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Merits of LGB vs. Massoth digital control?

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BigRedOne

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello. I'm curious about how to best go about a digitally-controlled G scale layout. I have some familarity with Marklin digital, but LGB's literature (catalog, website) doesn't seem to offer the same level of explanation regarding the system's (MTS) capabilities.

I'd like to be able to run at least six trains concurrantly, of which three or four would be large; including illumination for passanger cars, and track functions such as switches and sginals. My Marklin system seems to lose the ability to drive switches once about eight trains are running. One question I have is the capacity of the LGB central control and power supply, or whether I'd be better off with Massoth's 12 amp system? (Or something else?) I measured my LGB starter set train at 0.7 - 0.8 amps; I then put some books on the train to simulate a heavier load, and it read right at 1.0 amp. Figuring the dual-motor locomotives are double the currant draw, I think the LGB digital central station, which is rated at five amps, will be insufficient by half.

I hope to have some automation, such as a train stopping at a station or waiting for one to clear a track section, without having to use insulated blocks which lose illumination and sound. It would be ideal if I could power extras like illumination in buildings too, as I want to avoid wiring if possible, so that I can reconfigure the track readily.

As much as possible, I prefer to use "plug and play" technologies, and to have the highest level of ease-of-use and reliability, as well as flexibility and expandability for the future. The track is on the floor at the moment, and I'm leaning toward leaving it there for the time being.

Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
Big Red:
If you are planning to run six or more trains concurrently, you would most likely need a DCC system capable of at least 10 Amps throughput. You can get that from either an LGB MTIII 5-Amp system with a 5-Amp LGB booster, or a Massoth 12-Amp DiMAX system.

When you include everything you need for wireless operation, the MTSIII system would cost you about $1075 compared to $1495 for the Massoth DiMAX system, a $420 difference in favor of LGB. But, you get a lot of additional features from Massoth for that $420: including one of the best DCC controllers on the market (the Massoth Navigator), two-way wired and wireless communication between central station and Navigator, lots of operating status information on display, a programming track, a USB interface for PC communication and control, automatic operations without additional hardware, all hardware firmware upgradable, multiple programming options including POM (programming on main), etc.

In my-not-so-humble opinion
Image
, The Massoth DiMAX system may in fact be the most technologically sophisticated DCC system around.

Mohammed

http://www.allaboutlgb.com
http://www.massothusa.com
 
#4 ·
What was not said about the LGB system is the capability of the 4 different LGB systems.

MTS I the oldest 14 speed steps only, no switches, only 8 addresses and serial only commands.

MTS II, 14 speed steps only, but a few more addresses, original serial only.

MTS II with P for Parallel Same as above, 22 addresses and parallel commands.

MTS III the latest being sold, 14 speed steps only (Unless you get the Massoth Navigator to get 28 speed steps

ALl of these only had 5 amps and a booster for a second isolated track, you can not parallel these units to the best of my knowledge, and the hand held unit can not read bad decoder settings!! You must have their computer module for this and it is limited in its addressing. No JMRI support either.

Massoth system does have 128 speed steps, long addressing (9,999 addresses), and 10 amps. NO JMRI support last time I looked.

Zimo has a system coming to market next year with a 20 amp capability on 1 track, 128 speed steps, 9,999 addresses, and has JMRI support.

Other systems are out there as well and most have all the capabilities that the MTS system is missing.

NCE, Digitrax, Lenz to name a few more.

PS. I have the MTS system (serial and parallel ones) as well as the Zimo, its like a Yugo vs a Maserati.
 
#5 ·
As I have previously stated on this forum, to the consternation of a few, JMRI supports any DCC system whose manufacturer willingly provides JMRI with the interface protocol for its central stations (that is how to talk to the central station). Massoth consciously chose not to provide JMRI with the interface protocol for its central stations. Massoth believes that JMRI offers no added value to the Massoth DiMAX system; anything that JMRI can do, Massoth has already done, with the exception of course of that nifty little tool of using smartphones as throttles (anybody knows what happen when the phone rings while 2 trains are on the verge of a collision?)

Dan: whatever happened to Zimo's April 2012 release date?
BTW: Massoth has 2 central stations: one can handle 8 amps continuousy, 10 amps peack; the other 12 amps continuously, 14 amps peak.

Mohammed
http://www.massothusa.com
http://www.allaboutlgb.com
 
#6 ·
Again, you wonder why Massoth refused to open it's interface protocol, since virtually every other manufacturer does.

JMRI offers a wealth of features to the model railroader, not all of them are DCC command functions.

The database that allows you to store information on your locos, and also all the DCC configuration data for virtually ANY decoder is clearly beyond what Massoth offers.

I've never compared the automation capabiity of Massoth vs. JMRI, but again, JMRI will control virtually anything, and Mohammed can verify that Massoth only controls Massoth.

So it looks like people should look "beyond" just the DCC functions, but what software / computer support is available for your system

Also, besides the server software for Android and iPhones used as throttles, JMRI also provides a "web server" for any computer using a web browser, and you can run throttles that way also.

No consternation here Mohammed, just giving the COMPLETE story and information to a beginner asking for help.

It's a forum for sharing information, not an "advertising arena".

Greg
 
#7 ·
Greg:

Any private individual can obtain the Massoth interface protocol directly from Massoth for private use. I have a copy as do many others. They just don't want JMRI to have it, for obvious reasons.

