What packing compound should I use when working on cylinder seals/gaskets?
Packing Compound
RioGrandeFan
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Hi Zubi-- Your comments are appreciated. When I took my Temp Measurements it was done with the Lokeys steamed "on the bench" not running. True, internally, water temps closer to the Flue would be a bit higher, but with the "equalizing" boiling action, uniform temperatures "warmer spots" of different boiler parts would be consistent. As I recall, I did measure the temps of the Cylinders, which were always about the same readings as the Smokebox Shells..... I did not record those temps..... If running, the temps would be approximately the same as the Water Temp/PSI Data of the Steam Tables, I would think. Other than the usual discolorations from Steam Cylinder Oil, I have never have noticed any smokebox paint discoloration from scorching (all my Lokeys have uninsulated Smokeboxes, too!). And, I have tried various "Hi-Temp" paints on two rebuilt Lokey Smokeboxes, but the stuff always was quite easy to scuff & chip..... so I now use ordinary Rustoleum or Krylon Flat Black spray can paint which surprisingly seems to hold up well, with better scuff & chip resistance, as well as having adequate Temp Resistance (better than the "hi-temp" paints), in my experience. IMHO, most cases of smokebox paint scorching on our small models is usually caused by accidentally (novices?) allowing the Burner Flame to burn inside of the Smokebox, not within the Flue as it should be. ;-)
Steamy Cheers back to Ya! -- SRC Ken
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Hi Ken, Thank you for responding! Phase transition such as turning water into vapour are truly fascinating phenomena. Huge energy is required to actually turn water into steam. But all this energy does not increase the temperature beyond the boiling point as long as there is water in the boiler. This is why I set 150 degrees Celsius (302 F) as the maximum temperature on our steamers which are designed to operate up to the maximum of 60 psi. I was tempted to add smokebox+door+stack to the list of parts which become hotter, but these depend so much on the design of the loco and the combustion efficiency that it is difficult to set clear guidelines. Contrary to your approach, I believe that all my locomotives have insulated smokeboxes, on some I added double insulation and sealed this with silicone. Simply because I do not like the paint turning brownish. Some day when I will be able to take my locos out again I will get one of these thermometers and check the smokeboxes. This is a great way of checking individual performance of the combustion trajectory on each loco. and to improve insulation on them if required. I agree that incidents with smokebox fire happen and these can ruin not only the paint but simply melt the smokebox. But some locomotives are well known for becoming very hot in normal operating conditions. Generally speaking, cylinders are close to the smokebox and the steam delivery pipe may be superheated, plus it is exposed to the opening under the smokebox. This is great for preheating the cylinders and reducing priming, although I doubt that at any point of time cylinders get hotter than 150 degrees C. But without a proof through measurement on each particular loco in a variety of conditions there is no way of telling. Steaming greetings to you too! Zubi
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Too hot a smoke box means that you are not radiating heat into the water inside the boiler correctly, and is a pretty bad sign Zubbi. Most of the heat created by the burner should be absorbed through the water barrel before reaching the smoke box in an efficient boiler.
On another subject pertinent with this thread, I just wanted to say that I have found O rings in gland boxes, not to be as efficient as people might think. On two of my engines one recent and practically new my Accucraft T1 and one older engine gotten second hand, my Aster K4; I have seen blow by at the O ring gland boxes when starting a heavy train, which should not occure.
I have therfore just redone all the gland boxes on my K4 with the graphited teflon I mentioned above. I will report on how it stands up over time, but so far it is much better. Aside from that, the gland boxes on the K4 are very realistic but heck to service. If this is succesful I will do it to my T1 which has "oil mayonaise" on some front drivers when starting heavy trains.
By the way the tiny M1,1mm screws (IE impossible to replace) that hold the gland box on the K4 were sealed with thread sealers or loctite. One very difficult to get to screw's cheesehead almost got destroyed while trying to remove it to perform the above operation!
Expecting the problem coming from some form of loctite having been applied by the precedent owner, I aplied heat with my small camping gas torch and luckily it finally came off without any problems.
So much for thread blocking on our live steam locos! To be avoided wherever possible except for some parts that should not have to be dismantled, and even there... Be extremly careful with loctite! For a while I thought that my K4 was shot...
On another subject pertinent with this thread, I just wanted to say that I have found O rings in gland boxes, not to be as efficient as people might think. On two of my engines one recent and practically new my Accucraft T1 and one older engine gotten second hand, my Aster K4; I have seen blow by at the O ring gland boxes when starting a heavy train, which should not occure.
