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Running live steam indoors is not dangerous if you pay attention to what you are doing. I speak from 32 years first hand experience of running on Doug Pattman's basement 20'x45' track for a good 20 years, my own 18'x35' basement track for the last 20 years and Bill Bryants 30'x30' one in Toronto. We have run everything from Mamods up to Aster NYC Hudsons and Accucraft Royal Hudsons with no problems. In the unlikely case of a fire, a couple of buckets of water kept under the track have never been used, but the odd squirt from a squeeze bottle of water has been neccesary........the alcohol burns, not the baseboard or track, and because you are running in less light than outdoors you will see any fire immediately.......again, IF YOU ARE PAYING ATTENTION.
On alcohol fired engines, which have been 90% of our running, properly installed and trimmed wicks are essential for complete combustion and the ellimination of the horrid un-burned fuel smell that you come across sometimes on outside tracks. My experience of running two big Aster gassers at once in Doug's basement was that they could stink up the place, but in winter we always ran with a wood fire in the stove and a small window open, and in summer with windows at each side of the basement open........no problem at all. A couple of years back, James Ritson brought his coal-fired Castle up from Atlanta and we ran it here for a couple of hours on Welsh steam coal, the house was not smokey but the smell was wonderful!
In conclusion, absolutely no problem.........but you must pay attention, be a responsible adult and not act like a cretin.

David M-K
Ottawa
 
Posted By thumper on 30 Jan 2014 05:28 AM
POISON - since the alcohol we use is adulterated with a poison, what is the potential harm of breathing the vapors of the poison?

Just wondering.

Will
I can't answer your question Will, but I do know that the alcohol we use here is 99.9% pure which has not been, in your words, 'adulterated with a poison'.
I believe that like everything in life, you use common sense (here we go again!) and run trains in combination with some ventillation in your enclosed space. In my 32 years of running with other people on basement railways, I haven't come across anyone with any respiratory ailments or undue loopiness, in fact Doug Pattman used to run trains daily and eventually fell of his perch well into his 90s......after a career that saw him observing nuclear blasts in Australia and the Nevada desert, and one time being on a helicopter that landed at Ground Zero less than 30 minutes after the explosion.........!!!!!

David M-K
Ottawa
 
methanol- If there is adequate ventilation, alcohols burn to produce only water vapour and carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is only produced if there is not enough oxygen-supply for complete combustion.

So, if you breathes in the butane gas vapor that has accumulated as it is known to do: Inhalation of butane can cause euphoria, drowsiness, narcosis, asphyxia, cardiac arrhythmia, fluctuations in blood pressure, temporary memory loss ad will as H20 and carbon dioxide

Now, to my favor fuel, coal: coal combustion affects not only the human respiratory system, but also the cardiovascular and nervous system.

Bottomline, as DMK, good ventilation is key when using any of our live steam locomotives indoor no matter the fuel!!
 
Hi Charles,
I've made the mistake of using methanol in a rather large facility and I'm sure it had "adequate" ventilation....tell that to the kids who's eyes were burning....and the mother's eyes that were burning at me....Needless to say, I different spirit was used after that.....at least by me.

I've also seen some inexperienced steamers get themselves into trouble without understanding the properties of butane gas....at a Christmas show, many poinsettias were altered....there definitely wasn't much euphoria at the time...

My only funny coal story was running in hotel down in St. Louis when a bridal couple emerged to a rather large plume of smoke from the reception room....apparently the ventilation was inadequate for them.....clearly didn't appreciate what they were seeing...

Sam
 
Sam

We use racing fuel ($5 per gal)...on a side note: Methanol may be made from hydrocarbon or renewable resources, in particular natural gas and biomass respectively. It can also be synthesized from CO2 (carbon dioxide) and hydrogen
 
There are three basic forms of "pure Alcohol"; Ethanol, Methanol and Isopropanol. All of them are various combinations and quantities of Hydrogen, Oxygen and Carbon in different molecular chains, (as is common table sugar and corn syrup!). And all of the "alcohol" forms of these molecules are "poison" at some level of ingestion over time; some more so than others.

