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Posted By vsmith on 01/15/2009 8:49 AM
..and check every screw with the loc-tite bottle handy.

I sometimes wonder if the problem isnt bad design, because these products clearly are thought out very well, but the result of a couple just completely clueless workers on the assembly line, add in clueless QA inspectors who wouldnt know the heap of a difference between an eccentric rod and a Johnson lever! Someone familiar with trains would immediatly recognize a wrongly placed eccentric lever, but a barely literate assembly line worker making $5 a day who 3 months prior was pulling onions out of a field in central Mongolia, would have absolutely zero idea what they were assembling or why things should go a certain way, same for the QA people: if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, then it must be OK, right? Box it and ship it. We dont find out that our onion picker screwed the pooch until it reaches your doostep.



That's your second derogatory comment toward the Chinese. I personally find it offensive. China has a 93% literacy rate (as opposed to say Pakistan with a 54% rate.) I doubt seriously whether your average Real Estate Agent, Dental Hygienist, Legal Secretary could tell you "why things go a certain way" and correctly align a valve gear assembly.


This would be a better world if we could all eliminate stereotypical images of the peoples of other cultures.


End of mini-rant.


Mr. Smith if I have offended you with this post I apologize.
 

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Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 12:48 PM
Posted By vsmith on 01/15/2009 8:49 AM
..and check every screw with the loc-tite bottle handy.

I sometimes wonder if the problem isnt bad design, because these products clearly are thought out very well, but the result of a couple just completely clueless workers on the assembly line, add in clueless QA inspectors who wouldnt know the heap of a difference between an eccentric rod and a Johnson lever! Someone familiar with trains would immediatly recognize a wrongly placed eccentric lever, but a barely literate assembly line worker making $5 a day who 3 months prior was pulling onions out of a field in central Mongolia, would have absolutely zero idea what they were assembling or why things should go a certain way, same for the QA people: if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK, then it must be OK, right? Box it and ship it. We dont find out that our onion picker screwed the pooch until it reaches your doostep.



That's your second derogatory comment toward the Chinese. I personally find it offensive. China has a 93% literacy rate (as opposed to say Pakistan with a 54% rate.) You might as well call the workers "chinks." I doubt seriously whether your average Real Estate Agent, Dental Hygienist, Legal Secretary could tell you "why things go a certain way" and correctly align a valve gear assembly.


This would be a better world if we could all eliminate stereotypical images of the peoples of other cultures.


End of mini-rant.


Mr. Smith if I have offended you with this post I apologize.






No not offended, and No I'm not trying to denegrate the Chinese. Just pointing out a simople fact of life in these "New Economies" . The sad thruth is that most of the actuall in-the-trenches-assembly line workers in China are not from the best educated classes in their society, they are often quite literally just fallen off the turnip truck in the Big City looking for any work they can get. Its not like anyone intentionally comes to Quandoung Provence intent on assembling Bachmann locomotives now is it? They just want a job, any job and to them theres no difference between assebling a stereo or assembling a toy locomotive, same thing to them, just give me a steady paycheck.

Now depending on who they ended up working for, some get some very good training and are well prepared for the work they do, some start with simple tasks and are moved up the assembly line to more diffiicult tasks after they prove they are capable of doing so, but others are often just put on the line and expected to learn by doing. This is particular to companies who have very high outputs and cannot or will not devote the time needed to properly train amployees, they just accept a certain amount of faulty product as being the price of business. I dont how much training Kader assembly line workers get I suspect its more than most, but that doesnt preclude a newer less trained employee assembling something incorrectly, like I said, they simply just DONT realize they've assembled something incorrectly, you've got 4 guys each adding a certain part or assembling a certain group of parts, Bob puts the wheels into the frame, Mel adds the motor assembly, Joe assebles the left side valve gear, and hands it to Bill who assebles the right side valve gear but doesnt realize he's looking at the assembly diagram incorrectly and installs his one eccentric arm backwards but if it looks correct, and the QA people dont realize its incorrect because it still works on their testing bed and it gets shipped, no one is going to notice the mistake until some cigar-chomping guy looks at his sample and says " What the heck?"

Thats what I was trying to convey. No slam against the people but I do have reservations about there manufacturing processes.
 

