G Scale Model Train Forum banner
141 - 160 of 190 Posts
Discussion starter · #141 ·
Interesting, because several of the commenters have said that the silicone O rings used for piston rings have to be replaced periodically due to deterioration from the heat of the steam. It wouldn't surprise me if they can handle the pressure, but for how long?
 
I use Viton O-rings and never had one go out. If you lap the bore with fine lapping compound, just so the surface is a bit frosty, the ring will last a very long time. Wearing out rings is probably due to a bore that's just been reamed and not lapped. If you go thru thru trouble of scratchbuilding, add that last step and the job turns out so much better.
 
Discussion starter · #143 ·
If I remember correctly what I've read, the Viton O rings last much better than the silicone O rings, apparently they can take the heat better?
When you say "just so the surface is a bit frosty", does that mean that the surface shouldn't be completely smooth?
 
Miss Amber,

Going back to the days when I went drag racing... He means that the bore should have a satin finish rather than a polished finish. This enables the oil to sit in the micro grooves and the satin finish also gives a finer wear on the ring. I used to use a 10 micron 45 degree cross hatch honed finish on my Daimler Engines. The "O" ring should actually longitudinally rotate slightly within its slot i.e. the slot should be slightly wider than the thickness of the seal. So, if the thickness of the seal is 3mm then the slot should be 3.3mm. Most people use 10% as it is an easy number...

regards

ralph
 
Exactly what Ralph said. The satin finish allows oil to set in. If the cylinder is polished to a glass smooth surface the rings will squeegee the oil off and the engine will freeze up. 18" Stilsons will not get it to turn. Been there done that.


Viton is a fairly hard form of rubber. It does not go mooshy will heat, steam or oil. The rings you get at the hardware store are probably Buna. Buna works too, but is a bit softer.
 
Discussion starter · #146 ·
I'll keep in mind the 10% extra in the slot for the piston ring when I get to that part. I'm going to try using the Buna O rings first because I can get those locally. Once I figure out which size works the best, then I can order some Viton O rings. I've been working on the cylinders a bit as I can get to them. I have a piece of stainless rod to make pistons out of, it seems to be reasonably workable, but I'll know more about that when I go to make the piston ring slots and cut off the pieces for the pistons. I was going to use sections of a regular bolt, but I think those would start rusting too fast.
 
Here's some final numbers for a ring fitting that works.

Cylinder bore: 0.514"
Piston diameter: 0.494"

O-ring: Viton 1/2" OD, 3/8" ID actuall wall thickness 0.070" (supposedly)

Width of ring groove in piston: 0.075"

Diameter of ring groove in piston: 0.384"


Pistons for O ring applications are just carriers of the ring. Pistons are not in contact with the cylinder bore in any way. That's why the piston above is fully 0.020" smaller then the cylinder. The diameter of the ring groove in the piston is the critical dimension. It makes the ring "crushed" into the bore just a "TT" bit. It's a matter of trial and error to get the fit right.


I would suggest buying 100 rings from McMaster Carr. They will be from the same lot and very consistent. So you only have to do trial and error once. Or at least you don't have to fiddle as much. Getting onezee twozee from the hardware store, you don't know what you are getting


Bore and lap the cylinder first. Fit the ring second. You want the piston as loose as possible, but still maintaining a seal.
 
Discussion starter · #148 ·
The piece of brass pipe that I'll be using for the pump cylinder seems to be pretty smooth on the inside, so I'll try "lapping" it with a piece of scotchbrite pad. If it turns out too rough, I can always get another piece of pipe to replace it. I think I may have a gland fitting figured out so that I don't have to cut a groove for an O ring in the ram.
I managed to build a goodall valve this evening that looks like it might work for the boiler. Of course, I won't know until I test it, first to see if it leaks backwards, and then to see if I can pump water into the boiler through it. I also finally was able to resolder the boiler leak this afternoon, I'll test it tomorrow to see if it will hold pressure. I'll do a cold water test using air to pressurize the boiler full of water. I already know that the boiler will handle a lot of pressure, so I'm only going to test it at about 60 PSI to see if it will hold pressure for a period of time. Once I get a working water pump, I'll be able to test it at a higher pressure.
I also built a nozzle for a squirt bottle for a goodall valve pump. I need to get the flex tubing for it and figure out the connector that goes to the valve.
 
