet. if you have enough of these “defects”, then there’s either a subset of burners with some substandard ceramic material (maybe ceramic from a specific lot) and/or a design flaw in general that becomes apparent under specific conditions (colder temps vs warm).
i certainly would call Cliff (might have done that first) and ask for a replacement. I’ll encourage Terry to do likewise. We’ll see if the problems go away…

Still a good exercise for you to experiment with improving the design of the burner. You will undoubtedly learn more if you try to make an alcohol burner for this engine. Given where you live and your planned operating window ( winter), that design should work better for you anyway….Remember there is a reason why Aster largely moved away from gas burners—besides their early attempts being problematic.

For a beginner, you’ve come a long way fast.

Sam
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Tyler,

That's a bit unfortunate..the removal of fan is a major plus...however, the inability to maintain a strong stable fire is puzzling and disappointing...I was hopeful that the close copy to Allen's design would do the job. Perhaps folks with more experience in burner design can chime in. What is different about this boiler design that keeps this burner or the original from effectively working.?

Hopefully, you get some better answers before you move on to an alcohol burner.

Sam
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I'd be tempted to ship the engine back to Accucraft for another ....especially if there are others out there who have fine running engines.

Sam
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tyler,

I’ll look for my spare alcohol tank. It should be a lot easier to make a manger wick box to test. The baffle is usually designed into alcohol fired engines to direct heat. Perhaps Acc felt like it was needed based on the design of the boiler.

The manger wick works great on both my Daylight and U1. I think I also have some material to create the wicks for you.

Like I said before, this is the better way for you to go given the cool weather or winter time operation based on your work schedule.

I’ll see what I can get together for you.

Any word from Cliff on a replacement burner?

Sam
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What, you mean clicking your heels three times and saying “The burner works…the burner works…it really really works” doesn’t do it?

Terry’s still trying to stop the drain cocks from leaking…apparently the clicking isn’t working for him either…he’s going have to really click hard when he gets to the burner..

Perhaps shipping a new and improved engine from Japan to go you guys might be in order since you both have “lemons”…

Apparently, no one else is having any of these issues…so maybe just a couple of substandard builds.😉

The burners on all my Ks work great once lit, my C16 is fine, so is the C-25 and Terry’s c19 steams well. All poker burners…but maybe this ceramic version bucks what is otherwise a stellar record by Accucraft. Do they have other ceramic burner locos out there? If so, i’m assuming they all work well. So, what’s different here?

Sam
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Kevin,
worth a try..i suppose.
I have a c25 also (old version) and also fine. I had the coal/ceramic burner version but that one was sacrificed to get a k37…your k28 was replaced with a K36…so I never got to run the 25 on butane but it works…nicd and a bigger boiler too.

I love those Ks—Accucraft did a great job there-amazing running engines. Hopefully this is just an anomaly but painful to deal with for Tyler and Terry.

Sam
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Bill,

Thanks for weighing in. Given what you said, why does there seem to be a variance in performance? Some seem to have few problems while others, significant ones. If largely a design flaw, wouldn’t we see marginal performance across all engines?

Apparently, all ceramics, as you stated, are not the same. I had both types. The original was the soft pyramid design you mentioned. Since we didn’t understand how that stuff worked, we looked at the harder ceramic. That worked as you described.

The blower made me think this was originally designed for alcohol. So, the thought was why not go that way. Perhaps that’s the direction Accucraft should move toward unless there is some way your design can be realized. Thoughts there?

sam
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Tom,

Thanks for weighing in. It’s great that you agree with Cliff regarding the effectiveness of the burner. it sounds like there are some nicely running engines out there and I certainly hope that’s the case for the majority.

