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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone know of any drawings or pictures of EBT #4, "Cornwal"l or #5 "Shirley"? Barring that how about Uintah #10 or #11. All four of these locomotives are Baldwin Class 10 22-E-XX with drawings held by the DeGoyler Library. Before I spend the $$ for a drawing I'd like to try and determine how close they might be to OR&L #76 & #98 which were also Class 10 22-E.

Jeff Livingston
Kaneohe, Hawaii
 

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Was looking for a photo of this the other day to determine what it looked like... how fortunate it's going on here now. Kevin ... your TVRR 2-8-0, does it have an EBT cognate? Was trying to figure out how many roads had 2-8-0's with an outside frame a la the Bachmann "Connie" somewhere between KMR #7 and the C-21, C-25, inclusive..... The KMR became White Pass, the Crystal River became a few different things... there were a couple in Death Valley .... and of course the modern day Alder Gulch and Ashby locomotives which were "south of the border" originally .... were there any "eastern" prototypes in the family? How many of the B-mann "connie" roadnames are real, and how many imagined, if not for that particular locomotive, for that general "genre" of loco?

Matthew (OV)
 

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Posted By Jeff Livingston on 11/13/2008 5:15 PM
Anyone know of any drawings or pictures of EBT #4, "Cornwal"l or #5 "Shirley"? Barring that how about Uintah #10 or #11. All four of these locomotives are Baldwin Class 10 22-E-XX with drawings held by the DeGoyler Library. Before I spend the $$ for a drawing I'd like to try and determine how close they might be to OR&L #76 & #98 which were also Class 10 22-E.

Jeff Livingston
Kaneohe, Hawaii



"Chime"


Jeff, as Kevin says, I've been doing some research since I discovered that R&K says the wheel of EBT's locos were 40", exactly the same as the Bachmann ten-wheeler.

In fact, to digress for a moment, I've been having a hassle over in another thread ("Quartering..") and posted this pic:



Which you will find looks rather like the chassis of this loco:



The expert is David Fletcher, and I have been emailing him with questions and clarifications. (Send my your email and I'll forward the correspondance to you.) There are 3 photos of #3 and #4 in Rainey & Kuyper - that's one of them.
The Friends of the EBT "Timber Transfer" mag Vol 22/4 has drawings of #4 done by Deane Mellander from the photos, and I've copied them and printed them with Scaleprint at 1:20.3. It is taped to my workbench top.


Golyer Library at SMU recently put their collection online sorted by road name, and they have 4 EBT drawings of 10-22-E-2 (#4 "Cornwall"!) and 10-22-E-3 (#5 "Shirley") on page 22: Baldwin Drawings in DeGolyer Library sorted by roadname.

HOWEVER, neither drawing (I have the two 'SE' side elevations, $35 each as they are 4'+ ) bears exact resemblance to the locos delivered. The chassis is totally different: wheels spaced like a C-16 with two center blind drivers together, approx 38" drivers, plus the #5 drawing shows a flat top boiler - very like a C-16. I photographed it, but as the lines are faint it doesn't show well:
Photo of 10-22-E-3 EBT #5 "Shirley" Drawing
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Guys,

OR&L #76 & 98 were inside frame, 10 22-E's and it looks like EBT #4 is outside frame so it would be a non-starter for me. EBT #5 by your description Pete is more like OR&L #76 & 98 both of which had flat top boilers and 36 inch drivers built in 1897. EBT #5 looks like it might be closer and I'll be in touch. 76 & 98 were the first two Baldwin 2-8-0's ordered by the OR&L. Two more, #22 & 31 were ordered in 1902, 10 17/32-E-14 & 15. Both 22 & 31 had blind center drivers so it wouldn't be inconsistant that &6 & 98 would have them too. I'm going through the DeGolyer Library list of 10 22-E's and have located a picture of Soledad Plantation "Aramao", 10 22-E-48 which looks promising. http://www.masshist.org/photographs/query3.cfm?queryID=168

Jeff Livingston
Kaneohe, Hawaii
 

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Jeff, I think you've got it backwards. The OR&L locos are outside frame, at least near as I can tell from this photo:
http://www.oahurailway.com/media/Marumoto1910.gif

The EBT's locos were all inside frame. EBT nos. 3 - 5 were virtually identical. Pete, your drawing is interesting in that it also shows an extended smokebox--something the EBT locos did not have, at least not originally. I'd be hard-pressed to believe that the drawing you got is actually the EBT's locomotive--certainly not an erection drawing for it. There's just too much that's different.

