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With all due respect, I don't see how a video shows that you have overcome the age-old problem to handle the expansion and contraction of rail and ties.

Rail and ties move in the prototype due to the laws of physics... your rails and ties will attempt to move likewise.

What were the details on how the track was secured?

Greg

hint: proof might be showing the track alignment at 90 degrees and at freezing.
 
Cool footage Ralph, what a lot of work you've done. Love the abrupt ending!


I'm waiting for you to cover Ohm's law. In case you've forgotten, that's when, after all attempts have failed, ya sit on your bum, hold your thumbs to your forefinger tips, and start making noises like "Ooooohhhmmmm....". With practice, and sufficient trackage, you can get bubbles to come out of your mouth.

As for Law #25, yeah, it's hard to secure track without securing it... Love your humor... But like Greg asks, how ARE you securing it? Or maybe you've already covered that in a past post?
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Mr Elmassian....

It is always amazing to me the amount that you do not read... "M1.6x25mm twist thread nails ". Yes every sleeper is nailed down at the ends and the rails gapped at 1.5mm and trimmed square with a diamond cutting disc. The track work was assembled at circa 27 to 32 Degrees Centigrade (an abnormally high temperature for the UK). Typical winter temperatures in the Peak district are -10 to -18 Degrees Centigrade thus giving a temperature swing of 50 Degrees Centigrade (rather more than the 32 Degrees Centigrade you specified). So far it has been subjected to 35mm of rain over 14 days. Yesterday I had it "looked at" by a member of Railtrak who announced it was "a good piece of track". As to moving like the original, most of the "Midland Mainline", some of the "West Coast Mainline" and all of "HS1" are made on the continuous welded rail (in 150m lengths) and continuous concrete slab process. Under the current planning "HS2" will use the same system. This means that there is no ballast and the rail is held to the concrete slab by "Panderol" clips i.e it does not move. This enables locos to move along it at speeds of 200kph and 280kph in the case of HS1.

I live in the UK on the 57th degree north line, slightly east of The Meridian and 8 time zones away -not in California in the USA.

This is Gauge '3' railway thus we do things DIFFERENTLY like; raised trackwork, plastic fishplates. no ballast, no track power, brass rail, white metal chairs pinned to wood sleepers. I could go on...

But I have finished building it in the manner that works for UK conditions...

Goodbye.
 
Ralph, did you calculate the linear expansion amount in the brass rail after analysis of the alloy for the temperature extremes of your local environment with a safety margin for possible climatic anomalies or... did you just take a wild funky guess?
Image


Andrew
 
Can you kindly point out where it says that every sleeper (which means tie) is nailed down at the end? Previous to your post that starts with an insult of 26 august at 8:54 pm.

I read twist thread nails... it could say aardvarks frozen in liquid nitrogen, but still no mention of how often it is attached.

Reading your post above seems to imply that "sleeper" means a section of track, unless you mean what you said literally, which is every tie.

So, despite the insult, I'd still like to know.

Greg

p.s given your knowledge of physics, you are telling me that the coefficient of expansion of a slab of concrete is the same as steel?
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
Andrew,

Yes, I did a practical experiment -I put 10 lengths of G3 brass rail and measured their length at -18 Degrees Centigrade (I have a 3 large 4* chest freezers) the average cooled length was 912mm. The length of the hot track when plunged into a bath of hot water at 40 Degrees Centigrade the average hot length was 916.5. The normal length is 915mm. Therefore I used a gap of 1.5mm in the fishplates. The length of the fishplates is 20.25mm.

regards

ralph

Mr Elmassian,

If you have read the thread, you will have noticed the picture below....

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10.jpg

There in the open pages of the book, (Henry Greenly Model Railways 1922), you will see a chair screwed directly to the decking... I have, as I have stated, used twist thread nails, (as used to secure roofing slates to the roof laths), one in each end of each individual sleeper or tie -if you prefer to call it that. They were driven through 1.5mm holes also drilled into the end of each sleeper This involved circa 0.5 Kilogrammes of nails. If you care to read elsewhere you will remember that the "Design Consultant" for the benchwork is a commercial roofer. Commercially available G'3' sleepers (such as those from Cliff Barker) have the hole tubes moulded into the underside of the sleeper along with a central one for "stud contact".

www.cliffbarker.talktalk.net/gauge3products.html

As to the last "question" I do not have to tell you that the co-efficient of expansion of rail is the same as the concrete slab -because as we ALL know there are slip expansion joints at the end of each 150metre length. This accounts for both seasonal variation in rail and trackbed. The concrete track on the WCML and the MML has been down since the mid 1960's. After 50 years it seems to be holding up well...

