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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone. I am rather new to this forum and new to the live steam hobby. I am not new to steam itself having worked on steam locomotives in one way or another over the past seven years. One of my other hobbies is drafting. I am self taught and some have said I am one of the best they have seen for my age and having never taken a lesson. I design my own railroad equipment. Many are one offs while others are based off a prototype and modified to my liking. Below is sort of a one off yet still based on a prototype. I call it a P-24. It is an outside frame 4-6-2 based on the lines of a K-28. Major differences are the removal of the #1 driver, the addition of a four wheel pilot, shorter rear truck and a four inch diam increase of the drivers. It is a dream of mine to build this very locomotive. I would like to build it in a larger scale but I figure that it will be simpiler and less expensive to build it in this scale. I can gain access to machine tooling and machinists to help me with the project but I believe I will have to rely on someone more skilled when it comes to the boiler. My question is is it a good idea for me to attempt this having never done anything like this before? Please look over the design and give me your opinion on it and your opinion of the project. Well time to go to work. Thanks in advance. Also sorry for the poor quality of the pictures.

-Eric

 

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Is it a good idea? Of course not; it's completely nuts. But don't let that stop you; you will learn a lot more than you ever imagined. And probably have an lot of fun, too. And make a bunch of new friends.

Go for it!!
 

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Since your starting point is basically a K-28, the first place I'd go looking for a boiler is Accucraft, there's always a chance they might have a spare one available from a parted-out engine. You might also want to try Torry Krutzke, who was doing coal-fired conversions of the Accucraft K-27. Those conversions involved an all-new boiler, so he might still have a few butane-fired K-27 boilers left over from those conversions. That's a nice-looking concept you have there, please keep us posted on your progress!
 

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Welcome, Eric , to the madhouse.

What a project you have set out for yourself - nothing like aiming high, eh? A locomotive like this in any scale is a challenge, but to build a working live-steam loco like this would be an amazing feat.

BTW - you write - 'I would like to build it in a larger scale but I figure that it will be simpiler and less expensive to build it in this scale.'

What scale do you call 'larger scale' and what scale do you call 'this scale'?

That could help us to help you a lot.

Please tell us more about your aims.

Best wishes

tac
http://www.ovgrs.org/

PS - if you get time, have look on youtube for the Accucraft K-27/28 in live steam loco in Fn3/1:20.3 - is that how you envisage your loco to look?
 

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Eric,
A outside frame Pacific. Neat idea. Don't know if I have ever come accross a prototype but it looks good. Looking at your drawings, I would investigate the use of a Roundhouse Lady Ann chasis or if you can find one a SRRL #24 chasis if you are building in !:20.3. Roundhouse also sells boilers. I am finding that this "scale" is about as costly as "larger scale".
What road do you work for in real life locomotive engineering?
N
 

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Hi Eric,
Since you are just starting out, I also suggest that you consider a Roundhouse Engineering chassis and/or boiler kit. I have one of their SR #24 2-6-2's that is a perfect performer, and is simple to work on and modify, as I am doing with mine. Check out the RH web site; the gang there is very friendly and helpful.
When the time comes for detail parts, remember Trackside Details. For miniature hex-head nuts and bolts, as well as 1/8" (actual size) pipe fittings and valves,as well as materials and tools, check Cole's Power Models site. Both are good suppliers of long standing.

Larry
 

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Eric

Some pretty amazing drawings. Looks like if you were to use the K28 parts the #4 driver woudl need to be removed and the chassis shortened and move the cylinders out further to allow the new pilot truck. Are you looking for some scale build or something that represents the locomotive? You mention the drivers are 4" short how perfect do you want it to be to these drawings?

Also did you start working on any drawings of frame, drivers and so fourth?

If you have the time and paople go for it. We have a resident boiler maker right around here so the boiler is no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ok to answer a few questions. 1) the scale friends and myself have invisioned for the distant future is 5" scale or 15in gauge. When I say distant future I mean DISTANT. "This scale" would be 1:20 2) The problem with using K-28 parts is that the P-24 is shorter in lenght then the K-28 and uses a smaller boiler. 3) the drivers are 48" in diam (4 inches larger then the K-28) and I would like to get as close as possible but if it turned out to be to much of a problem I could settle for 44in. Im not sure I understand what you mean by removing the #4 driver seeing how the main rod goes to the #3 axle on the K-28 and on the P-24 it goes to the #2 axle which would be the #3 axle on the modified design (I may be getting my numbering wrong but on the railroad we go from F end back with the axle numbering.) Noel you wont find a prototype for it that I know of. Its a one off. Also I work for New Jersey Transit. Commuter trains into and out of New York City. Also thank you all for the comments on the drawings. Jason I have not yet worked out drawings for the frame. I am having some problems figuring out the frame around the saddle.
 

