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markoles

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Guys,

I need to go to Toronto next month on business. Given the recent events with aviation, I don't want to deal with a 3 hour wait for security to have a crappy crampy couple of flights.

My option is to drive from here to Rochester and board the Maple Leaf to Toronto. The question is: is the lake effect snow really that bad and does New York State do a good job of keeping the Thruway clear? Spring/Summer, no sweat, but January? The train shows 5 hours each way, driving would be a little more than 3, not including customs. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark
 
#2 ·
Yes, lake effect snow CAN be THAT bad.
And yes, NYDOT tries to stay on top of things, at least in my neck of the woods. Problem is not the snow plows. Problems are the morons that thing their SUV is capable of going 75 in blinding snow. Once they fly of the road, things start to back up quickly.

You have to check the weather map very closely. Sun to miserable truly can be separated by one mile.
I'd recommend coming up rte 15 through Corning, then rte 390 to Rochester, then take I90. The area south of Buffalo tends to get hit more often than the route between Rochester and Buffalo. However, like last year, things can be different....

Don't know how reliable Amtrak is during snow.

Martin (dodging most of the lake effect snows by staying in the southern tier of NY...)
 
#4 ·
Mark,
yes, generally the expressways and the Thruway across western NY are kept quite clear..
sometimes the plows cant keep up with the snow though..if its unusually heavy snow.

Rochester and Buffalo get lake effect snow probably an average of one out of five days, this time of year..
your odds of having clear driving are good..but its also easy to hit a bad day..
Buffalo gets more snow than Rochester, on average..

Driving to Rochester to pick up the Maple Leaf is a basically good idea..
except I dont think I would leave my car overnight at the Rochester Amtrak station..
(or Syracuse..or Buffalo..) so thats a concern..

I would suggest driving straight to Niagara Falls (Ontario) to get VIA rail to Toronto, but the time you do that,
you are 80% of the way there and you might as well just keep driving to Toronto! ;)

But as for snow..driving from PA straight up to Rochester, you arent likely to hit the major Lake Effect belts..
you should be in good shape..
and once you get beyond Buffalo you are also clear of the Lake Effect..
the tricky bit is getting between Rochester and Buffalo..
if the the mood strikes, the lake effect snow gods can be unkind..

overall, your plan is fine..but the parking situation really throws a wrench in the works..
there is no fenced, secure parking at the Rochester station..
just an open lot in the middle of downtown..not good.
(thats Amtrak for you..
Image


Im not sure if Amtrak in Buffalo has secure parking..maybe.. but again..if you drive to Buffalo,
there is no sense in getting a train to Tornoto..its easier, quicker and cheaper to just keep driving..


Personally, IMO, if you are driving to Rochester or Buffalo anyway, you might as well just keep driving straight to Toronto..

Scot
 
#6 ·
It takes *serious* snow to shut down Amtrak..
like a "once a year" storm..or more realistically, a "once every 5 years" storm..
An average snow storm of 6" to 1 foot is nothing..wont have any effect of rail travel.
you really need the rare 2 to 3 foot snowfall to slow things down..
those storms are rare..

your average lake-effect snowfall of 4 to 6 inches hardly registers..its a non-event.
Amtrak will be running..unless its a major blizzard.. "normal" snow isnt a big deal.

Scot
 
#7 ·
Mark,
As a Western NY'r I agree with Scot and Martin. If you are going to drive as far as Rochester or buffalo finish it by driving. Customs is what it is. I've been wtching teh weather radars lately and the snow bands can be as far as a whole state east of us off Lake Erie covering most of PA. IF you do chose to drive to Buffalo and take Amtrak as Scot says the lot is small and not gaurded BUt it is in the middle of Cheektowaga near the Airport (as well as Niagara Hobby & Craft Mart) and several hotels and the largest Mall in the area. As was said though, for another 20 minutes of driving hit Ontario and take the trian from there or drive another 45 minutes from NF Ontario and your there. The Lake Effect is hit and miss and they are pretty good about saying When they are getting it and how long is you catch the Buffalo TV stations. Should be abel to access that info online I'd geuss? They tell us now when adn where the snow bands will hit lately which is helpful and even then things change. Over Christmas the predicted Ice storm was not to be and we had smooth driving up to Buffalo and home to the South towns (Southern Tier) again.

