I've been reading the Forums about track support systems, usually after I look at all the pictures. I understand floating track on ballast but there are numerous references to "ladders", often made of PVC, being used for support. Several posts of members projects show photos of these ladders but I haven't found any place that describes how to build one. The idea of building the support system THEN pouring dirt around it sounds better than digging up the near-rock hard dirt and rock that make up my backyard. All pointers are greatly appreciated.
Ladder system for supporting track
fyrekop
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I've been reading the Forums about track support systems, usually after I look at all the pictures. I understand floating track on ballast but there are numerous references to "ladders", often made of PVC, being used for support. Several posts of members projects show photos of these ladders but I haven't found any place that describes how to build one. The idea of building the support system THEN pouring dirt around it sounds better than digging up the near-rock hard dirt and rock that make up my backyard. All pointers are greatly appreciated.
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6,091 Posts
The Principal is simple; attach the spacer blocks to one side, bend to match your curve and screw/nail the other side to each block and the curve will be held. Same for straight aways. You want your 'sides' to support the rails, I'd support the outside edge of the rails to allow for expansion. The blocks are the same and hold the sides at the right seperation. Stagger the sides to alternate the mating of ends.
Many use PVC pipe the width of the blocks to support the structure, insert between the sides, pound into the ground and attach when the ladder is at the right height and cut off extra pipe.
This is a simplified explanation, but trial and error will teach you quickly.
Happy Rails
John
Many use PVC pipe the width of the blocks to support the structure, insert between the sides, pound into the ground and attach when the ladder is at the right height and cut off extra pipe.
This is a simplified explanation, but trial and error will teach you quickly.
Happy Rails
John
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5,870 Posts
This is what I do for Concrete Road bed. I am not trying to convert you to concrete but the basic principal is the same when building Ladder road bed.
The sides are held in place by the Spacers in the middle.
The spacing between the steel sides is about 3.5 inches. The same width as measured across the ties outside to outside.
The spacers are minus the thickness of the material used for the sides. So if the thickness of the outside material is .25 The width of the spacer is 3 inches.
The distance between the spacers is usually a uniform number
Now if your are going to raise your ladder road bed on stakes then the spacers are attached to the stakes.
JJ
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The sides are held in place by the Spacers in the middle.
The spacing between the steel sides is about 3.5 inches. The same width as measured across the ties outside to outside.
The spacers are minus the thickness of the material used for the sides. So if the thickness of the outside material is .25 The width of the spacer is 3 inches.
The distance between the spacers is usually a uniform number
Now if your are going to raise your ladder road bed on stakes then the spacers are attached to the stakes.
JJ
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761 Posts
The original ladder roadbed came from an idea by Paul Race. You can find his way of doing it here; http://personalweb.donet.com/~paulrace/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm
Since then there have been various people who used Paul's ideas as a starting point and constructed similar roadbed using other, sometimes cheaper, materials they can find at their local big box supply store. There are many different things that can be used. Just do a search on this forum for ladder roadbed to give you some ideas.
Hope this helps.
Since then there have been various people who used Paul's ideas as a starting point and constructed similar roadbed using other, sometimes cheaper, materials they can find at their local big box supply store. There are many different things that can be used. Just do a search on this forum for ladder roadbed to give you some ideas.
Hope this helps.
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1,489 Posts
I did mine a little backwards with a little bit of difficulty by setting up a work area on top of my utility trailer and forming the ladder to match the sectional track I used. Sadly this was only partially successful. I made it work once I staked it down but it was not pretty. Of course once it was ballasted it covered up all my imperfections. Until the ballast settled in. Re-ballasting will commence in the spring. As stated however you bend one side of the ladder with spacer blocks attached to match your desired curve and then screw the other side to it. This "sets" the curve and while it will vary some depending on your chosen materials, it stays pretty well. I chose to use the PVC trim board available at Home Depot near me. Less work than ripping the trex stuff. My thread here: http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/9/aft/121259/Default.aspx
IT is by no means the ONLY way to do it.
Chas
IT is by no means the ONLY way to do it.
Chas
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676 Posts
I owuld be very cautious about the ladder system. I know 5 customers which have all ripped it out again.
