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Discussion starter · #4 ·
Posted By astrayelmgod on 02 Dec 2012 12:41 PM
As the famous Greek philosopher, Clarksonia, once said, "How hard can it be?"
Depends on the outcome..anyone can follow directions and step process but does not guarantee a proper build and top performer on the track
 
#6 ·
That does not compute. If "anyone" can follow directions and step by step process and not have a working steamer that performs well, then either the directions/building plans were wrong, or the individual did not follow them correctly. the latter leading one to conclude that not "everyone" can follow directions.....etc.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Posted By iceclimber on 02 Dec 2012 09:27 PM
That does not compute. If "anyone" can follow directions and step by step process and not have a working steamer that performs well, then either the directions/building plans were wrong, or the individual did not follow them correctly. the latter leading one to conclude that not "everyone" can follow directions.....etc.



Jeremiah
Wrong.... A+B=C is not necessarily mean that C will be functional. For example, when building the basic frame it is easy to bolt together (or if per-assembled) but in doing so will the builder check to make sure it is square (not in the directions in some kits) not checking this will affect the performance. Or a valve gear some times needs a bit more clearance if not done properly it will cause the motion to bind once hot but when cool moves fine. How many builders steam test there engine prior to final assembly when all things are together (steam test is different that air testing). It's one thing to build according to directions it yet another to know what and where to look and how to make adjustments. Finally, how many builders have followed the directions only to find that they have to take apart something or the next part is made impossible with out making a special tool. Assembly steps are very good guides but knowing to look ahead will lessen the difficulty in the next step making kit building more than following directions!! Finally, if directions were the end all in building why are there errata sheets and fellow builders communicating the need for help or giving advise through a build process.
 
#8 ·
My point was more about disagreeing with you about "anyone" being able to follow directions. I do agree that one can follow the plans and still have issues. That is the lay of the land on all 7 continents.

Your reference to errata sheets proves my point about things not working according to the plans. Not necessarily the builder's fault. Say a new kit is out. I buy the kit. Follow the olan to the letter. It goes together but does not function properly. I don't have access to an online source and the model is new. Turns out there was a misprint. Part A should have gone where the diagram and wording has part B going. Forget one's skill level, the directions were wrong.

Either way, typing on my Ipad is more of a chore than building a kit, so I'll leave it at that.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Jeremiah
As you know the terms "anyone or every one" are being used in regards in the context of a live steam forum. I doubt anyone or everyone outside our affliction would spend the money or attempt a kit (vs. RTR Aster, golf, fast cars, or more like investment in art). This discussion should indicate to you that I am not in agreement with your conclusion: " then either the directions/building plans were wrong, or the individual did not follow them correctly" relative to the final outcome (even a "shelve queen" can be build incorrectly) as to the true purpose of kit building.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Art
I think your reference was to the Aster K4 coal fired (we are still in the "drawing board" stage on the Berkshire). BTW- looks of photos to be posted this evening. We have 4 items on the check list, one final test fire and then it is off to you....happy Xmas!

Aster Coal Fired K4
 
#12 ·
A lot of it has to do with "Skill" and "Expertise", but more importantly it has to do with an intangible and immeasurable thing called "Talent".

"Skill" you get by doing something over and over... Practice.

"Expertise" you get by learning from books and being taught by others, and by experimenting with something over time (more practice!)

But "Talent" you either have or don't have.

You can be taught how to play the piano and you can become skillful at doing so by practicing, but I have seen people play the piano that have never been taught and do not practice, and do so better than anyone can be taught or practice to attain.


I bought a mini-lathe and mini-mill with the thought that someday I would whittle a steam locomotive out of a block of metal... what can be so hard about that, once you learn how to run the machines?

I have studied technique and I have worked hard at learning how to use these two machines. I have developed some "skill" at running the machines efficiently and I know a lot about 'how' it is to be done (i.e.: "expertise" at knowing what speeds to use for what material is being cut with what cutting device at what depth and what coolant/lubricant to use, etc.... well... I don't have a lot of experience, but I know where to look up most of those things!).

I have made many "one-off" items on the two machines. Brackets, miniature pipe fittings, valves, whistles, bells, etc. and I am somewhat proud of a few items I have made!

But I have learned that I have absolutely NO "Talent" in regard to running the machines.

My lack of "Talent" is evident in that I have yet to make TWO items that are alike! I tried to make some wheels and when I put them on an axle and rolled it on the table top it went in a circle, indicating that one wheel is bigger than the other. I have tried this MANY times and no two wheels are ever the same diameter. Even the cheapest wheel and axle set purchased from a store will roll fairly straight, but not one I have made!



As for being able to do something just because there is a map or template provided as instruction....


I had a manager (and for several layers of the onion above him) that believed "anyone can do any job".


I had a problem that I could not solve on my own. The "TEAM" I was on was of many and varied levels of expertise in different disciplines and we all knew of each other's strengths and often would go to someone that we knew had more expertise in some area to get help. I went to one of the two fellows that I knew could spend probably less than an hour to solve my immediate problem and get me on my way to completing my work. He apologized and said that he had been told he was not allowed to help anyone without the manager's specific approval. That was a shock to me as no one had ever expressed such a thing to me before.