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Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.
 

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Posted By SteveC on 01/15/2009 5:23 AM
"What I meant was, where in the site can someone easily find that information?"

The answer is, there isn't.

"Is it at the top of the forum lists in big bold type so you cannot miss it?"

Obviously not, since you've had to ask the question, and I doubt that there ever will be.

Since the functionality of which you speak, is not unique to this or any other web site. It is unique to the respective hardware and/or software utilized by any given individual accessing any given website.

This of course can encompass the whole range of the various main-frame computer hardware and software and the various terminal types connected to them. To the various brands and models within the brands of personal computers and the types and versions of software being used on them. Then there's the various keyboard layouts used for the many different languages found around the world, not to mention more than one hardware keyboard layout (e.g. 'QWERTY' & 'Dvorak' to mention but two.).

So to attempt to answer that type of question would be very inefficient and very likely confusing to many individuals. In the previous case you mentioned, I took a chance and answered Scot's query regarding the current subject at hand, because I was fairly sure of the computer hardware & software that he uses. Then again here in this topic when the same query was raised again, I again took a chance and provided the same answer hoping that it would prove useful. However, if the individual say uses a Mac type computer I don't have the faintest idea if that system has any keys labeled as I described. In your case, again I took the chance and lucked out it seems.

As an allegory, most all motor vehicles have windshield/screen wipers, but the manner that any given manufacturer chooses to implement turning them On & Off, or adjusting there speed varies from brand to brand, not to mention from model to model within a certain brand. Yet you don't find road signs placed along the highways and byways, informing individuals driving specific types of motor vehicles how to turn the wipers on or off, or the fine points of adjusting the speed at which they oscillate back and forth. Why? Because it's expected that it is incumbent on any and every individual that chooses to operate a motor vehicle. To learn the manner in which each of the devices they will need to safely operate the vehicle are controlled in that specific brand/model of vehicle.

As a possible solution for you and or anyone else happening to read this topic and finds that the information to be of help. Then I would suggest that all would create a shortcut/bookmark/Favorites link to this topic in you local browser and label it however you find best to remind yourself what it's for.

Since you chose to describe yourself as a "computer illiterates like me", then maybe a more efficient and less technologically based solution would be to take an appropriately sized piece of paper, copy the above instructions, (which you stated you found easy to follow and understand) to the piece of paper and tape them to the edge of your monitor where they'll be a ready reference for you by simply glancing at the note when needed.



Steve.
Thank you for such a detailed, if somewhat condescending, answer.
As I said. Thanks to you I now know how to do it.

My query was meant to be a suggestion that advice be given in plain view to those that do not know how to do it.
Computers can be daunting things for many people.
For those that find them easy to manipulate, many of us hold your abilities in awe.
I imagine for a man of your skills it would be quite simple to add something very obvious to the top of the forums saying, for example, "READ HERE BEFORE POSTING REPLIES WITH QUOTES". This would contain advice that laymen could understand. Especially those that have to use an easy way as most people cannot understand HTML code because they do not use it all the time.
Surely that couldn't be too difficult?
 

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A well-meant idea I'm sure, but experience has shown that, as a general rule, people don't read stuff like that. "The Rules" were posted at the top of the "Beginners Forum" before the changeover. Seemed like a logical place since one would think that would be the first forum hit by a new member, and it contained the sig guidelines, a link to how to post photos, etc. People still asked the same questions about how to post photos, initially used oversized sigs, etc.

After the changeover, something similar was instead placed at the top of the "Public Forum" - same issues.

FAQs existed on how to post photos on the new site (until the new RTE came along, when it was removed as no longer applicable). Many would still ask how to post photos.

Consequently, I can only conclude that people (or at least, many people) don't read stuff like that. :) It seems more effective to simply answer such questions as they come up.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Posted By Pete Thornton on 01/15/2009 8:00 AM
I'm sorry but before I will even consider buying one of these (and they are pretty lokies!) I want to know what Bachmann is going to do about this eccentric problem as well as the other things listed in the review on 1:20.me!


To get back to the topic... I've read several folk's posts on various websites about the loco, and none mentioned a problem with the eccentrics, or anything else for that matter. The reviewer unfortunately didn't finish the job, by ascertaining whether this was a universal problem affecting all engines shipped, or just a glitch on this one engine.