Ethanol is also known as "Grain Alcohol" and is derived from the fermentation (ethanol is a byproduct of bacterial growth!) of just about any fruit or grain. It is a very mild poison that the body can convert to fat or excreted rather quickly if ingested in small amounts and causes little or no damage. Larger amounts affect the nervous system, mostly temporarily and produces a mild euphoria that many people quite enjoy, but does cause some damage to the nervous system and the liver. Larger quantities produce loss of judgment which often leads to death because the intoxicated (note the route word is "Toxic") individual is at that point lacking in the intelligence to not attempt to drive a car while under the influence of the alcohol. Ingesting extremely large quantities leads to nervous system shut down and death. It is not easily absorbed into the body through the skin.

Methanol is similar to Ethanol, but is much more poisonous in even small quantities. It can be derived in several ways, including the fermentation of wood (hence its common name of "Wood Alcohol") or from the distillation of crude oil. When ingested, the body converts it to formaldehyde which destroys synapses, which, depending on the amount ingested, usually leads to blindness prior to the general shut down of the nervous system and death. It should be noted that it can be absorbed through the skin, thus skin contact IS dangerous.

Isopropanol is also derived from the distillation of crude oil (and some other sources). It does not get absorbed through the skin the way Methanol is, but it is still poisonous if taken internally.


Ethanol is mostly used as an ingestible drink as noted above and because of its intoxicant nature tends to make the person ingesting it to believe they are not being harmed by it... and that feeling of euphoria leads the user to desire more (that old "if it feels good, do it" thought). Due to its addictive nature, the government controls the production and sale of the intoxicant by taxing it at a very high rate (easy money!) and imposing severe penalties for attempting to avoid the tax.

Ethanol is also an excellent solvent, and in that role is often used to dissolve flakes of "Shellac" to produce a durable surface finish for wood furniture. But pure Ethanol is too expensive (due to the tax) to use for this purpose.

Methanol, being a poison is not taxed as heavily. It also can be used as a solvent, but it is not as good as Ethanol. Because it is poisonous and blends neatly with Ethanol (and it is hard to separate the two), most alcohol solvents are Ethanol "denatured" (made poisonous) with Methanol (and often other "solvents" that the manufacturer thinks improves the solvent properties) so it can be sold without the "drinking tax" applied and is thus cheaper. The exact proportions of the various components of any brand of "denatured alcohol" is treated as a Trade Secret, but the government has set a minimum percentage of Methanol in the mix to make the concoction non-drinkable/poisonous and thus avoid the tax.

Isopropanol is often mixed with glycerin as a skin emollient and other oils and sold as "rubbing alcohol". It is a solvent to cleanse the skin of oil, and when it evaporates it leaves the glycerin and other "cleaner" oils.



Complete combustion of Ethanol or Methanol produces only Carbon Dioxide and Water (CO2 and H2O). BUT, incomplete combustion can produce some level of Carbon Monoxide (CO) as well as leave some of the chains of the alcohol in the form of vapor in the exhaust. AND, depending on what else is in the alcohol, can produce some other vapors that might be very dangerous.


For me, I stay away from Methanol...

I noted that doctors swab your skin with "alcohol" to kill germs before giving you a shot. And you can buy "waterless" hand cleaners that are gelatin'd alcohol to clean and sanitize. I did not understand the differences or that Methanol can be absorbed through the skin and I made the mistake washing my hands too many times with "Denatured Alcohol" and as a result damaged my liver. I did not relate the use of "alcohol" to wash my hands with the pain in my gut. The Dorktor kept sending me to various labs for tests trying to prove I had hepatitis, but the results kept coming back negative (he made the mistake of making the diagnosis based on my generation and symptoms before testing was complete and then kept trying to prove his diagnosis... I got better in spite of his ego!). It took a while to achieve the correct diagnosis, but by then I was better and apparently have not suffered great damage and over time the liver might repair itself (if I don't die of old age first).