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1) the scale friends and myself have invisioned for the distant future is 5" scale or 15in gauge. When I say distant future I mean DISTANT. "This scale" would be 1:20


If this is 1/20 and assuming you'll use 45mm track then 15" gauge would be 1/2.3 !!! I don't know which of both is easier. The 1/20 will be hard because lots of parts will be small, tiny screws etc. But the big one will be a **** of a job as it is just so much larger. You won't have tiny screws, but you won't be able to lift a lot of parts without help. I admire you're commitment to tackle such a job.
 

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I scratch built 10 K 27's in 1-20.3 scale and still have the drawings for the frames etc, I could supply you with a set, then you could see the frame arangment around the cylinders, I also have some castings left including part machined cylinders, contact me off group for details.
You can still see the original spec on my website and I can supply a set of details for the castings etc and prices.
David Bailey www.djbengineering.co.uk
 

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Eric - I just meant the location of the 1st driver on the K28 vs where the 1st driver on your is located. The K seems to be less than an inch from your drawings. The driver can be installed in any position so you can move the 3rd driver to the 2nd position for the correct placement and swap out the tires for a flanged set. Hmm What size are the K36 - K37 drivers??? Anyway either way you cut the cake new valve gear is needed as the cylinders woudl need to me mover foward if you remove the 4th set. I wonder if you lay out a centerpoint for the drivers and cylinder how they both line up. Also just gauging the size of the pilot truck ve the drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ok I'll post some specs on the locomotive. Keep in mind these are FULL SIZE measurements not scale measurements. The pilot truck wheels are 28" in diam with a 5' 6" wheel base. The drivers are 48" in diam with a 8' 10" wheel base. The rear truck wheel is 30" in diam and from the center of the rear driver to the center of the rear truck wheel is 8' (which is a foot shorter the the K-28). Total wheel base of the locomotive only is 25' 10" compared to the K-28s 28' 10" wheel base. The boiler is 63" in diam and is roughly 21.5' long without the smoke box which adds another 4.5'. Cylinders are 18x22 same as a K-28. Overall engine length (without tender) is roughly 30' 6" compared to the K-28s 36' 4" (roughly). The centerline of the boiler is 6' 7" from the railhead and at its tallest point (stack) stands 13' 4". I leave the tender out cause its nothing like the K-28s. It is only 20' long compared to the 28s which is over 24' in length. Now that all being said I think that the problem with using the K-27 or even the K-28 frame drawings is the fact that my locomotive has a four wheel pilot. The frame has to clear up above the lead truck wheels which causes the frame to go to a single rail above the truck. I do believe that I could just dip the frame itself under the saddle casting and bolt the casting to the frame from underneath. Of course in order to provide more strength I could add and bolt on frame member that goes over the top of the casting as wheel. What I really need are drawings of a locomotive frame that uses a four wheel pilot. Jason I understand what you meant now. Also K-36 and K-37s have 44" drivers.
 

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I glanced through my collection of Southern Ry. locomotive diagrams. I didn't find anything good enough to build a model from, but I got a general idea.

It seems that locomotives built with slide valves had a split frame. The rear portion held the drivers, rear truck, etc. The front portion was madein a "U" or "Y" shape, and went around the cylinder saddle, both above and below it. Some seem to have a separate piece which bolts over the top, but it's not possible to tell for sure, given the quality of the drawings. The joint between front and rear sections was just ahead of the front driver. In all, it looks like a natural extension of the simple two piece bar frames used on 4-4-0s in the mid 19th century.



On the other hand, locomotives with piston valves seem to have a much heavier single piece frame up front, diving below the saddle. I don't know if there was some reason why the piston valve saddle castings would not work with the earlier design. It may be that it simply became too akward to thread the pieces together as they got larger.

If you're interested, the entire collection of drawings can be found at http://southern.railfan.net/paper/steamloco.pdf It's a 7.2 MB file, so it may take a while to download. And of course, it deals with standard gauge locomotives, but I suspect that the designs would have been about the same.
 

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Of course, one major difference between Eric's theoretical narrow gauge Pacific and standard gauge Southern Railway practice is that Eric's concept has outside frames. I believe there were some outside-frame narrow-gauge 4-6-0's which could make a better comparison, although I'm not sure of specific prototypes off the top of my head.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well take into consideration that the outside frame of a narrow gauge locomotive and the frame of a standard gauge locomotive are about the same dimensions (K-37s were standard gauge locomotives just regauged). Using the drawings from a standard gauge frame would help me get an understanding on how the frame will be formed. Obviously I wouldn't use the dimensions off of the standard gauge drawings. The single larger bar dipped under the casting was how I figured it would be done. I know however on the K-28 frame from what I can see the break is between the rear driver and the rear truck with the rear frame member bolting on to the main frame just below the front of the firebox.
 

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There were also many examples of n.g. o.f. Baldwin 4-6-0's that ran in Mexico.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have books on the Oahu Railway & Land Co. which include many photos of the 4-6-0s owned by them. I never really thought to look at them. There may be a few problems. One both 4-6-0s have slide valves and are of a very early design. Much earlier then a K-28. The 85 (pictured in the link) is in pieces at the L&K.
 
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