G Scale Model Train Forum banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

lubricants for axles and side rods?

Jump to Latest
21 - 40 of 89 Posts
#21 ·
I've been using for many years the Green Velvet PB&J 220 and its also what I sell in a needle oiler and 8oz bottle. In the past I've used the turbine oil and 3/1 but they all flow all over and caused more wear then good never mind having to constantly clean the treads and wheels from the oil running all over everything. I also use steam oil to lubricate the crosshead and piston/valve rods as they have the higher heat being attached to the cylinders.
 
#22 ·
Kovacjr said:
I've been using for many years the Green Velvet PB&J 220 and its also what I sell in a needle oiler and 8oz bottle. In the past I've used the turbine oil and 3/1 but they all flow all over and caused more wear then good never mind having to constantly clean the treads and wheels from the oil running all over everything. I also use steam oil to lubricate the crosshead and piston/valve rods as they have the higher heat being attached to the cylinders.
Click to expand...
hee hee... that "PB&J" name has always made me chuckle... I remember an old "Dennis the Menace" comic where Dennis is down on the ground with his Lil' red wagon upside-down with one wheel off. In front of him is a small jar and lid to the side. He has some goopy stuff on one hand and is looking up at an adult standing over him. The caption is something like:

"I always grease my wheels with peanut butter."

I have often wondered what kind of lubricant Peanut Butter would be! Not that I am recommending anybody to try it.
 
#24 ·
Yea I know, couldn't he call it Journal, Pin & Bearing oil?

Though in all seriousness this is the only oil that the ride on guys that I know use. I waiting for someone to come out again and say to use bar oil or marvel mystery oil or something along those lines.
 
#26 ·
JEFF RUNGE said:
Break Free gun lubricant. " for rapid fire" (hi heat) "and stainless steel fire arms"
Perfect for our application.
Click to expand...
It is actually called BREAK FREE clp. Amazing stuff. The CLP stands for "Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative." Back in the 70's the U.S. military called for a new "Do all" product for weapons. I do not remember the company that came up with it but the DOD has been using it ever since. When it was first released it was a little thicker. After about 10 years the specs. changed for a thinner product. Not many people realize how good this stuff is for our small loco's.
 
#28 ·
It looks like the pre-1990's product was heavier bodied and smelled better, the change in formulation appears to make it much "thinner".... good for guns, but I would think heavier bodied is better for the looser fit of siderods and running gear.

Greg
 
#29 · (Edited)
Greg, and you have personal knowledge of the product? Not to get personal, but how many and how long have you been running live steamers?
Between the experience of two well known LS'ers and my own research of the product I think I'd rather go with that than
QUOTE "it looks like", "appears" and "I would think".
 
#30 ·
Why yes I do Nick, and I had some of the pre-1990's stuff also. Reading the reviews of the product, many long time users were disappointed with the new formulation. I think that this thread has also established that the higher viscosity lubricants are favored.

But, to each their own, there are people who have used low viscosity lubricants without a lot of wear.

My take is that the big variable here is the dirt/grit/dust that the locos have been exposed to is the largest variable.

By the way, the axles and side rods on large scale locos are really the same between sparkies and live steam.

Early on I espoused lightweight oil because of the perceived "gunk factor" of heavier oils (first experience was the running gear of many Bachmann locos), but then I found the lightweight oils seemed to "dry out", and that heavier oils protected better.

I migrated to the heavier oils and just "cleaned" the moving parts more often and inspected for dirt.

So, my experience is only based on about 20 years... so not to get personal Nick, you been running trains outdoors for 20 years? Have you experimented with about 40 lubricants. Just because I don't own live steamers now does not mean I don't have experience that counts.

Greg
 
#31 ·
One lubricant which might be worth trying is TW25B from Mil-Comm Products. I say this based on my 30 years in aerospace engineering as the project engineer for the turreted gun system used on the AH-1 Cobra helicopters. The three gun bolts which slide back and forth on tracks on the Gatling gun rotor had to be well lubricated to keep them from binding and jamming. Sadly, in severe dessert sand and dust conditions, the sand and dust would mix in with the grease and form a sludge which would badly wear the parts and eventually jam them. Some enterprising Marines discovered TW25B and bought some out of their own pockets. It's Teflon-based and can be applied in a very fine film which will not attract or hold sand and dust. TW25B worked very well and the military eventually approved its use in severe sand and dust environments.

Because there has been discussion in this thread about wear from grit trapped in lubricants, it brought TW25B to mind.