Good luck either way! If you need shelter you've got it here but it's a little out of your way.

Chas
 
#8 ·
All good advise from the above guys. The NY State Highway Dept. has the best equipment money can buy... Ask the taxpayers.

I used to travel from the Ithaca, NY area to the Toronto area at least once a month. Really helps if your appointment(s) can be flexible.


If not, leave early. Maybe a day early. If it gets really nasty, find a motel, ask where the best local Hot Wings are and enjoy yourself while the Highway dept. does what they get paid for. Except for a really extended storm, the roads will be good in the morning.


I always worried more about Toronto. It's Canada's version of LA traffic with a possible addition of a snowstorm. Eight lanes in each direction in the middle of a snowstorm is not funny. The traffic is so heavy a salt truck would cause a pileup for going too slow. The Don Valley Parkway (better know as the Don Valley parking lot) does not move at all.


I always stayed outside the metro area to avoid the peak traffic rush hours if the appointments allowed it. The commuter rail system there is GREAT!


Craig
 
#9 ·
Let me get my two cents in, as a Buffalo boy, now 20 years in Rochester, used to live in Syracuse, college in Ithaca, etc.

I have no problem leaving my car at the Roch. Amtrak station for a couple weeks at a time. Done it many times, as in Texas Eagle and SW Chief; worst that's happened is I had to brush off a foot of snow. Never even seen any unsavory characters hanging around - it's too bland for even the bums. The eastern Amtrak station at Buffalo (Depew) is a couple miles from the airport, in a somewhat isolated spot. Just like the Roch. station, seems rather invisible if you're not looking for a train.

Very unlikely that Amtrak won't be able to get you through. Back during the infamous Blizzard of '77, the wife, kid and I were in NYC, airports closed, got to Grand Central (Penn Station, fooey!). Amtrak was a bit behind schedule but we made it to Bflo. My son and I were even invited to visit the "cockpit" to see the snow fly by. (A bad train trip is ALWAYS better than a good plane ride.)

To avoid some lake effect storms off Lake Erie, which sometimes creep up from the Southtowns into downtown Bflo, slip around Bflo's northeast suburbs by taking I-190 north past Niagara Falls and the Lewiston-Queenston bridge to the QEW to the 401 into Toronto. Two hours Bflo to TO if you're comfortable driving fast. If you're not doing 130 Kph, get out of the left lane! (100 Kph=62Mph) Try to time your arrival into TO late. Only two roads into or out of Toronto. Make sure you have enough gas for idling if it's rush hour(s) - four litres=about a gallon. And if you plan on ever returning to the U.S., make sure you have adequate identification for the trip back: Passport, valid driver's license with photo, etc. It's not the border I knew as a kid. Bridge crossing normally takes only a few minutes in line but holidays often see waits of an hour. FYI - Canadians have a few holidays WE don't know about!

As has been noted, the NY Thruway (I-90) has the most humungous snow plows in the universe. If they can't handle it, wait twelve hours and things'll get moving again. But the big storms almost never come without plenty of advance warning. Since local radio stations can no longer be depended on to have a live person give you the latest forecast (common practice to record those forecasts 12-18 hours ahead), I'd recommend a $15 "weather" radio. The NOAA frequencies will have the information you need. To sum it up: Bflo has only two kinds of winter weather - nasty (5%), and no big deal (95%). With a little bit of planning, you might come back with a great story or two: "The plow took two guys to operate....had a blade on each side big enough to scoop up a Hummer!!"

jack
 
#10 ·
(sorry to go off on a tangent here)

but Chas and Jack both just said something that caught my eye.."south towns"..referring to the southern tier..
I am Southern Tier born and raised! Waverly, NY..halfway between Corning and Binghamton, right on the NY-PA border.
(I often tell people my hometown is Waverly NY-Sayre PA!)
My entire life has been spent driving up and down route 17!
I have never, until just now, heard the Southern Tier referred to as "south towns"..
must be a Buffalo-specific phrase! ;)
interesting..
probably far-west southern tier? Jamestown, Olean, Gowanda..that kind of thing?