For one if you use this as a rasied roadbed and you live in a frost zone you will experience constant shifting of the upright post between winter and summer ultimately leading to wobbleing track. This could only be prevented if you put these uprights and secure them below the frost line. An impractical excercise.
I suspect that laying the ladder system on the ground, I also expect difficuly in keeping it sidewise level. And since you a digging a trench (as seen in the photo) why not go the extra step and dig a little deeper can go with crusher fines and free floating track (like the prototype). From my experience you will be happier.
Of course with everything in life you will find proponents and opponents for every idea. I can only report what I have expereicned with hundreds of conversation of layout building and of course with my own.
For one if you use this as a rasied roadbed and you live in a frost zone you will experience constant shifting of the upright post between winter and summer ultimately leading to wobbleing track. This could only be prevented if you put these uprights and secure them below the frost line. An impractical excercise.
I suspect that laying the ladder system on the ground, I also expect difficuly in keeping it sidewise level. And since you a digging a trench (as seen in the photo) why not go the extra step and dig a little deeper can go with crusher fines and free floating track (like the prototype). From my experience you will be happier.
Of course with everything in life you will find proponents and opponents for every idea. I can only report what I have expereicned with hundreds of conversation of layout building and of course with my own.
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810 Posts
Fry,
Deleted....need to figure out pictures again.
![Image]()
Bob C.
Deleted....need to figure out pictures again.
Bob C.
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434 Posts
I have since added another loop, this is a old pic, but I have had my 1.5 in PVC pipe in the ground for 4 years now and it has not moved at all, I live south side of Chicago, so I get harsh winters, I think because pipe is hollow and does not have a flat spot to push up with frost heave that it works well, my experience. I use electrical PVC pipe now, UV protected and cheaper, go figure. I cut Trex into strips and used Cedar blocks in between.
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Tom h
Tom h
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131 Posts
I am a big fan of Outdoor elevated Curved Ladder Garden RRing!!! I live in cool GBay, WI.... having a 340 ft layout.
I consider Paul Race of Ohio as the Basis for The Best Ladder construction info and descriptive techniques.....
Just Google: Paul Race Ladder RR and start reading......... With out this Info... I would not have built a Garden RR !!
And yes I had to re-level 2 of 188 PVC 1.5" OD support posts last Spring.... Just back out the Stainless Set Screw & re-adjust height.
And back aches are at a minimum..
Just click on my ID Photo at the left & view 2 photos my Garden RR before the Stainless Track was bent and laid......
Dennis M
PS: The wire feeds are concealed in the spacer block holes....
I consider Paul Race of Ohio as the Basis for The Best Ladder construction info and descriptive techniques.....
Just Google: Paul Race Ladder RR and start reading......... With out this Info... I would not have built a Garden RR !!
And yes I had to re-level 2 of 188 PVC 1.5" OD support posts last Spring.... Just back out the Stainless Set Screw & re-adjust height.
And back aches are at a minimum..
Just click on my ID Photo at the left & view 2 photos my Garden RR before the Stainless Track was bent and laid......
Dennis M
PS: The wire feeds are concealed in the spacer block holes....
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1,106 Posts
Mine has been outside for four years now and never had any problems. I used1 1/2" pipe, down 28".
Have 250 foot of ladder. If I had to do it again I would use the ladder system again. Very easy to
install.
I would post a photo but the secert code don't work.
Have 250 foot of ladder. If I had to do it again I would use the ladder system again. Very easy to
install.
I would post a photo but the secert code don't work.
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401 Posts
John J makes a strong case for his bombproof concrete roadbed and I've reviewed his other posts on it's virtues but I'm considering a ladder system on my new railroad here in Asheville. For a few reasons; one is, I like that you can get your railroad up and running immediately with your track flying up in the air 'trestle-like' at the proper grades and do your backfill/grading and ballasting later and make changes as possibly unforeseen runoff issues present themselves without tearing up all your floated ballast work if you misjudged a rain runoff/drainage issue. There's been some mention on garden train blogs of the failure point being frost heave. Paul Race says:
"Drive the posts into the ground through the roadbed far enough to prevent posts from tipping. Space 2 foot maximum. Do not sharpen the end of the post. Sharpening the post like a stake to make it easier to drive will cause the post to push out of the ground later during frost heave."