I've not yet tried using it on a loco, but think there may be some possibility of success. It will be several months before we have warm enough weather to get out steaming and give it a try. I would be inclined to use it on axles, valve gear eccentrics and valve gear parts. I'm inclined to use conventional heavy oil on the piston shaft and cross head guides.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Greg, If higher viscosity oils were better than lower viscosity oils with properties that have coating and adherence, then gear oil would be the best, but since it is too thick to penetrate and coat close tolerances it is useless.

I've been running inside for over 40 years and outside for 10 years and have tried many lubricants, All have had their plus and minus properties,

And YES, in my opinion, since you don't own and regularly run live steamers your OPINION doesn't come close to the experience of regular steamers. As I previously stated, live steamers are subject to water, steam and heat as well as just wear, so there is only a mild comparison between LS and Electrics.

I'm sure you will have a lengthly response, which I will respond to when I get back home from work.

Lyn, please keep us posted on your experience with it, thank you. And I will continue to use steam lube on the piston and valve rods.
 
#33 ·
I must say that I have enjoyed the dialog on this issue.

As a result, I have ordered two products through Amazon:

Break-free CLP
Break-Free Collector

The MSDS sheet indicates CLP contains PAOs (polyalphaolefins - synthetic oils) and Hydrotreated light paraffinic petroleum distillates (oil with paraffinic (mineral oil) content)

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00029/77486207-20100925.PDF

Anyhow, supposedly it:

Penetrates and spreads along metal surfaces into every pit and crevice to undercut contamination and lift residue away where it can be removed.
Long-lasting lubricating film dramatically reduces adhesion of sand, grit or other abrasives which cause wear and failure.
Corrosion inhibitors prevent the formation of rust while Break-Free's unique boundary film protects metal surfaces from moisture and other contaminants.
Specially formulated synthetic oils won't lose viscosity, dry out or stiffen up in extreme environments - such as cold, heat, dust, dirt, humidity and even salt air - keeping equipment in ready condition for months at a time.
It has been proven to perform in temperatures ranging from -65F to +475F and after saltwater immersion

How bad can it be?

The "Collector" version appears to be higher viscosity and meant for use when one puts firearms into storage, so to be used for lay-up periods perhaps in our case. The info on collector indicates it is 100% synthetic oil and contains no mineral oil.

There are over 300 reviews @ Amazon for the CLP version and they are pretty much all positive. Positive reviews for Collector as well.

My mini lathe and milling machines stand idle for longish periods of time and I figure these products will be good protectants for the Chinese cast iron and steel as well.

Cheers,

Joe
 
#34 ·
Joe,

I use CLP for slides and uppers on my firearms. its a good capillary oil for motion. One thing I do notice is that it is a runny oil and much more comes out then you need from its container, its useless for applying you need a good fine tip needle applicator.

Ill continue to use it but I will always use PJB from green velvet for my steamers. Its designed for non circulating lubrication and proven for 14 years now and I've been using it now since 2008.
 
#35 ·
Nick, I won't have a lengthy response, you have me confused with Kevin.

I don't find that all the valve gear has close tolerances, and I thought this thread was on valve gear and axles.

I don't find thin lubricants good for the journal type of axle bearings, but if your valve gear has close tolerances, yes a thinner oil would be good. But I have found that the "heavy gear oil" sold by various supply houses does indeed penetrate well.

But you have been running steam much longer than I have and do have superior experience there, although I'm not convinced that a thin lubricant withstands heat, water and steam better than a thick one.

Hopefully that was not too long of a response, and less combative than you expected.

Regards, Greg
 
#36 ·
Keep in mind that the rods and valve gear on a live steamer generally have closer tolerances than those on a sparky, and have greater forces acting on them, since they are actually doing the work. On a sparky they just have to go around and look nice and not bind up. Then there's the heat factor...
 
#37 ·
In my LS box I carry 4 hypodermic's. One large one for water (comes with all Accucraft loco's) and three small ones. One for sucking out the lubricator, one to apply steam oil to the cylinder and valve rods and another one to apply small amounts of lubricating oil on the parts that need them. The smaller are the ones that come with the printer ink recharge kits. The long metal tips help get into tight spaces so the oil only goes where I want it. And old T shirt rags to clean up when I slip and over oil something.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I have used Break Free CLP since it was first introduced in the 70's. The original formulation could get a little gummy in cold weather, but still worked the same.

The way we discovered how it worked for live steam was that my good friend John F. had just received his new Catatonk Climax. It was so tight that you could barely move anything on it. He had already tried what ever our oil of choice was back then, (Do not remember what it was) and it did nothing. I ran inside, grabbed my bottle of Break Free CLP (newer formulation), we lubed her up and off she went around my track.