Relevant to the question posed by Thumper in this thread... I also had an "event" when firing my Mike and using "Sunnyside" alcohol from True Value Hardware (also sold at other places). It has more adulterants than other brands (and supposedly is a better solvent). I was leaning over my loco doing the traditional "oiling around" while steam was building and got a heavy whiff of the exhaust of the engine. If it weren't for a lawn chair that I had taken out there with me I doubt if I would have made it to the house before being on the ground. I sat in that chair for a long time before I could get up to shut the fire off and put everything away. I didn't get to run that day.


I now use S-L-X brand of alcohol from Home Depot (and other places) because it has less of the additional solvents than the other brands (at least it used to). The odor of it is not nearly as bad as the Sunnyside brand, but I am not about to go take a good deep breath of it to find out if it will knock me down. I have read that the governmental regulations are slowly forcing the various brands of "Denatured Alcohol" to use similar proportions and I have not bought S-L-X recently to know if it now stinks as bad as the Sunnyside brand.

Regardless, I am very careful about breathing the vapors from my engine...

But it should be noted that many people burn "Sterno" (which is basically unflavored gelatin reconstituted with Denatured Alcohol) under a Chaffing dish when serving elegant dinners or making Fondue and nobody seems to be the worse for wear. Granted those burners are pretty much open for complete combustion and are not "forced" via a draft so there SHOULD BE fewer unburnt or incomplete burnt byproducts in the exhaust. Note also that people burn butane in "candles" on the dinner table and plumbers often use a propane or butane torch in confined spaces for short periods of time with no (presently known) untoward effects.

I think there is a higher probability that you will burn your house down when running a live steamer indoors than being harmed from the fumes, but that uncommon form of intelligence known a "common sense" should prevail when you are playing with trains, whether indoors or out.
 
I made the mistake, recently, of running my Pannier on Methanol, (boiling point 69 degrees C), rather than on denatured Ethanol, (boiling point somewhere near 78 degrees C). The Pannier, being a tank loco, has the fuel tank on board, behind the boiler. Even though I had several layers of insulation in front of the fuel tank, when the Methanol in the fuel tank boils, all bets are off. I had flames shooting everywhere.

At DH this year I ran the Pannier on the provided Denatured Ethanol, without incident. I did keep my fire extinguisher handy. No more Meths for the Pannier!
 
DM-K made a specific point;

FOR ALCOHOL... properly trimmed and adjusted wicks are essential for complete combustion of the fuel. In my opinion MOST people do not REGULARLY mess with the wicks on their locomotives as long as they continue to raise "adequate" steam. This leads to less than optimum performance. I am to be counted among the guilty on this count.
 
I find all of this so amusing. In most of these posts we learn:
Most have done stupid things when steaming while trying their best to be responsible.
The fuels that run our Loco's give off poisonous fumes.
These fumes can accumulate and down near knock you out.
You can barely even see a alcohol fire, and no matter what it's make up is it burns.
Butane can ball up and then turn into a fire ball.
Alcohol wicks that are not maintained make fumes worse and can leak alcohol under Loco.
Admittance that no one (Me either) maintains said wicks as often as should be done.
I could go on, but instead I will just say Etc., Etc., Etc., and.......Etc., again.
Then add that none of us are getting any younger: Forget things, harder to carry things, harder to bend over, etc.
SO, all I can say is ................................
THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO IS TO RUN YOUR LIVE STEAM LOCO'S OUTSIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES, THAT IS THE RESPONSIBLE WAY TO DO IT !!!!!!!!! Now go ahead and keep justifying that running Live steam indoors
is responsible. I hate to sound like a jerk but it is fun to keep reading how you all keep making my point and do
not realize it. I just hope that you all stay LUCKY while running indoors. Because you have not been Responsible, you have
been lucky.
 
Steve,
Whether inside or out, you bring up a good point.
Yes, we are getting older.
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam.
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.
Yes Jim, we need more Nanny State here.
Or as I keep saying, play safe and have a word with yourself BEFORE you do things.
All the best,
David Leech, Delta, Canada
 
Hi, I am new to this forum, and to live steam, but here is my experience on this subject. I have been running my layout in the basement for almost a year. I take a few precautions: never leave a locomotive fired and not supervised; I keep a bucket full of water in an accessible place; I don't leave any inflammable materials such as oil or fuel or paper on the layout table. I had no problem so far (fingers crossed). I know this doesn't prove that there is no danger, only that the probability of accidents can be minimised. I installed a Summerfield Chuffer and it did wonders in keeping the locomotive and the layout clean. But of course it dribbles oil on the track, which I clean every now and then. Happy steaming.