I went to my manager and he said there was no one available to help me and turned back to his paperwork on his desk.

I didn't leave his office! I said I could not finish the job until I solved this particular problem and for me to do the necessary study to learn how would bust the budget, both in time and dollars and I was not going to waste the company's time and dollars doing so. "I need help with this! Please assign someone that knows how."


He then sighed, and said he would have to assign someone. He looked off into space for a moment, hemmed and hawed a few times, twiddled with his pencil and then said, "I'll assign... YOU." and pointed at me.


My thoughts were something about how his intelligence was in the place where he sat, but I said, "You think 'anybody can do any job', don't you?"


He replied with just a smirk and a nod.


So I said to him, "Well then today I am the CEO and YOU"RE FIRED!" (this was before Donald Trump tried to copyright the term) and turned and walked out of his office.


I put that project aside and worked on many other aspects of my job and 10 months later I retired a bit earlier than I had originally planned. As far as I know that particular project is still in the state it was when I walked out of his office.


But I believe I proved that he was wrong about "anybody can do any job" as he was still employed when I retired... but I understand my "exit interview" wherein I expounded on the reasons (there were "other" issues beside that one) I was retiring resulted in a shake-up in the department about 1 year later and neither he, nor his boss, are working in that particular capacity anymore. But I don't think it had anything to do with Skill, Expertise or Talent... it had more to do with Authority and I didn't have any of that either.
 
#14 ·
from the general tone of this string, i'd hate to think anyone would be turned away from building an Aster kit because they think it takes an unusually great amount of talent. the Challenger will be my third Aster kit and although i might know what to expect a bit more this round, the NKP Berkshire build (my first) went together very easily and worked perfectly upon completion. there is absolutely no reason to test the running gear or boiler with anything more than air and as far as the errata sheets for instructions, they are usually complete before the kit is even shipped. these sheets take care of the very few mistakes that do not get caught until after the instructions are printed. these kits take nothing more than the right tools and a sufficient amount of time. there is little to no guesswork involved. even better, afterwards, you will gain a much better understanding of the working of a live steam locomotive.
 
#15 ·
To: Sempor vaporo

If you want to make two or more items alike you need to use a jig or fixture. Locomotive wheels need a fixture to turn to the same diameter. The procedure is described in several books and magazines. There are several steps to turn a wheel, the final will be of interest to you. You need to make a fixture from a spare driving wheel or casting can be used if the OD is large enough. You make a pin to hold the wheel by the axle hole with a nut to secure the wheel. The pin is held by the chuck or screwed into casting.Then each wheel is mounted on the pin and the final few "thou" are removed. Then each wheel is turned to the same OD. Turn the first wheel, then lock the top and cross slide. All wheels should come out the same. The procedure is easier to do than describe.
You will be using the lathe to make all wheels the same and not using measurements of each wheel to get the same OD. Of course, you are trying to make the tread the same, ( to contact the rail), not the flange OD , your table top test is not the correct way to test the treads.

Next time you turn wheels try using a fixture. I am sure you will get good results.

I believe that experience is the key to success!

Gerald Pierce
 
#16 ·
To Gerald Pierce:

We are getting way off topic here. Suffice it to say I have followed the instructions in one of Kozo Hiraoka's books as well as another machinist/author and I used to be an active member of the Chaski Machinist Board where I asked lots of questions and got lots of advice. I have used the method you describe and the pair of wheels still roll in an arc. So, I have pretty much given up the "Machinists" route and have gone the "Artists" route (I often pronounce that as 'ARTEEEST' and try to fake the Arteest personality when showing my wares). I enjoy making stuff that don't need a duplicate! I make "One-of-a-kind" things!

As for whether it is Talent or Skill required to assemble an Aster kit... Hmmm... I don't think I have either and I thoroughly enjoyed assembling two Aster Mikados. (I almost wish they took longer to do.) They work just fine.

And I have seen the result of someone else assembling a much simpler Live Steam locomotive kit that, to be as kind as I can, resulted in a complete muddle. And I have no explanation for the result.
 
#17 ·
I have a gas fired vertical boiler that I use to test run each chassis I build, before continuing the build. I started using this boiler because an engine I built ran great on air, but after completing the engine, it would not run on steam. With it all buttoned up, it made troubleshooting much more difficult. The issue was the crosshead guide would cause too much friction to allow operation because of reduced clearance after thermal expansion. Usually if an engine runs well on air, it will run better on steam due to pressurized steam's expansive nature. Always if a chassis runs well on the vertical boiler, it will run well on it's own boiler. The added expense of having a stand-alone boiler may not be worth the price if you are planning on only ever assembling one locomotive. It has helped me with two problematic kits and helped troubleshoot other previously assmebled locos from various manufacturers.
 
#18 ·
Posted By seadawg on 04 Dec 2012 06:58 AM
.... The issue was the crosshead guide would cause too much friction to allow operation because of reduced clearance after thermal expansion. ...i could see a benefit of this procedure in a scratchbuilt locomotive, but more directed at uncovering a design flaw as in your example, rather than an assembly error (air gap/ leak). i have a great deal of confidence that Aster has worked out any problems like that in their prototype and production testing.
 
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