I haven't bore cylinders yet, but I have polished a lot of brass reflectors. For my money nothing buts a good buffing compound and a drimel with a buffing wheel on it. If you progressively buff the surface you can acheive a mirror fiinish in very little time.
 
Discussion starter · #150 ·
I finally got to re-test the boiler this afternoon. I started about 6 pm or so. I put the 2 pipes on the boiler, one with the valve on it, and one to put the pressure gauge on. Then I filled it full of water and tried to get out all the air that I could. After that, I put the pressure gauge on it's pipe, and the air filler on the valve. I set the air compressor valve for what I thought was about 60 PSI, but it ended up being about 80 PSI. I discovered that you have to shut the valve while you have the tire filler hooked up to the air nozzle, the first couple of times I tried to pressurize it, the pressure would go right back to zero when I removed the tire filler from the air nozzle, and a little water came out of the air nozzle valve. I ended up with about 82 PSI in the boiler. I just checked it a few minutes ago, and the pressure is still holding at 82 PSI, so maybe I finally got all the leaks fixed.

 
Miss Amber,

Congratulations on your first one completed. Now the hard work really begins (unfortunately). The next thing you have to do once you are happy with your boiler is a "steaming test". This will tell you how much steam you can get from your boiler for a given amount of energy fed into it. This is not the efficiency of the boiler -but rather its steam raising ability. Differing boiler designs raise steam at different rates at different pressures. For example a "porcupine boiler" raises steam at a peak between 3 to 4.5 BAR whilst a "Smithies" raises steam at a peak of 2 to 5 BAR. You will also have to investigate some form of "superheater" or atleast a steam dryer to stop hydraulic shock in the pistons. If you have not decided on a linkage system yet could I suggest you investigate the "Hackworth" valve gear as this is very simple and self evident -unlike something like the "Joy" or "Baker" systems.

regards

ralph
 
Discussion starter · #152 ·
Ralph, I had thought of running a coil of small diameter copper tubing around the inside of the top of the boiler in the smokebox to act as a steam dryer, I don't think it would actually superheat the steam in this boiler, but it would probably at least "dry" it out. I actually thought about putting the bushing for the steam valve on the upper flue plate instead of the boiler shell, but I didn't want to complicate the boiler design on my first build. Ideally, the thing to do would be to put the steam valve inside the boiler at the top where the steam collects, and run the outlet through the upper flue plate and through a coil inside the smokebox, but I'm not ready to build that yet. :)
I left the boiler pressurized all night last night, and when I checked it this afternoon, it was still pressurized. It had lost a couple of PSI, but I think that was from sitting in the cold basement all night. It was still at about 78 PSI. It was fun letting the pressure out of the boiler! When I opened the valve, I got a squirt of water that went about 20 feet. Now I know how to make an air powered squirt gun. :)
Next week, I'll hook up the various parts to the boiler, the pop valve, the small pressure gauge, the steam valve, and the goodall valve, and test it again to see if I have any plumbing leaks with that stuff. The sight glass will have to wait until I get one ready to go.
I'll have to look up some information on the Hackworth valve gear.
 
I warned you about that squirt of water!!!!
Image
The force that propelled it was the stretched metal of the boiler shell returning to its normal state.

If you would like to see some of the various valve gear that have been used over the years, download Charlie Dockstader's "Valve Gear" program. Mr. Dockstader released the program to the public domain and has updated it to run in Windows (I have run it in Windows 98 SE, XP and just downloaded it again and it runs just fine in Windows 7). You can get all the parts of the program suite at this web site:

http://jf2.com/bcwrr/Dockstader-Valve-Gear.html

You can download groups of programs to run one at a time if you are really low on disk space (somewhere there is a list of which valve gear are in which of the 15 or so zip files available to download), but I recommend downloading the "All-in-One.zip" file. UnZip it to a place you want to keep it all, then run the program named, "VBStart.exe" and it will present a window with buttons for all 67 of the individual Valve Gear simulators that are available. There is also a PDF document file you can download that explains more about the suite of programs.