The readers, like Steve, are left with a bad impression of the manufacturer. I think that's bad for the hobby and bad for all of us - at some point Bachmann will stop trying to build us fabulous new locos [not sure where a mythical 2-6-6-2 fits in there,] or will put up their prices to cover the cost of extra QA.

If that's the only problem stopping you buy one, then inspect the loco in the store before you buy it.





Hey Pete,

I did glance over the Bmann Fora a min ago and did see some problems addressed and work on those issues...

Sierra Sound in 2-6-6-2
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7723.0.html

Phil Stump, is working on sound fix...pretty interesting discussion for those non-dcc sound users.

and Phil again on the drive train problem as mentioned in review:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7942.0.html

then Andre did post the review, almost in it's entirety asking the Bman to respond:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html

there is another sound/QSI question posed as well...with no answer:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html

Another wiring issue:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7932.0.html

Finally from "Across the pond" :
http://www.gscalemad.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=2614



Those first 5 are just from the Large start page on the Bmann forums, as to it being a universal problem...well only time will tell, but one really can't discount a review of a product just because only one subject was reviewed...I doubt any reviewer ever gets more than one unit to test?...heck even the video as provided by Bmann shows the problem (again as mentioned in the 1:20.me Blog review)


as a consumer with a very LTD budget, I want to know all I can about a prospective purchase..and if one gets a "bad impression" then decides to hold off on the purchase or not buy at all it may in the end save them some dough/headache/both?


An informed consumer is a powerful individual!

I look forward to the 2nd installment of the review as promised by Dan at the blog site.

cale
 

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You know, I've only been here about a week or so, and have had a good time looking for info, and not always finding it easily, but sooner or later it pops up. I have noticed a lot of threads getting...well...testy, and then going downhill from there; sort of like coming home to my first wife again.

I'm not complaining, I find it pretty funny actually; as I assume its all done tongue in cheek (I won't say which ones). Oh, and another really cool thing about the Chinese people I have had the pleasure to know, they are always open on holidays!
 

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Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 2:24 PM
Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.



My personal opinion is that it is the Political ethic (Communism) that is "rotten". Blended with the particular "feudalism" of their history (not much different than European feudalism) and, for any level of management, it becomes, "I'll get rich off of you while you work for the state."

Which is not all that much different than "Capitalism", except in the U.S. the background is "every man for himself first and his neighbor second especially when it looks like it might be in one's own self-interest". i.e.: The "State" exists for the individual's self-interest, instead of the other way round.


I have often wondered what the long term effect will be on a society that has a (comparatively) "low" standard of living after they have been hired (at low wages) to assemble what must seem an awful extravagance based on their standard of living. I think we all, as a species, tend to think only in terms of our local experience. We tend to see ourselves as "average" and our community as "average" and not really consider the world as a whole. We do not see very much farther than our own community.

So "they" see what "Americans" buy (the junk they have assembled) and have trouble understanding how this "other" society can live if they spend their wages on such trinkets. Surely these Americans must all be terribly rich to be able to afford these few thousand or so toy trains they just built. Remember, they may have come from a town of just a few thousand and what they built could supply one for each person in that town. From their experience, they just supplied the entire population of the U.S. with one each of this trinket. In their community, maybe only one or two people could afford to have one, so they marvel at everybody in the U.S. being able to afford one.

Of course, people in the U.S. come from all sorts of "standards of living", some of which would be considered below the average one in any other country, and not everybody can afford such extravagances as toy trains in the garden (and not everyone is even smart enough to want one!).

But their understanding of "our" society is not much different that our understanding of "their's". We tend to think of them based on the stories of children being drug out of the rice paddy to work in a sweat shop for 18 hours per day for just a cup of gruel to be shared amongst their extended family. That may be true, or partially true, or used to be true, or true in some particular place or some particular company, or it may be totally untrue, but it is the understanding of some and forms the opinions of others.
 

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Chinese communism is like a double stuffed Oreo cookie, a soft cushie rich and decadent filling surrounded by the thin veneer of a hard coarse impenitrable outer shell that disguises the true nature of those on the interior of the power structure.

Now back to our originally shceduled program...
 