Hussein
 
Butane is more fun if you get your face closer:

Image


(That ain't ME. I don't own a butane burner!)

I was just very "lucky" to get that shot, but not as lucky as ... (well... I won't say the name and he is blurred enough in motion that nobody will recognize him!) was in not even losing a single eyebrow hair... but it was "close".

I was just snapping photos when, what looked like a small flame went up from the open smokebox door of a modified Ruby. The digital camera is more sensitive to the infrared than the human eye, so the flame appears a bit worse that it looked in reality. What I saw was a pale blue fast swirling ball of fire that was gone in a few milliseconds, but the photo makes it look almost thermonuclear!
 
I've been watching this from the sidelines for a while, and while I have little more than another opinion to add, I'd like to put my two cents' worth in before folks start seriously flaming one another (pun intended):

Many decades ago, I was fortunate enough to serve as a fireman on a full sized, oil-fired Shay. Safety is inarguably Priority One -- not just the crew's safety, but that of the public who you're transporting or who may be in the area. That even applies to the idiots who bolt out of the woods and on to the track "to see the train go by". By extension, this responsibility extends to those of us who are running our (little) live steamers in public or in our private homes, where our actions can affect others.

In that vein, one of the very first things I was told as a trainee fireman was to **never** leave the engine standing unattended. In my opinion, this is a requirement regardless of scale.


Working around steamers of all sizes doesn't require any extraordinary effort, just planning, care and common sense. I'd also strongly recommend that anyone new to live steam learn about firing and running from someone with more experience, if possible; it's nice to have a forum like this one to answer beginners' questions, but it's not really a substitute for watching more experienced practitioners.

I've run live steam on my basement layout for several years now, with no mishaps or issues. Proper ventilation is an absolute must -- not because you're in danger of asphyxiating yourself, it just cuts down on the butane-and-steam-oil smell that, for some odd reason, my wife finds less than attractive.
 
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam.
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much.
 
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Feb 2014 08:30 AM
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam.
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much.
AMEN to that!
Image
 
My Gosh. Now this thread has turned into a Big Brother is watching thread. Anyone that knows me personally (And, Plenty on MLS do) know that I am: Totally Conservative, Can't stand government intrusion, Pro capitalism, Pro second Amendment, Pro strong Military, (Peace through strength) Pro Life, and Pro everything else that liberals hate. Taking all of the above post's into consideration I am now going to act like a Liberal and change my position so that I can appeal to the masses. If you want to run Live Steam indoors I hope you have fun while doing it. By admitting that I almost burned my garage down once also shows that I do not mind using myself as an example (Shows how stupid I was) in hopes that none of my friends here on MLS do the same. Now I am sure that there are those here who do not know me personally and have already formed an opinion and think I am a jerk because my Conservative beliefs come through many times in my post's here. That's OK, unlike our liberal media.......I think that all sides should be shown. Anyway, I do no longer care how or where you run your engines. Even if on the top of your head, just be careful while doing it. It seems like I read way to often here on MLS about another train enthusiast passing away. It always saddens me. The young folks now are way too busy with their electronic gadgets and games to give a hoot about our hobby. We are thinning out, so.......... Be Safe, and...God Bless Ronald Reagan.
 
Posted By Gary Armitstead on 01 Feb 2014 08:49 AM
Posted By Dwight Ennis on 01 Feb 2014 08:30 AM
To save us from burning ourselves or our homes, perhaps we need a federally mandated maximum age at which we can run live steam.
Or perhaps an annually renewable drivers licence to go along with the annual boiler certificate.I have far more than enough government intrusion in my life already, thank you very much.
AMEN to that!
Image


Grab a hold of the reins lads, didn't you see David Leech's tongue firmly in cheek? What happened, did some of you have your sense of humour surgically removed or something ;-)) ?
David M-K
Ottawa
 
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