No, the question you should really be asking is: "Why do I feel the need to ask questions like this?"

Goodbye.
 
I figured you would have done something like that Ralph.
Image
So you are prepared for a 40°C heat wave in England (38.5°C 10 August, 2003) and a big 4.5mm wheel gudunk next winter. I'm a bit worried about the rose thorns scratching the trains though.
Image


Andrew
 
Mr. Brades:

I have a 24" monitor, in 1920 x 1200 resolution.

I blew up that picture and cannot see a screw through each tie to the decking, and I challenge anyone else to see it: www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10.jpg .

What an obscure and lame way to try to chastise me for not knowing you put screws in every tie.

I did not ask about the twist thread nor the credentials of a roofer, all I asked is how you secured the track to your decks.

A simple answer of "I nailed each one in 2 places" would have been fine, and civil.

I don't need to ask myself why I ask questions, others had the same question, and actually it was Semper that asked the question FIRST about how you handled expansion.

You really want to go to all this effort to try to embarass me? Son, karma has a bank account for you.

I wish you well, but I do suggest you try to eliminate the kinks apparent in your video at each rail joint.

Greg

p.s. you claim your rail does not move (26 aug 8:54) , but then you claim there are slip joints every 150 meters (27 aug 3:16am). If it does not move, then what are the slip joints for?
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Mr Elmassian.....

I believe you live in California, on the Pacific coast in a $3 million house and that you are VP of a Computer company...

Quote:
If it does not move, then what are the slip joints for?
Unquote:

They are there for the same reason that the gas mains and power supply routing are duplicated at right angles in several parts of California. This is due to the fact that the ground moves... In the case of the Midland Mainline and parts of the West Coast Mainline this is due to the amount of water absorbsion into the underlying clay and limestone. There are (also in California) mild earth tremors some approaching 0.25Richter -sometimes on an hourly basis. This is the primary reason why the University of Nottingham hosts the UK geological survey.

As to the problems with your monitor maybe this will help. My son (aged 13) did it for you on his HTC "Wildfire" phone running Android and a free "app". I admit he has uploaded it to the wrong part of the server -but he used the address he knew.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabba...pic10a.jpg

As to going to "all this effort to embarrass you" -I am not... I don't have any need to.

Goodbye.
 
OK, so a DIFFERENT picture, at much higher resolution.... NOT the same picture referenced above... so this is my fault? I don't have any problems with my monitor, but this is of course another attempted insult.

This picture still does not show what you claim, fixing the ties to the baseboard.... it shows the chair fixed to the tie. No view of tie to baseboard and x-ray view showing the penetration.

For those who really care to learn about what how/why to fix the ties to something:

The never ending "debates" on how to control/fix G scale track normally revolve around the ties fixed or floating. Some revolves by allowing the rail to slip in the "spikes". Depending on the environment, different things may work, but 10 years ago, the philosophy was to try to control the laws of physics and lock every tie down. It did not work for most people. The next step was to try to eliminate all fixing between the ties and the rail, to allow things to "equalize", this failed also. When people started really understanding how the prototype railroads did it, they realized that the ties and the ballast worked together to spread the movement from expansion and contraction fairly equally, but the ties DID move.

Later tracklaying to a completely solid base of a different expansion rate called for other measures that is true. The rail HAD to move in the fastenings, since the ties/base could not move in the same way. Thus things like Pandrol clips, and slip joints. But the rail indeed must move.

My questions were simple and non-confrontive. I really wanted to know how you did it, since you analyze these kind of things in depth, and you also seem to do things differently. I thought I might learn something new.