Another fun Buffalo linguistic quirk..(My wife grew up in North Tonawanda, which is how I found this out)
referring to the expressways around Buffalo, they say "The 190".."The 290"..
"You get on the 290 and head west"..
In Rochester, we dont use "the"...ever...we say "You get on 390 south, then take 490 west"
there is no "the" in Rochester when speaking of the expressways..
fascinating no? ;)

In college, I did an unofficial study on the "Soda vs. Pop" line..
I went to SUNY New Paltz with a bunch of kids from Lawn Guy Lind..
On Lawn Guy Lind and in New York City they say "Soda"...they have never even heard of "Pop"..
Rochester and Buffalo are "Pop"..
where I grew up, Waverly, we are also "Pop"..
turns out the demarcation line is roughly along route 81, Syracuse down to Binghamton and into PA..
east of the line is Soda..west of the line is Pop..

On another railroad forum, we recently discussed Route 17 as "The Quickway"..
I had never heard of "The Quickway" before..turns out thats a far Soutth-Eastern NY term..
way east of Binghamton, approaching New York City..
out here in the West, its the "Southern Tier Expressway"..
I will never get used to "I-86"..my whole life it has been Route 17..
If they ever remove the "Southern Tier Expy" Indian head signs, I want one! :)

Image


just some random Southern Tier and Western NY trivia for you all! ;)

Scot
 
#11 ·
"You can take the boy out of Buffalo, but you can't take Buffalo out of the boy."

In Bflo (sometimes pronounced "Baah-flo") the southtowns are the suburbs immediately south of Buffalo: Lackawanna, Hamburg, Orchard Park (ya know, Ralph Wilson stadium - locally known as "the Ralph"), East Aurora (there is no N,S,or W Aurora). We think of Southern Tier as Salamanca, Jamestown (birthplace of Lucille Ball), Corning, etc. Sorry if anyone was confused by the local terminology.

My first wife was a Syracusian and it took me years to understand that her idea of "soda" was pop without a scoop of ice cream.

Note to people from other parts of country: you really should visit Western and Central New York. There are so many reasons why so many of us are still here. Sunshine and heat are NOT what life is all about.

jack
founder of the Cheektowaga Central RailRoad
 
#13 ·
Scot,
Southern Tier exists for rochester just like Southern Tier exists for Buffalo and as a Suny Alfred (All Fried) Graduate I can tell you we discussed this to no end. Since Bflo has towns that are relatively built up to the south and they get tons of snow they became the southtowns in the weather reports and Chatauqua County and Cattaraugus County and sometimes even Allegany County became the Southern Tier IF you are from Buffalo. If you are from Cattaraugus county though it is the Twin Tiers rfering to the Counties of Cattaraugus and Allegany in NY and Potter and McKean in PA. With most of the concentration around the Allegany River and Rt 17 (I agree with Scot about the signs, I want one) these counties function at times very similar to the Waverly Sayre area I'm sure?

Jack ,I also agree with you that there is so much more to living in upstate NY, both good and bad. It might explain why no less than three of the Large Scale Mail order places are in NY state? Hmmm?

Enjoying not having to shovel here in the heart of the Enchanted Mountains where we tend to be somewhat protected right here in Olean and Allegany from the Lake effect snows that blanket the rest of Western NY.

http://enchantedmountains.info/
 
#15 ·
Posted By wchasr on 30 Dec 2009 04:56 AM
these counties function at times very similar to the Waverly Sayre area I'm sure?





Chas, yep! very much the same as you described..although not so much on a "whole county" basis..
Waverly Sayre & Athens are basically one community, which happens to have a state line running through it..
the three towns combined are called "The Valley" locally..

