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Help Required re reverse Loops in new Layout

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#41 ·
I have to agree with Greg, relay technology is simply no longer appropriate for this application.

In addition to the points Greg made, relays are much too slow if the trigger for the AR is a short circuit.

For that type of operation the polarity reversal needs to be the fastest it can possibly be to minimuze the time of the short circuit.
Relays with contacts that can carry 10 or 12 or 15 amps have operate and release times in the millisecond range. With the older reversers that did use relays one can often see a slight hesitation as the train enters the reversed polarity section.

With solid state switches that switching time would be in the microsecond range which is easier on the wheel/rail contact and the booster/central station.


Now if the AR design is such that the polarity switch is triggered by a reed or some rail contact method before the train enters the reverse polarity section, in other words there never is a short going through a reverse loop, than relays would be fine technically to keep the cost low although I would still prefer a solid state switching device.


Knut
 
#42 ·
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Jun 2011 12:33 PM
You know, I often suggest your relay solutions in all the other forums, but here, it's really not appropriate as a solution. I know you must be having fun just coming back and back, but who is this helping? How is it constructive? How is it helping people less knowledgeable than yourself?

Regards, Greg

It provides a different train of thought on doing something that perhaps someone had not considered, or thought was possible. If it gets one person to "think," it accomplishes a goal.
 
#43 ·
I'm all for free thinking... but the components you are using are way outclassed by the requirements and needs of the system. Not a little, but WAY outclassed.

It's simply not appropriate, no more thinking is necessary here. It's not constructive, it is not helping anyone.

Your logic fails here because your building block is a relay with no electronic smarts.

This would be like going to Ford and proposing they build cars with hammers and saws, because it would get them to think.

Just makes no sense, and it's not just you and I, it's a whole group of people that might get the mistaken idea that this could be a good idea.

That's why I keep responding to you. I'm not trying to win, I'm trying to keep you from leading people astray.

We are talking expensive electronics in a loco, not a $3 mabuchi motor.

Greg
 
#44 ·
Greg, with all due respect, so what if the technology is outmoded? It does the job, therefore it's a viable alternative and worthy of discussion within this thread. Tube amplifiers are outmoded technology, too, but many guitarists and bassists still swear by them (that is when they're not swearing at them.) For that matter, steam locos are outmoded technology, but we still discuss how they work.

The Massoth unit was discussed earlier on in this thread as a perfectly viable solution to the problem. It works with relays. You can hear them click as they reverse the polarity. It's more expensive than the solution you offered, but it has other advantages, such as not relying on a short to trigger the sensor.

Later,

K
 
#45 ·
No, it does NOT do the job, that is the point. There's a lot MORE than relays in the Massoth unit.

I have explained in detail the major shortcomings of the suggestion. MAJOR. The suggestion does not address major issues that are needed in a DCC system.

I don't tell you why a certain modeling technique is better than another. I don't tell you to build outdoor structures of water soluble material, that would be silly right?

I don't tell you to make a smoke unit by lighting a fire right?

This is that silly. You are an expert in that arena, and I am not.


And with all due respect, you have become the perfect example of what I have stated several times, that less experienced people might think this is a reasonable solution in DCC.



It's not.

Greg
 
#46 ·
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Jun 2011 02:13 PM
I'm all for free thinking... but the components you are using are way outclassed by the requirements and needs of the system. Not a little, but WAY outclassed.

Greg



"If it gets one person to think, it accomplishes a goal."

The thinking doesn't necessarily have to apply to this particular instance, but it may. You really don't know until you try it, and I don't expect that. Or it may "turn on the light" for someone in a somewhat similar situation.

I guess that's why I'm a Scientist and you're an Engineer. Different thought process and mentality.

"There's a lot MORE than relays in the Massoth unit."

And you know that I've posted a circuit that duplicates the Massoth unit (before it came out) using just relays, gaps, and diodes.
 
#47 ·
So you are a Scientist? Cool, I have degrees in Physics and Computer Science... I am a Scientist too... big whoopee.... it's not what is on paper, it's what you do with it. I was teaching Physics in 1972 to freshmen and juniors on college... I think I qualify. I have a patent in cellular technology... I think that qualifies.... How do you know what my thought processes and mentality are?

Take a breath before you believe you are superior.... I've met a lot of people way smarter than me in my life, and they have never said anything insulting about being an engineer, nor that their thought processes were better or even different.... they never had to use this gambit to prove their point, they use facts and logic.