Unfortunately, the responses continue to show that despite all the insults, references to an expensive house (who cares), and other allegations, that until the question was asked, no one knew you fixed EVERY tie to the baseboard.

By the way: you still have an error in your presentation, this picture shows what appears to be 2 screws fastening the chair to the tie. If this is what you copied, then you have FOUR fastenings per tie, not TWO as you stated.

Based on that error, I'll just assume that the photos you are showing really have nothing but historical significance. I would have really liked to see a closeup of the track, since I cannot even get a straight answer about the fixing of the ties/track to the baseboard at least the picture would give the story.

Done here, refer to the famous quote of Cyrus Ching.

Greg
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
Mr Elmassian....

Obviously you are going out of your way to be totally obstructive... Please read what has been written.

quote:
every sleeper is nailed down at the ends and the rails gapped at 1.5mm
unquote:

quote:
The white metal chairs secured to the sleepers with brass pins and it is all screwed to the decking with decking clouts (equivalent!)
unquote

There are TWO pins per chair and TWO decking clouts (spiral twist nails) this gives a total of; two 915mm lengths of brass rail, twenty four "creosoted" Mahogany sleepers, forty eight white metal chairs, ninety six brass pins, forty eight spiral twist nails per piece of track. If you study the images below 2.2Mb and 5.5mb respectively you will see that there are two brass pins holding the chair EXACTLY as in the book.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/100_1648.JPG
www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cabbagep/100_1649.JPG

The stuff in the photo 100_1648.JPG was simply a couple of scrap lengths from the "bits box". The upper one showing the classically made "Greenly" track and the lower the commercial "Cliff Barker" slide on sleeper system.

The main problem is that you are American whilst I am African. Here in the UK ÂŁ2.1 million pound houses are given free to Somali refugees to live in. That gives you some idea of the respective differences in how we live. The ethos is different too. As to quotes I have always preferred Sun TsĹ­... However I must admit that this one is one is simply superb:

quote:
Greg -stop being a Greg.
unquote:

Goodbye.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
Thomas!!!!

I have spent about 5 minutes corpsed on the floor because of that comment!!! I will forever now see Greg Elmassian as a troll. I always cringed at the comments Sheila used to make as she sharpened her pencil with "Hugo" on the end of it for her case notes!!!

regards

ralph
 
An old but perhaps apropos joke -
A wife asks her husband, a computer programmer; "Could you please go to the store for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6!"

A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk.

The wife asks him, "Why the **** did you buy 6 cartons of milk?"

He replied, "They had eggs."

p.s. I'm a programmer and I get the joke!
 
Now, now Greg / Ralph. [please, let's quit this Mr. Brades, Mr. Elmaissian b--****. Can't we all just get along?]
Remember the "Golden Rule" of outdoor large scale model trains and track building...what works flawlessly at your house....IS WHAT WORKS AT YOUR HOUSE.
I have been to layouts down here in the southern US where the track has been cemented down Solid, [f--kin' solid as Gibraltar], as in with CEMENT, asphalt, and other bonding agents in the ballast, with only minimal expansion joints or room for track to move under BROAD thermal variations . Theory says this should cause untold damage, incessant heartache, and constant sorrow. YET...in practice...I've seen that was not the case. I personally believe in free floating track that can move and morph all over the place....but that's just; WHAT WORKS AT MY HOUSE.

Go for it Ralph!! We're enjoying your raised track efforts and lovely photos from the UK and look forward to reading about your results. If you have expansion issues...I feel most confident you'll be able to rectify those when and if they appear.

"Model Railroading is Fun!"

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
26: P, S, and Tau orbital shells.