I have therfore just redone all the gland boxes on my K4 with the graphited teflon I mentioned above. I will report on how it stands up over time, but so far it is much better. Aside from that, the gland boxes on the K4 are very realistic but heck to service. If this is succesful I will do it to my T1 which has "oil mayonaise" on some front drivers when starting heavy trains.
By the way the tiny M1,1mm screws (IE impossible to replace) that hold the gland box on the K4 were sealed with thread sealers or loctite. One very difficult to get to screw's cheesehead almost got destroyed while trying to remove it to perform the above operation!
Expecting the problem coming from some form of loctite having been applied by the precedent owner, I aplied heat with my small camping gas torch and luckily it finally came off without any problems.
So much for thread blocking on our live steam locos! To be avoided wherever possible except for some parts that should not have to be dismantled, and even there... Be extremly careful with loctite! For a while I thought that my K4 was shot...
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Good reminder Simon to apply some heat to reluctant tiny screws on our models as they may have a thread locker on them as it is easy to twist the head off by applying "just a little bit more" pressure. I have ruined a few.
I do love your perfect description "oil mayonaise" of the residue left on the driving wheels of a loco when the piston gland leak's a lot.
Russell
I do love your perfect description "oil mayonaise" of the residue left on the driving wheels of a loco when the piston gland leak's a lot.
Russell
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Yes being a gourmet cook somewhat (You have a number of recipes that require mayonaise of sorts: AÏoli or bouilabaisse), I find it describes very well what it is and what it looks like. Mayonaise is made by beating an oil with non oil ingredients, just like steam oil and condensed steam. It leaves a white oily film on the front drivers. When You see that appear, it means that your piston or valve gland needs re packing. It tends to disapear once the loco reaches track speed, but is very visible when starting a heavy train or on a grade.
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I only use thick engine oil to soak paper gaskets. I did it on my Aster P8 as well. The idea of using silicone gunk just seems repulsive to me.
Worst case scenario, what if some gets pressed into the steamchest, when mounting it / cover, and then maybee eventually som small piece breaks off, drifting around in the steamchest, valve and canals?!
Besides, I thought silicone might be a problem, if disassembling in the future. Though a fellow club member sayes that in his experience, that is actually not a problem.
Another reason I did not use the bathroom silicone Aster supplied, was I just had my doubts, since bathroom applications just never reach anything near the temperatures that might occur on a steam engine, I thought. And there was no temperature rating to be found on the packaging.
But actually, our small locomotives just barely operate on saturated steam, at correspondingly low temperatures. Even at 5 bar, it's 151C. (72psi/304F) But we operate at lower pressures and temperatures.
The so called "superheater" actually rathermore operates as a "steam dryer" in our models, evaporating water droplets drawn into the steamline. There probably almost never is any actual superheating going on. The superheater is rathermore functions like a "flash boiler", acting as after boiler steam and water treatment.
For fittings, I use teflon tape. Very unproblematic to disassemble / adjust.
I've used loctite on tiny screws joining parts of the valve gear, after I once lost a specially manufactured screw (definately only possible to replace as a spare part from Regner) during a run. Incredibly though, I actually did find the tiny screw in the prototypical ballast of a ground level garden track! (Size something like 1,5mm x 4mm) I have lost so many much, much larger screws on the ground in my life, I couldn't believe my luck! Anyway, that's when I started using threadlock/Loctite like.
As for boiler casings, I'm inclined to say just ordinary enamel (havent tried silicone type) paint is just fine. Exept possibly if it's a smithies type, where the boiler casing sort of acts as a smoketube. I think Aster oven bakes that kind of boiler casing paint?
I've used ordinary enamel paint on brass cylinder covers (as I find brass is very unrealistic, however beatiful it looks), and that certainly has held up very well over time.
I've had to repaint a bit on my Aster P8, because it ended standing still over invisable alcohol flames. It was actually the paint starting to crincle/ turning black, that made me understand what was going on. (Another time the track sleepers started melting, wich alerted me...)
I figure all livesteamers can need touching up sometimes. Just like you also check seals and tighten bolts.
Smokebox and and door should be insulated, just in case you screw up with a gas burner.
I keep replacing the teflon tape (twisted flat or 1mm round) in my piston glands. I'm going to try traditional graphite hemp string next time.