It is said you can design valve gear parts using this set of programs but I have not tried it... I get too fascinated watching the animations!
 
Discussion starter · #154 ·
Of course, the air that i pumped into the boiler to pressurize the water may have had some effect on the water squirting out when I opened the valve. :)
I'll have to check out that program, it would probably be very useful for designing valve gear for a steam engine. It might even help make sense of some of the valve gear setups.
 
Posted By iceclimber on 14 Apr 2012 06:14 AM
Whats a "steam dryer"?


When enough calories are added to liquid water the temperature will reach the boiling point. Then you have to add LOTS MORE heat to get it to convert to a gas. That is called the Heat of Vaporization. But the temperature of the gas form of water does not change with all that added heat. When not contained in a pressure vessel, the temperature will be 212 degrees (F) (100 Celsius). BOTH the liquid water AND the Gaseous Steam will be at that same temperature.

But the gaseous form is now insulated from the heat source by the water and starts to lose calories and will revert to the liquid state (condense).

The condensed water is held in suspension in the gaseous form as very tiny droplets... maybe even only 2 or 3 molecules of water attached to each other. When they come in contact with more molecules that have lost heat energy, they will join and eventually become too heavy to remain in suspension and will essentially become "rain drops" and fall back to the bottom (or into the water that is being heated). That liquid water in suspension is NOT COMPRESSIBLE! That is a very important thing to note.

The steam around the liquid form of joined molecules is compressible and is attempting to expand, but in a boiler it is contained (Hopefully!) by the pressure vessel and you get pressure that can do work. So you pass that "wet" steam (gas with liquid suspended in it) through a valve (throttle) and on to the valve gear and cylinder/piston to use that pressure to move the piston. But the steam is continuing to condense to water and losing pressure. And that liquid form of the water, being as that it is not compressible, has no pressure in and of itself and is thus not capable of doing any work to move the piston. It is just water flowing in the pipes and taking up space and using energy being pushed around, energy that would be better used to move the piston to do the work desired of the engine.

Ideally all the pipes and the valves and the cylinders should be heated to above the temperature at which the steam was formed. To raise the heat energy in the steam and keep more molecules in the gaseous state.

There are actually two ways to separate the liquid form of water from the gaseous form (or "dry" it).

One way is to spin the "wet" steam in a centrifuge. No, not the kind that an astronaut trains in, but a container where the "wet" steam enters from the side and is deflected by some baffles to cause it to spin in a circular motion. The liquid water will want to travel in a straighter line than the gaseous form and thus move to the outside of the container and the gaseous form will tend to deflect more and can be extracted out via a pipe near the center of the container. Thus you get "dry" steam out of the "Steam Dryer" and the liquid form condenses on the outer walls and drains out via slots in the bottom of the container.

The other way is to pass the "wet" steam through a pipe that is close to the heat source where it picks up additional calories (heat) and the liquid droplets again revert to a gas. It this pipe is just in the smoke box then not much heat is added and it is called a "Steam Dryer". If the pipe passes close to the fire, like the pipe is threaded into the flue of the boiler or actually into the firebox, then LOTS of heat is added and it is called a "Super Heater".

Now, as to that compressing water with air... consider this thought experiment:

You have a container made of titanium steel and it has 10 ft thick walls around a void in the middle that is about 1 cubic ft in volume. There are two openings. One is a valve out the side and one is for a piston that can be inserted from the top. You fill the void with water, close the valve and insert a piston. Being sure that there is no air in the system (NONE!). Now, you put a 100 pound weight on the piston to push it down into the void in the container. The container is so thick and strong that it does not stretch and cannot deform in any way. Then weld the piston into the position so it cannot move in any direction; either out or further in. Since it is welded in place, you could take the weight off of it and it won't release the pressure that has been applied to it.