The Massoth central station can maintain and store a 200-locomotive database (DCC configuration data and more). The central station automatically shares this information with any Navigator that is connected to it. When a user selects a locomotive from the database, the locomotive's DCC configuration data is displayed on the Navigator 's screen and may be modified by the user. User modifications can be either temporary or permanent.

the Massoth central station can control any NMRA compliant product no matter who makes it , not just Massoth products.

I am not quite sure what you mean by what software/ computer support is available for your system. Any computer program designed to control an NMRA compliant layout will run on the Massoth system without additional hadware.

Finally, as anyone who has tried our Navigator would tell you, no android or iphones here please.

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutusa.com
http://ww.massothusa.com
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the info about the central station. So does it "store" configurations so you can restore the CV's after a decoder reset?

The difference you may still not be comprehending is that JMRI has all the abilities to handle "extensions" to the NMRA standard CV's.

So QSI uses a set of "indexes", where there are 2 index registers to further expand the available CV's. Zimo uses higher numbered CV's.

So while the Massoth system handles all the "standard" NMRA CV's, I'm sure it does not handle all the NMRA compliant "extensions" used by other manufacturers.

This is a big advantage to people who don't buy all one brand of decoder.

On the android or iphone usage, using a smart phone or tablet or laptop saves money, as anyone who has bought a $400 throttle will tell you.

I'm not putting Massoth down, it's just that there are alternatives and features beyond that are also out there.

Deprecating features the Massoth system does not have is not the way to promote it. A good product stands on it's advantages, not by slamming the opposition.

Regards, Greg
 
#9 ·
There are some CV's that are reserved for proprietary use by the manufacturers. QSI, Zimo, and Massoth have all used them. No manufacturer is obligated to handle them and Massoth is no exception. They have little or no effect on basic operations.

NMRA compliant extensions are a different story and Massoth already handles most of them, SUSI extensions for instance.

JMRI is in no way the opposition, it can be used in conjunction with any DCC system, but it does not compete with them. I and many other people like me do not see a need for using JMRI tools as an adjunct to the Massoth DiMAX system. I have been using the System for as long as Massoth has been making it and I am totally satisfied with what I get out it. I have yet to find a need for an adjunct set of tools for anything.

I am not slamming JRMI , I just do not care for it, I don't need it, I don't want it, and I don't recommend it. I don't like products that are designed by a committee especially when members are amateurs.

Mohammed
 
#10 ·
Wow, now the JMRI people are amateurs! Next you'll put down all open source programming.

I'm happy that you are satisfied with Massoth ONLY... and never own or program any other decoders with proprietary interfaces.

Many of us do exercise the option to buy whatever decoder suits the particular loco and have a single system to manage them.

I'm also happy you can afford $400 throttles, to me a $100 smart phone or $200 tablet used as an additional throttle is a great advantage. (especially combined with effectively infinite wireless range)

But I'm afraid I'm derailing the thread, Massoth is far superior to LGB control, and that is what was asked.

Greg
 
#11 ·
The MTS is a simple controoler to use...if you don't get into switching, station stopps, all that other mumbo jumob......the MTS is simple stop, go, AND toot...that's all I need...if that is all you do then MTS is SUPER for that..can it do more YES!

You can pick up parallel signalling Central stations and controller, not sure of the decoders on Ebay for under $200 for CS, $150 for loco remotes..OR less....timing is everythinng....this I know for fact.

For me the MTS is just right...price is right..and the MTS can be run on battery power also...not sure of the others....so this adds even MORE flexibility

Everyone has their idea of what they need from any system, if it is dependibility, durability, ease of use, then I like the MTS parallel signalling system...but I am biased...if you want to empty your pocketbook, go Maassoth.

The others mentioned I have to bow to their opinions, as I will never find out about their use firsthand...don't need to.

I use 2 systems EXCLUSIVELY Airwire, and LGB/MTS.

IMHO

Bubba
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
It sure is a lot more complicated than a thought a few days ago; I'm glad I asked.

The primary decision I'm looking at is the LGB digital starter set. Since it contains two trains, the MTS system is coming at minimal cost after subtracting the value of the other included components. I therefore see it as neglible cost for at least gaining first-hand experience, and I won't feel bad about superceding it later. It seems clear that buying MTS standalone isn't warranted. The merit of this decision depends on whether the included trains are the right type, though.

Beyond that, it's a balance of cost and features. Zino being about $500 more than Massoth, but does more, easier, and fits with open-source diversity and innovation.

Thanks for the information.
 
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#13 ·
Since mls discontinued email notification, I don't check in here very often - actually 11 pages of new threads since last time, and now that I did, the first thing I see is another somewhat heated discussion about DCC systems.

One DCC system that doesn'r get mentioned very often, and I don't know why - especially for "DCC beginners" is the "Piko" system.
I put Piko in quotation marks since the system is basically a Massoth system with some capabilities removed and a lower power output - but more comparable to the LGB MTS system than the full Massoth system.

As an aside, Zimo just announced the European pricing of their new MX10 DCC system - 1290.- Euros with a small 150 - 200 Watt 24 volt DC power supply. Good for about 8 amps DCC at 24 volts.
The MX10 can deliver 12 amps on output 1 and 8 amps on output 2, but that requires a heftier DC supply.
No date yet of availability, also no official confirmation from Zimo that the two outputs can be bridged to provide a single 20 amp feed.

Knut
 
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