Tom H says above:
"I get harsh winters, I think because pipe is hollow and does not have a flat spot to push up with frost heave that it works well, my experience."
I have been considering hollow PVC for posts also with similar reasoning. Frost line here is reported to be 12" depth. I wonder if the real key is just getting whatever your posts are to below frost heave depth like with any other footing.
Has anyone had problems with the posts heaving even when sunk deep? What is the best way to backfill and how wide an area around the ladder do folks recommend for ballast?
"Drive the posts into the ground through the roadbed far enough to prevent posts from tipping. Space 2 foot maximum. Do not sharpen the end of the post. Sharpening the post like a stake to make it easier to drive will cause the post to push out of the ground later during frost heave."
Tom H says above:
"I get harsh winters, I think because pipe is hollow and does not have a flat spot to push up with frost heave that it works well, my experience."
I have been considering hollow PVC for posts also with similar reasoning. Frost line here is reported to be 12" depth. I wonder if the real key is just getting whatever your posts are to below frost heave depth like with any other footing.
Has anyone had problems with the posts heaving even when sunk deep? What is the best way to backfill and how wide an area around the ladder do folks recommend for ballast?
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1,489 Posts
In my short experience (see post above) I made a few mistakes. For one I used an existing garden plot and expanded it. I took the sod out adn rototilled the soil adding in a gardening mix of topsoil and fertilizer to replace the sod I took out. This greatly loosened the soil up and it now is settling greatly. I set my loop of track in place and eleveated it slightly then drive the PVC electrical conduit posts in about 24 to 30 inches deep. That is not quite the depth of the frost line here in South Western NY state. where they say the frost line goes anywhere from 2 to 4 foot deep. However the loop sets next to the house and my experience has shown the frost level is not so deep nearer the foundation of a house in our area. Of course so far my ladder roadbed loop is fine (or was before winter set in). We've only had about 3 hard freezes and last night when I got home the ground was thawed. OF course now we have a huge lake effect storm coming thru with temps reported to drop into the teens briefly on Sunday. So far I've not noticed tht the loop has shifted at all BUT the ballast has dropped away from the ladder AND the track has shifted on top of the ladder. I am certain I can still run trains on it at this point as the ladder is stable or seems to be and the track is still mostly on top of the ladder. I will defintely need to add a LOT of ballast in the spring when the asphalt plant opens up again and I can source the crushed limestone again. I used about 1 1/2 tons backfilling my 8 foot diameter by 24-25 foot long loop to a height of about 1 foot above the grade of the front yard. In my next expansion of it I will add in packed topsoil around the ladder and then add the ballast on top of it.
Chas
Chas
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131 Posts
In reply to Mr SRW's questions......
AS far as PVC support posts go.... I bought Home Depot 10 ft 1.5" ID (correction) & cut them to 30" or 40" chunks.
I left 18" white & painted the tops olive drab green for UV protection.
Before I pounded the posts with a Harbor Freight dead blow orange hammer... I drill augered a 1.25" Dia Drill hole 12" deep at pipe locations.
Augering found rocks, roots, & reduced hammer blows in half & cut neighbor noise.
Posts were located at Tangent points (Curve meets a straight) & at 2 ft intervals. Posts were pounded 18" deep to the paint line!
I have not back filled any location yet...... The width of the ladder may be important for ballast.
My ladder width is 0.75" + 0.75" + 1.875" ( Bear Board rip + Bear Board rip + (either a PVC post or Bear Board Spacer Block drilled for wires)....
Ballast addition requires a ladder "cap (flat Foam?)"
I did fill my 188 posts with Dow Spray foam (Red or black... The less air bubbles the better) to keep Water & ice out since I had no ballast cap............
I did tie the rail ties to the ladder every 3 ft by putting UV cable ties around the spacer block. This allows rail float in 2 directions...
Dennis M from GBay, WI
PS: Only freight cars (no engines nor Pass) have tumbled off the elevated ladder the past year. Was due to "narrow rail" gauge... Dual Bender fixed the problem..
Max track height is 22 inches above the soil...
I did leveling & height adjustment via a Stainless deck Set Screw on every post on one side only. Post friction fit is tight for 1.875 OD PVC...... & Blocks...