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if it looks like its assembled right, runs back and forth on the test rollers OK,


I picked up my (much more expensive) EBT Mikado from Rich Yoder last week, and he made an emphatic point of showing me the slight wear on the pilot wheels, caused by his demanding running-in at the factory, and not, he insisted, for just 5 minutes. He's had experience.

Would mis-aligned eccentrics (or loose counterweights for that matter,) show up in 5 minutes?
 

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The eccentrics basically cannot slip, if you get the loco with them in the wrong place, they were assembled wrong at the factory.

Loose screws have been reported enough by the small number of people that have these that it's no longer a point of contention in my mind, something is wrong in the assembly process at the factory, left loose, not fully tightened, whatever, the bottom line is that whether they are loose in the box, or after 5 minutes, something is wrong.

I've never had an Aristo steamer with loose screws on the valve gear, and I've never heard of any problems out of the box. Sure, after hours of running people have had loose screws.

So, tighten them at the factory.

But this is all really academic, since the proof is there.

I'm concerned about the valve gear operation and want to see pictures that demonstrate the "interference" problem, as I will call it.

That problem could be a big one if some of the things I have heard through the grapevine are true.

Until then, .....

Regards, Greg
 

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I look forward to more factual reporting on this locomotove, especially from anyone that is running it now. While I think I understand the eccentric issues and am are still waiting for some clarification on whether a fix is required should you have the binding problem shown on 1:20.me. I'm looking at the engine as the basis for bashing into a tendered logging mallet version...versus the tank version.

It's the rear drawbar that has drawn my interest. If you look at the following photo, you'll note the drawbar is designed to extend rearward as the cab swings due to curves.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jl-RFo6VUnk/SWmIZsDvqZI/AAAAAAAABdY/POf_nosAxyU/s400/DSCN4251.JPG

That is why the lead end is forked...and it is the rearmost step in the drawbar that bears agains the engine that provides the pulling power.

My question has to do with this arrangement. I'd like to know how well this drawbar design performs when pulling cars. Does it bind at all...for if it does, it's sure to derail a drawbar connected tender...or put it on it's side. I concerned about the drawbar binding under load as it moves left to right (or right to left) when the engine enters a curve. As I have 8' diameter curves in my layout design...and one is on a 5' tall trestle. It's important to understand how well trailing cars would track on an 8' diameter curve. Can anyone provide info here?

As a sidenote, this is one reason why the Meyer design lost out against the Mallet and Garrett design....excessive cab swing. There is substantially more lateral acceleration in the cab (compared to Mallets) when the Meyer designed engines went through switches or entered sharp curves. All steamers have lurch...but the Meyer design had LURCH!!!. And, there were the additional HUGE issues regarding the steam line joints to two motor systems...as on the Mallet there was only one flexible joint for the front engine and none for the rear engine.
 

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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 01/16/2009 11:32 AM
It always scares me when someone does his homework!

Good points Mike!

Greg


Looks to me like that might also be true of Bachmann. Cale's link to Andre's posting of the second half of the Durango Dan article ( http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7940.0.html ) is no longer any good, yielding only the following message:

Warning! The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.

Nothing to see here folks.

Richard C.
 

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The phrase DAMAGE CONTROL comes to mind.

I wonder if there will be any more reviews of the Mallet at the 1:20.3me blog?
 

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Posted By CCSII on 01/15/2009 2:24 PM
Thank you for clarifying. I agree about their manufacturing process.


Having spent a little time in China I found the people to be open, warm, humorous, inquisitive, and always friendly which is something in a society that lives so close to the knife edge. We saw middle aged women manually laying a rock highway(8" x 8" chunks of granite, hewn from the mountain by hand, carried by hand, and laid by hand) base across a mountain pass. They were at were at work at 8:00 am when we went out and were still at work when we came back after 6:00 pm. Their energy and work ethic could not be faulted. Unfortunately it seems it is the middle management that seems rotten.


Yes! Nicely put. It's common for people to bash Chinese manufacturing as if there is something wrong with Chinese people. That's not what Vic was doing, but I appreciate you saying this. We had the same experience in China and I have a chinese made double bass that's a marvel of worksmanship and design. Thanks for posting that
 
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