(taking this back to railroads) as Deb and I were driving down to Waverly on Christmas day, I was pointing out remnants of the DL&W mainline to her..
(she pretends to be interested! ;)
and I realized..2010 is the 50th Anniversary of the demise of the Lackawanna!

thats the perfect year to finish my "Tour of the DL&W in NY state"..
im going to make a point of documenting what is left of the DL&W mainline from Binghamton to Buffalo..
I finished Binghamton to Nichols a few years ago..but I think I will just start over from scratch..

Scot
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Wow,

I am glad I asked this question about taking the train!! There's a lot of colorful information here and that is great!!

I should have given you more information about my intended plan:
We have friends that live just south of Geneva, right on lake Seneca. I am planning to drive to their house, spend the night, then head to my appoitnment in Milton, ON (a suburb of Toronot) the next day. Bing maps tell me it is about a 3 hr drive. But, if the weather looks really really bad, I could park it in Rochester and catch a train to a stop before Toronto. For driving, I will be in my front wheel drive sedan. Here in south central PA, we don't get much snow, so I don't have snow tires on the car, but it is a manual transmission, so I should have better control in the snow than an automatic.

4-6 inches might not be a major event for you guys, but here it can be a problem. Not sure if I really want to risk it with a relatively new car.

Mark
 
#17 ·
I did wonder where that 3 hours came from. Milton is South and West of the Metro area. Should not be a problem. I always stayed in Burlington. Nice motel on the Lake (you can see it from the bridge) attached restaurant is very good.

I would not park the car. Those NY highway folks are very prepared for the snow in that area, as are the Canucks.


Leave yourself a little extra time, enjoy the drive, have some really good Chicken Wings.
Image


Craig
 
#18 ·
Mark,
since you're coming through Geneva,
You're likely coming through Corning (wave as you go by...). If you come up Rte 15, you'll go right past the NS ex EL engine terminal in Gang Mills.
In Geneva is a neat hobby shop. little in G-scale, but big in Lehigh Valley. I think you'll go right past it if you go on 14 trough town. Lakecity Hobbies or something like that.
And you get the real deal, the Fingerlakes Railroad right there on Rte 20. with a bit of luck there'll be on of the NYC/LV painted engines sitting around or switching in the yard.

Once you're in Geneva, you still have two options depending what the weather is: you can take 14 north to hit I-90, or in the case of a close-to-the-lake snow squall, you can take Rte 20 west.

Lastly, you do know that you'll be passing close to Ridge Road station, when you start travelling west of Rochester, right?

Enjoy the trip,
Martin

PS: come back in the summer, and enjoy wine, food, the glass museum show, and other neat stuff in the area... At least that what keeps me going when I look at the window right now!
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Martin,

I'll wave as I go! We've made the trip several times to Geneva. My friend is a vetenarian and has a clinic in an old seafood restaraunt. The railroad tracks are literally at his doorstep. There is a coal train that rolls through late at night!! I tried to make it up there when they were running one of their blues and brews trains. Seemed like that would be a lot of fun!

We've done the wine tasting in the summer and early winter. Both times were a blast. Have never done the glass show. Yes, I do know I'll be close to ridge road. I suppose I should stop by and say hello.. I did find that train shop in Geneva once, as well. Bought some nickle silver HO scale wheels for a brass New Haven steamer purchased on Ebay.

Thanks again guys!

Mark
 
#20 ·
I'm a Buffalo expat, but I go back to renew my visa once a year, so I think I'm qualified to comment. Anyway, I believe "south towns" are places like Lackawana, West Seneca, Hamburg, Orchard Park, Elma and Eden (to name a few), which reside in or near the snow belt, home to dreaded lake effect snow. You can be driving down a road with a light dusting of snow, cross some sort of weather front line and suddenly find yourself mired in white stuff. Like throwing a switch. Been there, done that, which is why I'm in Maui right now :)
 
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wchasr
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