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"(No) horrible news from Chama (anymore!!)"

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#44 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group.

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts.


Shouldn't you be watching Fox news instead of posting inane rants? And PITA? Do you mean PETA? An animal wellfare org that has nothing to do with the environment. Yikes.
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Structural engineers have been out to survey the trestle and their report is supposed to be in the hands of the comissioners by the end of the week. The ties and rail are a complete write-off. How much damage to the actual structure will have to wait for the report.
 
#46 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Posted By fendercat on 27 Jun 2010 11:25 PM
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group.

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts.




Shouldn't you be watching Fox news instead of posting inane rants? And PITA? Do you mean PETA? An animal wellfare org that has nothing to do with the environment. Yikes.




Oh my, a first poster and miffed about PITA.
Rant on:
Yes PETA my mistake, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals
Image
, I was only commenting on the initial post, and having lived in an area that has had car dealerships and housing developments burned by the knucklehaeds in ELF I would not have been surprised if this had been a deliberate attack, which prompted my initial comments based only on the info avaliable at that the time of the initial post, fortunatly it looks to have been an accidental fire and have modified my stance since then, read the rest of the posts please before commenting.

(edit) most of my PITA rant removed )

I like this quote:
"To those people who say, `My father is alive because of animal experimentation,’ I say `Yeah, well, good for you. This dog died so your father could live.’ Sorry, but I am just not behind that kind of trade off."
Bill Maher, Endorser of PETA - US magazine (February 1, 1999), When Ol' Bill gets sick and needs the latest greatest treatment that was perfected by animal testing or uses animal by-products as ingrediants, do you think he will just roll over and die and make room for the next generation, or use every medical trick in the book regardless of what animal testing proceedures or by-products were used to perfect that treatment in order to gain a few more years here? yep I thought so too, they will always choose life over dogma, and rightly so.

Someone should explain to Bill that one of PETAs Executives is diabetic and takes insulin, that was the result of years of animal testing (edit) so I guess its a case of whats wrong for you is OK for them.
 
#47 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Vic,

I am a DAILY user of Humalog insulin in my Insulin Pump. I guess it would be considered a "synthetic" insulin in your context. But as far as I know this insulin is cloned from HUMAN insulin-no animals are involved. The "old" insulin was made from insulin taken from beef and pork in the stockyards. When the supply was running low about twenty years ago, research was done with "recombinant DNA"-DNA from two or more sources that do not normally combine. Just to set the record straight. Now lets get this thread back to Lobato Trestle and what can be done to get the Cumbres and Toltec back to operating again. DERAIL FIXED!
 
#48 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Posted By vsmith on 24 Jun 2010 09:17 AM
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group.

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts.

What if a road crew came over the bridge before they could be notified of the damage and it collapsed killing them, it would now be a murder investigation, this is a very serious event. No-one just dynamites a bridge without intent to harm. I hope the FBI is on the scene.

(edit) Can someone please confirm if this was fire damage or an intentional attack?

Just because it's someone's first post, it does not mean he cannot say something intelligent.

On the the "wild ass rant factor", I score your post pretty darn high. You could have stated that you wondered IF it was a terrorist attack ....

No, you say it "sounds more like", then proceed to go off the deep end on and on, just like your response just above... tons of words about PETA and environment conscious people.

Nope, the "reactive words" are in your posts Victor. Way too much "gain" on something purely speculative...

Greg
 
#49 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 28 Jun 2010 10:11 AM
Posted By vsmith on 24 Jun 2010 09:17 AM
Are you sure this was done on a lark? Sounds more like enviromental terrorism to me, someone having a tizzsy-fit that those coal burning antiques were polluting their pure mountain air. Sounds like the kind of brain-f**k mentality groups like ELF or PITA spew. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of stamement issued from some supposed "Freinds of the Earth" group.

IF it was dynamited, then its TERRORISM pure and simple, and the knuckleheads who did this should be sent to Gitmo, or better yet put on a plane, and dropped of in a Shi-ite neighborhood in downtown Baghdad wearing nothing but "I love Saddam" T-shirts.

What if a road crew came over the bridge before they could be notified of the damage and it collapsed killing them, it would now be a murder investigation, this is a very serious event. No-one just dynamites a bridge without intent to harm. I hope the FBI is on the scene.

(edit) Can someone please confirm if this was fire damage or an intentional attack?[/b]

Just because it's someone's first post, it does not mean he cannot say something intelligent.

On the the "wild ass rant factor", I score your post pretty darn high. You could have stated that you wondered IF it was a terrorist attack ....

No, you say it "sounds more like", then proceed to go off the deep end on and on, just like your response just above... tons of words about PETA and environment conscious people.