Now open the valve in the side of the container. What happens?

I will tell you that NO water will come out! If there was no air in the system to compress and the container did not stretch and the piston cannot move from its position, then the water has no pressure and will NOT squirt out. Water is not compressible.

When a boiler of water is compressed by attaching a compressed air source, the boiler will expand like a rubber balloon, just not as much as a rubber balloon. The water that squirts out is because the boiler shell is contracting to its original size, not because the water has any pressure in it.

The very real DANGER of using compressed air to pressurize an UNKNOWN quality pressure vessal is that the vessel COULD burst. IF the source of air is capable of supplying an unlimited quantity of air then there is a very real danger of an EXPLOSION. Not because the water has any energy in it, but because the compressed air pushing on it has energy in it and it will push the water our the rupture and there will be an equal and opposite reaction to the moving water, which will move the container the other direction in direct proportion to the mass and speed of the content of the vessel.

Another experiment you can think about (or actually do part of it!):

Fill a balloon with water and then attach a pressure gauge to the balloon and measure the pressure. The normal cheap balloon will probably have no more than a pound or two. Now stick the balloon with a pin and watch where the water goes. Does it just fall to the ground in a big splash or does it violently travel around the room in all directions?

Now fill the balloon with air and measure the pressure. It should also be just a pound or two. Now stick a pin in the balloon. What happens? Does it make a LOUD NOISE? Does it toss parts of the balloon all over the place?

Now, imagine putting 60 pounds of pressure in a "balloon" that is full of water. Pop it! What happens? I'll tell you that the water will fall to the floor in a splash just like the cheap balloon with 1 or 2 pounds of pressure.

Now imagine doing that with air in the "balloon" and what kind of noise it would make! "Pop" just will not describe the sound with any sort of accuracy. Do you really think it would be wise to have your own body parts in the vicinity? How far from this "balloon" would you want your antique curved glass china cabinet?

Did you ever have one of those toy rockets that you fill 1/2 way with water and then attach it to a pump to inject air into it? Then you aim it UP (and not at your sibling! and NOT IN THE HOUSE!... and of course you did heed the warning to not pump more than 10 to 15 strokes... yeah right!) and pull a release catch that releases the rocket from the pump. The compressed air pushes the water out the bottom and the rocket goes "hundreds" (yeah, right!) of feet in the air!

If you do not put water in it, but just pump it with air, it might get a few inches off the pump nozzle. If you fill the rocket all the way with water, then it is lots more difficult to pump air into it. You CAN get some air into it and it gets absorbed into the water, or the rocket shell stretches to accommodate the increased volume, but it is very difficult to work the pump. When you release the catch the vessel walls will relax and shove some water out the bottom and the air that is contained in the water will come out and push some water out, but the rocket flight will be dismal and when it lands there will still be water in the rocket because there was not enough quantity of pressure to push it all out. The only quantity was the stretched container (the body of the rocket) and the small amount of air that got in and compressed due to the body stretching to make a larger volume of the container.
 
Discussion starter · #158 ·
It seems that I lost a few days worth of postings in the forum "glitch", so I'll have to go back to the part about firing the boiler. I've decided to build a propane burner for the boiler. I'm going to try building a "flat top" burner with multiple holes in the top and see if that works. With a vertical boiler, I don't think a burner made from a piece of tubing would work very well. It's not like a horizontal monotube boiler where you can put the burner right in the flue tube. I'm thinking about using a pipe cap as the top of the burner and drilling a number of holes in it for the gas to come out of. I'm not sure how small to drill the holes. They need to be big enough to let some gas out, but not too big. I'm going to try using the end of a "pencil point" propane torch for the jet, that way I also have a valve for the gas. I'm not sure what kind of flexable line to use between the burner and the valve and tank, I plan on separating the burner jet from the tank connection so it's easier to set the thing up. Now, I just have to find a few parts to put it together.
 
141 - 160 of 190 Posts