Matt, the EBT didn't have any outside-frame locos. There were a very small number of outside frame locos east of the Mississippi. There are two photos in Hilton's "American Narrow Gauge Railroads" of outside frame locos that worked east of the Mississippi. One, a 2-6-0 that ran in NY, and another 0-8-0 that originally ran on the Crystal River in Colorado, but then went to Georgia as a 2-8-0, then to North Carolina before heading south of the border. (Hilton contradicts himself a bit; the 0-8-0 was built in 1893, and he later says the first outside frame locos built for domestic use were the Crystal River's 2-8-0s, which were built in 1900, and later went to the D&RGW.)

Later,

K
 

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Incidentally, for you guys who might want something a little different...

The boiler and cab assembly of EBTs #3/4/5 are pretty similar to the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 and 2-6-0. Compare this side view of Jack's New Ol' #12 with the photo of #4 above.



[If anyone has a spare boiler, it would save me a lot of work!]

I also commented to Dave Fletcher that one could squeeze another pair of blind drivers onto that loco to make something very close to the Baldwin dwg 10 22 E2 of EBT #4 that I linked above.
 

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After looking at the photo roster in Chiddix and Simpson's book "Next Stop Honolulu" All OR&L locomotives were OUTSIDE FRAME with the exception of the 4-4-0's and one 4-6-0 #111 (which the crews thought to be unstable because it was INSIDE FRAME). #76 and #98 could be bashed from the Bachman Connie. Counterweights may have to be modified a bit. When I was assigned to Tripler Army Medical Center in 1969, the railroad was gone (sob) and all that was left were some flatcars down on the docks at the pineapple cannery and the stuff rotting in the Bishop Museum. Thank goodness most has been saved at Ewa. Conde's Sigar Trains Pictorial also shows #76 and 98 as outside frame engines.
Also the May/June NGSL Gazette has a painting of #76 on the front cover. I think someone here in the mainland has bashed a B'man connie to a #76 or 98 but don't quote me. I remember reading how he modified the counter weights but cannot find the article.
Noel
 

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Posted By East Broad Top on 11/14/2008 12:38 PM
..., and another 0-8-0 that originally ran on the Crystal River in Colorado, but then went to Georgia as a 2-8-0, then to North Carolina before heading south of the border. (Hilton contradicts himself a bit; the 0-8-0 was built in 1893, and he later says the first outside frame locos built for domestic use were the Crystal River's 2-8-0s, which were built in 1900, and later went to the D&RGW.)




The North Carolina one was for the Mt. Airy and Eastern, which ran just a few miles from where I am now. I have ONE photo of that engine, and it's not on the MA&E, but on some locmotive seller's transfer table sometime after the railroad folded up .... it's a 2-8-0 at that point, and except for the valve gear and wooden cab could be a close relative of Bachmann's engine. So .. that engine was one of Crystal River's as well? Interesting... they liked the design well enough to go on to a C-25 too, apparently...

Matthew (OV)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
All,

Please note the time my last post was made, 0605. I'd just got to work and didn't have my first cup of coffee yet. 76 and 98 are outside frame. Boy, do I feel foolish now.

Noel, If you ever want to bash a "Connie" into an OR&L loco, #32, 34, 35 and 36 are the easiest to do. #22 & 31 are more difficult due to the valve gear and for 76, 98, 37 or 39 the boilers and cabs require scratchbuilding. I'm working on a 76 and 37 now. The only model of 76 I know of lives in CA and is built on a C-16 chassis.

Jeff Livingston
Kaneohe, Hawaii
 

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Damn and blast the forum interface


Matthew,
I know what you mean - if you punch the 'quote' link it is tough to figure out where the header stops and your un-formatted reply starts.

I found an easier way - use the 'quote' button on the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page. The last block text you copied to the clipboard will be inserted between [*quote] [*/quote] markers which are easy to see. (That's how I added this.)

You can even type [*quote] yourself (w/o the *) anywhere in the text.
Easy!
 

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Posted By Pete Thornton on 11/14/2008 3:45 PM
Damn and blast the forum interface


Matthew,
I know what you mean - if you punch the 'quote' link it is tough to figure out where the header stops and your un-formatted reply starts.

I found an easier way - use the 'quote' button on the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page. The last block text you copied to the clipboard will be inserted between [*quote] [*/quote] markers which are easy to see. (That's how I added this.)

You can even type [*quote] yourself (w/o the *) anywhere in the text.
Easy!



Or... the first thing you type after you click in the reply text box is "Ctrl-End"... that is; Hold down the "Ctrl" key and type the "End" key before you begin typing your reply.