Nope, the "reactive words" are in your posts Victor. Way too much "gain" on something purely speculative...

Greg



Ahhhh Greg, kindly see my red marks above, I kinda did imply just that when I said IF it was an attack, then as more info come online asked for confirmation whether it was accidental or intentional damage...

And to the rest of the fine folks here, Sorry about the PITA rant, kinda a sore spot for me. I have edited out most of my post, but not all of it.

Anyway I'm going to count myself out of this conversation, lest I get myself into even more trouble for having a certain position.
 
#50 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Yes, I did read that, and you did ADD that later... but honestly, your post still reads overractive and like a rant...

I was more reacting to your PETA rant (not PITA)....I think it was misplaced. Not wrong. Misplaced. So it looked like a long attack on a person.

(by the way, I completely agree with your point of view !!!! )

Regards, Greg
 
#52 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Posted By afinegan on 25 Jun 2010 11:17 AM
You can see heat damage and expansion on the rail in this picture, so the rail was definitely deforming and pushed around, also there might have been a big draft going across the bridge and you coal and spirits fired guys know what happens when you increase draft, HEAT!

Image



This is a fun discussion, forensics from pictures, but until people go there in person with the right equipment, we are all just doing "bench forensics" lol (like bench racing hehe) (even though on a side note of only visiting the place once, it makes my heart sink whenever anything happens to any of my favorite railroads.)



Thermal expansion calculations are based on a couple of things. First is uniform and complete heat of the entire object. I don't know how heavy the rail is or how long or how hot the fire burned to cause the required level of heat. Second, expansion assumes no other forces acting on the object. The rail is spiked down to the ties, and it is resisted on the ende by the ajoining rails. You can't automaticall assume a 100' length of rail raised 685 debrees plus the ambient temp will expand 6" if there is resistance.

Don't use the fact that creosote burns at 2000 degrees to draw a conclusion. If that rail got heated unifromly to 2000 degrees, then it is likely the whole span should be severely heat damaged and should be condemned.

Based on Andy's photo, I still wonder why the gaurd rails are not similarly damged. Their bends appear to be more uniform over the length.

I saw the photo of the fire. And there is youtube video out too ( http://www.youtube.com/user/ctsrrvideos) Man, them ties burn hot, don't they.
 
#54 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Bob,

The fact is you CAN GUARANTEE it will expand the 6" in your example. It is simply a question of where the expansion will go. Your assumption the the ends are fixed is correct. Please read my post on page two of this thread.

I also addressed the lesser damage to the guard rails - they are free to move linearly along the length (only constrained by the friction of the spikes and ties).

I understand there is an engineering company doing a damage assay to determine the extent of the damages. I will wait and see....

Bob C.
 
#55 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Lightening . . .

This time of year in Colorado/N.M. high country afternoon thunder storms with lightening are pretty common and often sever, sometimes afternoons a few days in a row. I grew up in Colorado late spring and summer I remember driving in the mountains having to pull to side of the road the rain, such a deluge and so hard, you could not see the car in front of you. Waited it out, staying in the car to be reasonably safe. The Lobato bridge is steel girder with I-beam steel bents and wood decking only. If I remember correctly from riding C&TS only the deck is wood laid atop the steel girders with little or no wood below or between the girders (no matter); Given only the deck is wood a deck fire would not seem, save only some possible minor rail warp, to cause this destruction.


Some visual notes from the Ashpit.com photos.


1. The wood at the point of sever rail damage is where ties burned through. The rail also deform down, I believe, consistent with a strike from above.


2. The destruction also appears to be roughly in the center of the bridge length, also I think would be consistent with lightening attracted to a steel span in a large open ground area. The steel also being more conductive than earth on either side. The scientists, engineers and phyists will ahve to seight in on this point - never the less, I still vote for the source of the damage being lightening.


3. The fire appears to have burned from the point of rail damage out toward either end, with wind direction why one end burned less.
4. Concerning vandalism, who would crawl out to the center of the bridge, to the highest point above the ground, under the pressure of committing a crime and potential/paranoia of getting caught.

The bridge was suspect to begin with with double headed locos separated, only one over the bridge at a time. Given damage, push-(may have)-come-to-shove with structural/civil engineers declaring any repairs had to address both damage and safety. But it sounds like, a return to service in a short time, it's been determined that only the deck will have to be replaced.
 
#56 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Chris,

I had not considered lightning as a source of ignition, but based on your version blended with the version of 'an explosion', it makes very good sense.

1. I agree that the point of ignition is where the greatest rail damage and most complete burn of the ties is located, but I don't agree with any downward deformation of the rail.