So, you have dissected a Massoth unit and it is made of just relays, gaps and diodes?

Well, if you even bothered to read the massoth manual you would see it can work both ways, short circuit detection, or occupancy detection.

In any case, mentioning "cloning" the functions of the Massoth (which you really have not done) is not the range of functions we have been discussing, about "intelligent" short circuit detection, like the PSxAR, and the Zimo, and most likely the Massoth.

Just because a Yugo and a Ferrari are cars, they are not doing the same job.

In this case, you need to come up with:

Short circuit detection
controlled reapplication of power
delayed reapplication of power
detection of common surges vs. a real short
fast switching (faster than a mechanical device) of power
remote programmability
remote configuration of thresholds of operation

Yes you have come up with something that can switch polarity...

You have done only very little of the "job" and it's really a worthless suggestion... If anyone thinks that they should follow your advice and use your circuit instead of a commercial autoreverser at $45 then you have indeed done the hobby and your fellow modelers a disservice.

But, you may win the battle of words... I'm done in here.... if you want to continue to expend energy on this subject, be my guest, I'll no longer visit this thread...

There you go, you win...

Greg
 
#48 ·
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 Jun 2011 04:00 PM
So you are a Scientist? Cool, I have degrees in Physics and Computer Science... I am a Scientist too... big whoopee.... it's not what is on paper, it's what you do with it. I was teaching Physics in 1972 to freshmen and juniors on college... I think I qualify. I have a patent in cellular technology... I think that qualifies.... How do you know what my thought processes and mentality are?

Greg



I never said a Scientist was superior to an Engineer, they just think differently as would an artist or CPA. Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. Nothing more to be said here.
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
Image
Thanks everyone for your input. Tony from DCC Specialties has replied to my e-mail. Yes you can use both normal DCC and the analog address 00 with the PSxAR and NOT cause any damage.

Quote Tony: "Phil, You can do that the DC will not harm the PSXAR & the analog address will do, mimic, the same as DC"

Regards and many thanks
Image


Phil
 
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#50 ·
Posted By RGS K27-461 on 24 Jun 2011 06:22 AM

Quote Tony: "Phil, You can do that the DC will not harm the PSXAR & the analog address will do, mimic, the same as DC"





Was that the complete reply?

Rather strange that they warn against using the unit with either DC or address 00 in their documentation and suddenly it's not an issue.

I also know one person who damaged his unit and that was supposedly because he switched to DC power and had missed the warning on the DCC Specialties instructions.

Knut


PS: How do I get rid of this 'garbage' at the bottom after the quote?
It didn't even show up in either my original post (before I sent it) or now when I try to edit that post.
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
Sorry Dennis, The garble bottom of my last post is that I cut the answers directly from my e-mail and posted. Won't do that again.
Image


Sorry

Phil
 
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#54 ·
The problem most likely started when Phil most likely copied his quote from Tony's eMail which most likely was received in Outlook and then pasted it into his reply. Then when you quoted his reply, this made things get worse, next you edited the quoted reply text which partially deleted some of the mso (i.e. Microsoft Office) HTML and then posted it.

As Dwight stated, the mso HTML will not display in the MLS HTML editors content area while in the Normal view mode (i.e. the editor's default mode), so the only way to see it is to switch to the HTML view mode and delete it.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
Posted By krs on 24 Jun 2011 07:28 AM
Posted By RGS K27-461 on 24 Jun 2011 06:22 AM

Quote Tony: "Phil, You can do that the DC will not harm the PSXAR & the analog address will do, mimic, the same as DC"





Was that the complete reply?

Rather strange that they warn against using the unit with either DC or address 00 in their documentation and suddenly it's not an issue.

I also know one person who damaged his unit and that was supposedly because he switched to DC power and had missed the warning on the DCC Specialties instructions.

Knut


PS: How do I get rid of this 'garbage' at the bottom after the quote?
It didn't even show up in either my original post (before I sent it) or now when I try to edit that post.


Knut, no it was the 2 short answer from 2 separate e-mails as i didn't think Tony understood my first.