Or... again after you click in the reply text box, hold down the "Down Arrow" key until the inserting cursor stops moving down the screen, before you being typing your reply.

Or... just be sure you click the mouse button with the mouse arrow well below the text that is being quoted.
 

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Chaps, for what its worth, the classification system used by Baldwin doesn't suggest locos of the same class are of the same design - just makes it harder for us! All the 10-22-E designation tells us is that the loco is a 2-8-0 with 14" diameter cylinders and nothing more...lots of locos of very different designs can share that classification.

According to Baldwin's class lists, there were some 31 different locomotive designs under the 10-22-E banner and a total of 112 locos built of the 10-22-E class (to 31 different designs). These different designs are listed by their drawing number - 'Drawing 1' of the 10-22-E class is the first design of this class dating to 1873, while 'Drawing 31' is the final design of the 10-22-E class, dating to 1926. While Drawing 31 of 1926 is the last new design of this class, the 10-22-E class is built through to 1937, with the final loco built being of an older Drawing 18 design. I know nothing about how different these 31 designs are - some will be totally different, while others will be simple upgrades of earlier designs.

The EBT 2-8-0s were of the 'Drawing 1' design. The OR&L locos of 1897 are a 'Drawing 7' design (of which many were built for several different lines), and the Unitah locos were a 'Drawing 16' design of 1904, which was also produced in numbers for several lines, mostly south of the boarder. Incidentally the first 'Drawing 1' loco was the D&RG 'Mosca', which went to the EBT, the first Drawing 7 version came out in 1892 for the Krajewski & Pesant of NY. (I know nothing about this line). The Drawing 16 version was first built for the Unitah in 1904.
Check the on-line drawing lists to see if there are any other 10-22-E drawings on the register (I've not checked) - you're looking for another of the Drawing 7 locos.

The class lists can be most useful in searching out sister locos to the ones we're interested in, and sometimes come up trumps. That said, these records are not perfect - but a darn good start! Class lists for virtually every Baldwin class are available from DeGolyer for very little $$.

Fun stuff,
David.
 

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I did a cursory check on the DeGolyer drawing lists and there are a load of 10-22-E drawings there, including the class leader of the Drawing 7 design for the Krajewski & Pesant...thats probably the drawing to get hold of if wanting to get a drawing of the design used for the OR&L 2-8-0s. As Pete noted, the drawing lists aren't perfect, and sometimes result in drawings of the loco labled for what we want, but bear no resemblance. Dono why. Maybe they were poorly labled back in the 1950s when rescued, or errors within Baldwin when archiving drawings, dono. I've usually asked for and got drawings that do resemble what I wanted. Also note that some drawings are errection cards, while others are 'Proposal drawings'. Proposals are far more detailed, but are of locos not yet built, while errection cards are the drawings used in building the locos. When the proposals are the same as the built versions, you get a very detailed drawing of what you want!

The Smithsonian also has a good collection of Baldwin drawings - so if DeGolyer cant help, then try them. Still DeGolyer do have at least one of the 'Drawing 7' locos on file, worth following up.


David.
 

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Jeff: Thanks for posting the info about this drawing collection and resource. Do you know how much a drawing costs, and how you can order it?

Thanks

Al
 

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Discussion Starter #17
David,

Where did you find the design drawing numbers? All I see are the four and five digit numbers on the class number lists. If drawing 7 equates to the outside frame design then I've got to get one! Pete's drawing that's thought to be EBT #5 appears close to the OR&L design but with an inside frame. I'm picking that one up from him as it's more than we have now.

Al,

I can't take credit for any posting regarding the DeGoyler Library collection. The Balwdin Locomotive Works records finding aid can be accessed at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/smu/00052/smu-00052.html . The cost is dependent on what you want or need and is in my opinion very reasonable.

Jeff Livigston
Kaneohe, Hawaii
 

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Hey Jeff,
The drawing number is not on the errection or proposal drawings although I wish they were!, that would make things a lot easier. No, the drawings available are the tracings for the specific RRs, taken from the basic Drawing designs. To establish what drawing number the various locos are, you need the class lists, which note which basic design every loco of the class were taken from. When the errection drawings dont reflect the design, then we cant trust what drawing number the design was based on, however the EBT #5 drawing notes it was also used for 10-22-E8 of 1883, which is a Drawing 3 loco for the Bahia e Minas line. Certainly the design is very much a Baldwin design of around 1880, not 1874. This design was used on a lot of RRs, in different classes (but with this look) in 1883 and the couple of years either side. Its probably a good look at the Drawing 3 version of the 10-22-E.

Thanks mate,
David.
 
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