There are two engines here, however, with some serious qc issues. One guy is relatively inexperienced—fair enough—(but he’s an aircraft mechanic…..) and Terry Seese is a very experienced live steamer with over 20 yrs in the hobby. Terry was checking the gas line today under the tender and saw he had to take the front truck off to get to the fitting. He couldn't figure it out… screw would turn, and wouldn't loosen—IT was STRIPPED!!! He couldn't get it back in either. The trucks were built upside down with no bolts to be seen…The feature function certainly is a step up from other engines in the C-series but there appears to be some significant quality control issues on several of these locomotives. Maybe these are the only rotten apples in the basket—and i doubt it— but it isn’t a ‘learning curve’ or a ‘breaking your engine in’ or ‘checking the obvious stuff’ issue here. I pretty sure Tyler or Terry would not characterize this as a “bargain”. If the lion share of the engines are good, then an exchange of these two engines for quality tested ones is what is needed. Hopefully, Cliff does that after satisfying himself that everything has been tried.

Sam
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Terry sent this for me to see:

White Green Line Pattern Cutting mat

Here is the remnant next to good bolt and fire or lack thereof is above with Tyler…more than 1 full turn. Not much to see with the tender Terry had to drill out the shoulder bolt holding the truck on. He was trying to check the banjo fitting under the tank. Starting on that end checking the gas system. Rear truck came off no issue, naturally.

The leaking drain cocks were fixed by adjusting the yoke with pliers on one side. He finally got it to move the same as other valve.
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According to print trucks right-side up but flanged on top and can't swivel enough to get to the mounting bolts that the pedestal truck sits on. All screws not accessible from bottom. Seems goofy.

Gas Cutting mat Machine Auto part Metal

Terry is turning a new shoulder bolt…

All the pics I have for now..
Sam
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Bill,
Can you provide more detail for the existing system to function better? Is it just the tube length to achieve both the convective and the radiant heat…or is there more to it? I’m not a thermodynamics engineer nor do I have the know how to design a burner system from scratch. I use to rely on Kevin o’connor for these questions but unfortunately he’s not here to suggest solutions.

Sam
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Bill,
Thank you!

Sam
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Bill,

Since this boiler design is the same as the P8, shouldn’t an alcohol burner (manger type) work well here (sorry if you’ve heard this before Tyler). I was trying to convince Cliff to let me have Terry’s engine to build that into his loco. My thoughts are this should work well and no fuss with keeping heated water at your side every time you run in cool weather.

Sam
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Bill,

Thanks for proving we weren’t nuts when we highlighted the issues with this engine. You are the expert as far as many are concerned on ceramic burner design—sorry Aster/Accucraft engineers but you needed to test/qc your design better instead of assuming it would be just like the P8.

The hardest part here is probably removal of the arch I’m guessing…that part could be tougher for the average guy. So, I might ask Tyler to work with him on an alcohol design since he runs mainly in cool to cold weather or ask Cliff to send me one to work on.

Sam
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Bill,

I'm sure there is always pressure for engineers to get their designs out but the Aster QC team needs to take the time to make sure the customer is not the QC team....I understand we are a tinkering lot but this time it went well beyond that. Poor Terry, and I know Tyler too, spent some serious hours trying to come up with fixes. Now they will likely have some "hardware updates" to implement to get their engines to perform adequately.

Perhaps a 1/2hr to 1 hr won't be too bad for the arch removal but it's a bit much to ask for customers to do for something they shelled out some serious dollars to purchase assuming they would receive nice running engines. But, as my wife likes to remind me, it is what it is...I'm sure they both will do what they need to.

If I jump into this, the arch will stay and we'll see if we can run on alcohol Again, and I should bite my tongue for saying this, the P8 could also run fine on alcohol, so.........

Thanks again,
Sam
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Tyler,

What are the results from these improvement tests?

Sam
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Tyler,

perhaps Accucraft should employ you to fix these locos…nice work—being an aircraft mechanic makes this probably seem like easy stuff!

Sam
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Tyler/Bill,

So, when I mean results, I’m referring to how long your engine stayed under steam and what was the running characteristics…

For example, with the old burner, it ran for 5 mins and maintained 40psi for ‘x’ time. With the new burner it ran for 10 mins at 50psi…At some point, a decision on whether it’s “fixed” is going to based on some extended run time
at a sustainable pressure.


Sam
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