2. As for the location of a lightning strike, I have no evidence of the logic you propose. I fact, there are hundreds of cases where power companies have located lightning rods to protect their equipment and the strike has been anyplace but the lightning rod. The more or less centered location is a fluke in my opinion.

3 & 4. Your assumption/logics are relatively sound.

As for the rail damage, power companies and chemical companies that use steam or other sources of HOT fluids spend thousands of dollars on their piping systems to make certain that the pipes do not over stress and fail from thermal expansion. Earlier in this thread I ran through the math using a 400 foot span and a 730 degree temperature rise leading to over 24" of thermal expansion. If I factor the heat to the alleged 2,000 degrees burning temperature of creosote ties, the expansion becomes 67.62 inches. That is over five feet.

It is my belief that as the rail heated, the spikes in the burning ties restrained the rail from buckling. As the fire burned longer and the rail got hotter, the stress of the thermal expansion got greater until the spikes at the origin point of the fire failed. When they failed all the pressure from the expansion was released at one point forcing the rail outward making the 'blister' shape in the rail. The intense heat also lowered the tensile strength enough that the sudden release also whiplashed causing the rail to physically fail (break) at the point of highest bending.

My background is in mechanical/structural engineering (no I am not an engineer), but have spend many years around air pollution control equipment on the boiler exhaust of steel mills and power plants and have a fair amount of experience with thermal expansion and heat related issues. As I said earlier, thermal expansion WILL GO SOMEWHERE. In this case, the point of failure. My greater concern is the girder structure itself. If in fact the ties burned that hot, there will be temperature related damage to the top flange and upper portion of the web plate. According to the American Institute of Steel Construction, steel begins to weaken (loose tensile strength) at 650 degrees, far less than the 2,000 degrees related above. Depending on how much damage, it may be possible to add additional reinforcing to the existing structure to make it again safe for rail traffic.

As for the bridge being suspect, two factors come to mind. First, it was designed and installed before the 'K' series of locomotives were put into service. Second, it has been in service for how many years??? It surely is not of current design or materials. I believe it is a testament to the engineers of the day that it is still in service at all, let alone to have a restriction that only one locomotive pushing the limits of the design being allowed on the bridge at a time. For my money, if it needs to be replaced, rebuild it EXACTLY the way it is. It is safe for one locomotive which is the normal consist for the line. Only on special occasions are double or triple headers run, which just means special rules for the run. More fun for the rail fan.

I would also be interested in the source of your information regarding the replacement of only the decking. I have not seen any such information. Gary Armistead posted a memo from the Cumbres and Toltec regarding the evaluation of the bridge, and I am sure they will publish a statement after the evaluation is done. If you have an official statement from the Cumbres and Toltec, please share it with us.

My tuppence worth.

Bob C
 
#58 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

It is more probable for lightning to strike where a lightning rod is NOT, than where one IS. A lightning rod is not designed to conduct a lightning bolt/strike! It is designed to slowly dissipate the electrical charge over time and thus PREVENT the lightning strike from occurring. Thus where there are no lightning rods there is a greater chance of a lightning strike. Since lightning rods are generally at the highest point in a general area, it can be struck by a bolt if the charge builds up faster than it can be dissipated, so they are often of large and heavy construction. But even so, in the process of conducting millions of Volts and thousands of Amps, major portions of the material can be vaporized. An effective lightning rod does not really need to be of heavy construction (electrically), it only needs to be structurally sound (so it won't blow away or fall down due to wind), have a good, large area, electrical connection with the ground, and sharp points on the upper end.
 
#59 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

Last year after the NGRC in Denver, my wife and I went to Chama and spent a couple nites in a wonderful B&B across the street from the yard. We rode 484 out of Chama. I had the only seat on the back platform of the Parlor Car. Most of my photos were taken from between the marker light and the side of the car. Below are my photos crossing the Laboto Tressle. Looking back, you can see the trestle is not far off the main road. See truck in background.

Image


Image


Image


Image


I truly hope it is minimal and thank all those invovled in extinguishing the fire. This is my favorite railroad and want it to survive for all future generations.
 
#60 ·
RE: Horrible news from Chama!!!

O.K. I guess I will have to put my uninformed ideas in (I am a mathematician, not an engineer).
Looking at the deformation of the rails I had a thought (always a dangerous thing). Could it be that the running rails, being on the outside, heated unevenly across the rail? Thus the inside expanded faster than the outside and forced the rails outwards. While the guard rails being on the inside of the fire heated more evenly across the rails, making them expand evenly and thus not being forced to move sideways. Could this explain the two types of deformity?
As I said, when I get a thought it is dangerous.
 
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