I have (so far) only used The Gauge '3' Society supplied White metal chairs brass rail and Brandbright supplied Mahogany sleepers. But as you can see in the photos above there are a number of commercial suppliers; Brandbright, Cliff Barker and Garden Railway Specialists (who term their products G64). I am now retired and I have to admit that my fingers are not what they used to be. The times of playing "Classical Gas" are now past and it is more "The Dodo's Dreams" that I play!!! So I have been investigating the commercial products. It has been great fun and very instructive to make track in the typical 1920's fashion. The picture below shows the guiding example of classical Henry Greenly style track with a chair and the rail locked to the chair with a wooden wedge.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic10a.jpg

These are still (amazingly) available from specialist suppliers -but I found that cast iron was far too brittle for "abilities" with a hammer... So I went for the softer white metal chair and (as instructed by the book) rigidly locked the chair to the rail by "punching" the cast in wedge on the outside of the chair to the rail. It took two hours to make one length of track.... Another thing to look at is the cost of the white metal chairs etc has gone up since I last bought any this would bring the cost of making "Greenly" track to ÂŁ6.24p in white metal chairs as opposed to ÂŁ5.32p with Cliff Barker slide on plastic sleepers. and since I am going to need at least 30 lengths of track the cost differences and the speed of construction are persuasive. I used up my last packet of 100 white metal chairs and to be honest I am not happy with how it looks.

www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic63.jpg
www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/constructionpic64.jpg

It could be that I am now way out of practice but I have to admit that diabetes is affecting the feeling in my fingers and there isn't enough "feedback" from the pin push and toffee hammer to gauge impacts.

regards

ralph
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Mail Daemon is busy today!!!

Right I have had a number of questions -so I will answer them all here (hopefully).

Gauge '3' is NOT G Scale. The term G Scale is normally used to define trains running on 45mm track and no fixed scale. Whilst Gauge '1' is normally 1:32 scale Modern Gauge '3' is 1:22.6 scale (1foot =13.5mm) although pre WW2 it was sometimes called 1/2 inch scale and some elderly plans and models do correspond to this..

There is some (justifiable) confusion as to the track width. Here in the UK Gauge '3' track is 63.5mm wide and gauge widened to 64.5mm on the corners. GRS sell their Gauge '3' products under the G64 banner. Confusingly the largest european group are Das Spur II GrĂĽppe (The Scale 2 Association) who run any scale loco on 64mm gauge track.

I personally use brass Bullhead profile rail as supplied by the Gauge '3' Society of code 250, the same profile is commercially available in stainless steel. The reason is I think that brass looks more 1920's, (a personal viewpoint), a plus is that fact that it can be silver soldered or bent quite easily in folding machine for the construction of Frogs, Wing Rails, Southern Railways signals and Buffer stops. Vignoles profile rail is available in brass, (there are rumours it may be available soon in stainless steel).

The code of rail used varies between 250 (Bullhead) and 330 (Vignoles).

What is the difference between Gauge '3' Society (G3S) and the National 2.5inch Gauge Association (N2.5GA)... Errrm Oh Boy is this dangerous!!! The G3S is an offshoot of the N2.5GA and most people have memberships in both, infact the current Chairman of the G3S is an active member of the N2.5GA. To put it simply G3 uses scale locomotives pulling scale stock in scale surroundings. The N2.5GA are locos built to any scale that pull a person around normally on a trolley with stirrups on a track gauge of 2.5 inches (63.5mm). The track is commonly vertical steel strip at Model Engineering Society layouts although the same brass Bullhead rail is used by both G3S and N2.5GA (at home) it is that tough . Could any of my G3 locos pull a passenger -I don't think so!!! It could be said that Gauge '3' is the largest Scenic scale and the smallest Model Engineering scale. Parts used in the construction of G3S locos are often sourced from the N2.5GA castings range -the cast iron wheels section especially. Although a lathe and a mill are not really needed they are however very useful in G3 loco construction and would be classed as essential in a N2.5GA loco build.

How common is it? Well I have to say that orthodontic braces for hens are more common!!! When I started out it could be said that the nearest Gauge '3' layout to me was in Leicestershireshire. Now there are two in Derbyshire -mine being the second....

How expensive is it? Track work is always expensive (circa ÂŁ10 per length). There are few commercial suppliers of locos, GRS and Kingscale being notable. Most of the locos are hand built as are the rolling stock (from kits) and most of the plans are "classical" steam era stuff. There are some plans for modern Diesels and Electrics but they are few in number. So yes -it is expensive but still do-able under my ÂŁ10 per week budget. There is also a lot of "We are waiting for stock to be made" so you need a good dollop of Zen....

I hope this has helped.

regards

ralph
 
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