AS far as PVC support posts go.... I bought Home Depot 10 ft 1.5" ID (correction) & cut them to 30" or 40" chunks.
I left 18" white & painted the tops olive drab green for UV protection.
Before I pounded the posts with a Harbor Freight dead blow orange hammer... I drill augered a 1.25" Dia Drill hole 12" deep at pipe locations.
Augering found rocks, roots, & reduced hammer blows in half & cut neighbor noise.
Posts were located at Tangent points (Curve meets a straight) & at 2 ft intervals. Posts were pounded 18" deep to the paint line!
I have not back filled any location yet...... The width of the ladder may be important for ballast.
My ladder width is 0.75" + 0.75" + 1.875" ( Bear Board rip + Bear Board rip + (either a PVC post or Bear Board Spacer Block drilled for wires)....
Ballast addition requires a ladder "cap (flat Foam?)"
I did fill my 188 posts with Dow Spray foam (Red or black... The less air bubbles the better) to keep Water & ice out since I had no ballast cap............
I did tie the rail ties to the ladder every 3 ft by putting UV cable ties around the spacer block. This allows rail float in 2 directions...
Dennis M from GBay, WI
PS: Only freight cars (no engines nor Pass) have tumbled off the elevated ladder the past year. Was due to "narrow rail" gauge... Dual Bender fixed the problem..
Max track height is 22 inches above the soil...
I did leveling & height adjustment via a Stainless deck Set Screw on every post on one side only. Post friction fit is tight for 1.875 OD PVC...... & Blocks...
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590 Posts
More thanks for the input. I can see where frost heave could be an problem in cooler climates but here in Southern Arizona it really isn't a factor. I really appreciate the comment about using an auger with power drill to locate rocks etc before dropping in pipe as I have found quite a few large rocks while putting in water and power lines.
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810 Posts
Fry,
Let me try this again. Here is a pic of our club layout in the process of getting track laid.
![Image]()
For more pics go to http://www.ecgrc.com/Gordon Lot Projest.html
Good luck.
Bob C.
Let me try this again. Here is a pic of our club layout in the process of getting track laid.
For more pics go to http://www.ecgrc.com/Gordon Lot Projest.html
Good luck.
Bob C.
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401 Posts
I agree with fyrekop that the advice on using an auger before driving posts would be helpful as you noted all the rock you hit while putting in water & power lines but I think it might also be advisable in some parts of the yard to call Miss Utility to check the railroad area prior to augering so I wouldn't hit one of those water or power lines myself [laugh]. I think the only thing in my backyard is the septic drain field though. Power, phone and water all seem to come on my property from the front as the water shutoff and electric/phone boxes all are along the street so i think I may be safe to use the auger idea out back.
The way my yard slopes I may be able to trench and float the upper 1/2 to 2/3rds of the track on ballast at the current yard level or maybe use John J's concrete road bed idea and I'm thinking of only using the post/ladder support for the lower side that will require backfill and grading and will be prone to settling and washouts for a few years.
Thanks for all the good advice everybody.
Scott
The way my yard slopes I may be able to trench and float the upper 1/2 to 2/3rds of the track on ballast at the current yard level or maybe use John J's concrete road bed idea and I'm thinking of only using the post/ladder support for the lower side that will require backfill and grading and will be prone to settling and washouts for a few years.
Thanks for all the good advice everybody.
Scott
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401 Posts
Armorsmith,
Impressive foundation, both the switchyard as well as the trestles. Gives me some good ideas. Thanks for sharing.
What are the trestles made of? Looks like maybe ripped down Trex. What are the metal rails made of up on the trestles? or is that just the same material as the ladder rails painted flat black/gray?
Impressive foundation, both the switchyard as well as the trestles. Gives me some good ideas. Thanks for sharing.
What are the trestles made of? Looks like maybe ripped down Trex. What are the metal rails made of up on the trestles? or is that just the same material as the ladder rails painted flat black/gray?
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8,406 Posts
I think it might also be advisable in some parts of the yard to call Miss Utility to check the railroad area prior to augering so I wouldn't hit one of those water or power lines myself
If you forgo the auger and just bash in the PVC pipe, there won't be much risk of damage.
If you forgo the auger and just bash in the PVC pipe, there won't be much risk of damage.
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