You have to understand that in the firearm world a new "Super Oil" comes out about every 2 -3 years since Break Free was introduced. Names such as Tetra oil, Militec, Slip 2000, FP10, Weapon Shield, Rem oil, Rand oil, and now even Frog lube all stake their claims to be the best. I have tried just about every one of them.

With some of these the metal even needs to be prepped before us. While I have found that some of these may do one singular thing better then Break Free CLP, IMHO I wish I had saved all that money and just stuck with the Break Free CLP because overall I still think it is the best. I could have bought another Loco with that $.

But as we all know, many things will work on our Locos. You could even use bacon grease (that sure would smell good) if that makes you feel good. I am just giving you my experiences. Some of the best debates around here over the years have always been about Steam oil, gear oil, and what type of water to use. I always look forward to them.

If I could just get some of Zubi's water, all would be good. :)
 
#39 ·
Eric Schade believes his wear problems are due to using the incorrect oil. However, as David Leech stated, it may be the materials used that caused the wear. Was the bearing or the axle worn?

One manufacture advertises " Museum Quality, Brass Models". I have no clue as to what a museum quality locomotive is or if I need one. I buy and assemble engines to run on a outdoor track. As to the "all brass models", if they are using brass for bearings and axles these will quickly wear out. Brass is not a good bearing material. A cast bronze or phosphor bronze bearing is required for long life.

I have a lathe and a milling machine which both have gears enclosed in a oil bath.Many years ago, I did some research on the best oil to use. As with this thread, there was a lot of disagreement. Someone questioned if motor oil was a good choice. Someone replied that motor oil has additives such as detergents which is not good for "red metal" alloys, (bronze). The detergent has a leaching effect. The will wash away some of the alloying materials, (tin, lead, zinc).

I also found comments on using a heaver oil verses a light oil for moving parts and bearings. Someone wrote "heaver weight oils are not better then lighter weight oils as heaver oils stick to parts longer which degrades the oil faster than lighter oil. A lighter oil will flow better and flush out the old dirty oil where the thicker oil will retain the dirt and grit". I agree with this.

I use Mobil Velocite Oil No 10. This a high quality spindle oil, ISO VG 22, close to SAE 10w. Available from MSC in gallon size only. I have used this oil for years in my lathe, mill and steam engines.

Aster recommends using a "light machine oil" on moving parts, ( but NOT in the cylinders) I thing the Mobile No 10 meets this requirement. I have not found any wear on my equipment or engines.

Everyone has their own best oil as this thread has shown.

It appears that we all agree on one thing. Just about any oil is better than none at all!

One additional tip, Hoppe's No 9 works very good to remove dried oil from metal.
 
#40 ·
Regarding use of Hoppe's products...be very careful NOT to use the copper cleaning version of this...would be detrimental to bronze bearings and other copper bearing parts on the loco.

On a broader note, it occurs to me that we could garner some very important data from this discussion...provided folks are willing to discuss their "failures"....

In reality, if the proper lubricant is used on properly made bearing surfaces, there is no perceptible wear on the metal surfaces...this is because the lubricant provides a floating surface, remaining between the two metal surfaces This is the principle behind babbit bearings...certainly the babbit material is soft compared to other materials...yet it does not wear because the proper lubricant is in place.

Here is the part where I'd like to hear of failures....I'd like to hear postings from folks that have had extreme wear on their live steam locomotive...say for the axles and their bearings, or extreme wear for the valve gear. For the purposes of this question, we should limit answers to those who have had the wear while using one particular lubricant during the time that the wear occurred...this way we could dispense with discussion and evaluate actual results. While not exactly scientific, the anecdotal evidence provided by use of a particular substance that did not provide proper lubrication would be enough for me to avoid use of that product on my engines.

To make the discussion somewhat scientific, we should limit to folks that for the most part used one type of lubricant during the timeframe of the wear...it does no good to say "I got extreme wear" and then follow with "I used 5 different lubricants"....not much to be learned from that.

For instance, if someone told me that they used only WD-40 for lubricating their live steam locomotive axle bearings, and then they experienced extreme wear, then that would tell me to not use WD-40....I use this example as some years ago I ran into a fellow who had that exact experience. Now I would think that most of us know that WD-40 is NOT a proper lubricant and that the extreme wear would have been predictable, but it is just an example for clarification. More important to me is a comparison and discovery of failures resulting from what appear to be proper lubricants....

OK, who will first to tell of their failed lubricant experiences?.....
 
21 - 40 of 89 Posts
About this Discussion
88 Replies
29 Participants
Last post:
bobrstrong
G Scale Model Train Forum
posts
460K
members
32K
Since
2007
A forum community dedicated to G scale model train owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about collections, displays, models, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Live Steam General G Scale Discussions Beginner's Forum Model Making Track, Trestles, Bridges and Roadbed