1st email in full with answer.
Hi, I'm Looking at Purchasing a few PSxAR for my LargeScale Layout and I have been informed that the PSxAR cannot handle the '00' address on a DCC System. Can you Advise me if this is correct. If I run a normal DC Loco on the DCC Layout using the '00' address to run a DC Loco can the reverse sections remain connected to the PSxAR & just NOT allow the '00' address loco to enter any reverse sections or do i need to remove the input or output from the PSxAR when using '00' address.
Tony's first reply: Phil, You can do that the DC will not Harm the PSxAR.


I wasn't happy with the reply as I didn't mention using DC power only a DC(analog loco)

My 2nd E-mail in full to DCC Specialties - Tony.
Thanks Tony, I'm Not trying to run DC power just an analog Loco on a DCC Layout using the '00' address to run that loco. The only reason I ask is your manual for the PSxAR on page 13 says you cannot use the analog '00' address. My solution was not allow any locos DCC or analog to run through the reverse sections when using the '00' address. or my 2nd option was not to power up the PSxAR at all whilst using the analog '00' address. Sorry if I have misunderstood you. Thanks Phil.

Tony's 2nd reply: The analog address will do, mimic, the same as DC.

Those are my e-mails and Tony's replies in full

Sorry for any confusion, but I did seek clarification re their manual clearly stating that it could not handle the '00' address.

Hope this clears it up.

Regards

Phil
 
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#56 ·
Hi Phil,

I was just reading about that PSxAR module on one of the retailer sites and it says you need to add a heat sink for anything over 10amps. It looks like the Massoth unit is around double the price but has an enclosure, can handle 15A as-is, has the option of using the short or non-short methods, and comes with all the hookup parts needed and can you know for sure it can deal with the analogue loco. Seems to me the extra $50 is worth it?

Keith
 
#57 ·
Phil,

I found both your email queries clear, precise and non-ambiguous.

Can't say the same for Tony's replies.

What does : "The analog address will do, mimic, the same as DC" mean?

To me all it says that you can use the analogue address to run an analogue (DC only) loco because that "mimics" for the analogue address what DC power would have been for the analogue loco.
Not really true because you will destroy a loco with a Faulhaber or coreless motor, but let's leave that aside for now.
Neither reply addresses your key question where you specifically refer to a page in their instructions that states that the unit is not compatible with address "00".
Actually, in the first reply Tony says that you can use DC power as well (as long as you don't run the through the reverse sections?)

So what happens if in either situation you try to run the loco through the reverse section by mistake?
Does the trains just stop?
The instructions also state that connecting the DCC input to the output terminals by mistake will damage the unit.
With DC operation you can end up connecting DC to the output terminals of the reverser if a switch is thrown wrong.
I think a clearer and more detailed answer would really have been appropriate specifically addressing what the two warnings in the instructions are all about - no DC operation on page one and no "00" operation on page 13.

Knut
 
#58 ·
Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 24 Jun 2011 12:01 PM
Hi Phil,

I was just reading about that PSxAR module on one of the retailer sites and it says you need to add a heat sink for anything over 10amps. It looks like the Massoth unit is around double the price but has an enclosure, can handle 15A as-is, has the option of using the short or non-short methods, and comes with all the hookup parts needed and can you know for sure it can deal with the analogue loco. Seems to me the extra $50 is worth it?

Keith
Keith,
Check the PSxAR write up on Greg's website.

Very nicely done, covers the additional heat sinks, enclosure and other items.

Knut
 
#59 ·
Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 24 Jun 2011 12:01 PM
Hi Phil,

I was just reading about that PSxAR module on one of the retailer sites and it says you need to add a heat sink for anything over 10amps. It looks like the Massoth unit is around double the price but has an enclosure, can handle 15A as-is, has the option of using the short or non-short methods, and comes with all the hookup parts needed and can you know for sure it can deal with the analogue loco. Seems to me the extra $50 is worth it?

Keith
 
#60 ·
Posted By Cougar Rock Rail on 24 Jun 2011 12:01 PM
Hi Phil,

I was just reading about that PSxAR module on one of the retailer sites and it says you need to add a heat sink for anything over 10amps. It looks like the Massoth unit is around double the price but has an enclosure, can handle 15A as-is, has the option of using the short or non-short methods, and comes with all the hookup parts needed and can you know for sure it can deal with the analogue loco. Seems to me the extra $50 is worth it?

Keith
Keith: I could not agree more and I might add: it takes all the guess work out of the picture.

Mohammed
http://www.allaboutlgb.com
 
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