O-rings in glands obviously require more disassembly, than any open ended piece of "string". But as for function, I have no experience. (Can't remember what's used on my Aster P8?! I've had no problems yet.)
Regner has also used twisted teflon tape as piston "rings", which also doesn't last very long. Grrr! I'm considering replacing them with new teflon pistons from Regner. Or try and turn the grove to take an O-ring. I believe Roundhouse (??) uses that.
My Maerklin / Regner small BR89, actually uses leather (or something), just turned flat, as a piston sealing ("ring")! I guess the function is just to keep / carry steam oil, providing enough seal. Anyway, seems to work for ever. Which makes me think a plain O-ring in a groove might actually work pretty well also!?
Worst case scenario, what if some gets pressed into the steamchest, when mounting it / cover, and then maybee eventually som small piece breaks off, drifting around in the steamchest, valve and canals?!
Besides, I thought silicone might be a problem, if disassembling in the future. Though a fellow club member sayes that in his experience, that is actually not a problem.
Another reason I did not use the bathroom silicone Aster supplied, was I just had my doubts, since bathroom applications just never reach anything near the temperatures that might occur on a steam engine, I thought. And there was no temperature rating to be found on the packaging.
But actually, our small locomotives just barely operate on saturated steam, at correspondingly low temperatures. Even at 5 bar, it's 151C. (72psi/304F) But we operate at lower pressures and temperatures.
The so called "superheater" actually rathermore operates as a "steam dryer" in our models, evaporating water droplets drawn into the steamline. There probably almost never is any actual superheating going on. The superheater is rathermore functions like a "flash boiler", acting as after boiler steam and water treatment.
For fittings, I use teflon tape. Very unproblematic to disassemble / adjust.
I've used loctite on tiny screws joining parts of the valve gear, after I once lost a specially manufactured screw (definately only possible to replace as a spare part from Regner) during a run. Incredibly though, I actually did find the tiny screw in the prototypical ballast of a ground level garden track! (Size something like 1,5mm x 4mm) I have lost so many much, much larger screws on the ground in my life, I couldn't believe my luck! Anyway, that's when I started using threadlock/Loctite like.
As for boiler casings, I'm inclined to say just ordinary enamel (havent tried silicone type) paint is just fine. Exept possibly if it's a smithies type, where the boiler casing sort of acts as a smoketube. I think Aster oven bakes that kind of boiler casing paint?
I've used ordinary enamel paint on brass cylinder covers (as I find brass is very unrealistic, however beatiful it looks), and that certainly has held up very well over time.
I've had to repaint a bit on my Aster P8, because it ended standing still over invisable alcohol flames. It was actually the paint starting to crincle/ turning black, that made me understand what was going on. (Another time the track sleepers started melting, wich alerted me...)
I figure all livesteamers can need touching up sometimes. Just like you also check seals and tighten bolts.
Smokebox and and door should be insulated, just in case you screw up with a gas burner.
I keep replacing the teflon tape (twisted flat or 1mm round) in my piston glands. I'm going to try traditional graphite hemp string next time.
O-rings in glands obviously require more disassembly, than any open ended piece of "string". But as for function, I have no experience. (Can't remember what's used on my Aster P8?! I've had no problems yet.)
Regner has also used twisted teflon tape as piston "rings", which also doesn't last very long. Grrr! I'm considering replacing them with new teflon pistons from Regner. Or try and turn the grove to take an O-ring. I believe Roundhouse (??) uses that.
My Maerklin / Regner small BR89, actually uses leather (or something), just turned flat, as a piston sealing ("ring")! I guess the function is just to keep / carry steam oil, providing enough seal. Anyway, seems to work for ever. Which makes me think a plain O-ring in a groove might actually work pretty well also!?
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i am using Loctite 589 high temp sealant [developed for auto engine use with sensors etc, guite thick and best rolled on using a toothpick or similar since sensors involve hot oils etc it is adequate for our little locos. Just a point of interest Loctite Inc was sold to a German group Henckel and the products seem to be made in PRC now .
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I find that the std Loctite glue has really gone down in quality, I use to keep them carefully for a year or two, now since Henckel purchased them they only last a month or two. Quite abit of ripoff there.
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Simon,
Thanks for this tip about Loctite..... the last Loctite Threadlocker I bought was about a year ago, and it does seem to be of lesser quality than my older tubes of Loctite. My older stuff had been around for years, but always kept at "room temperatures", and I never had noticed any problems with their "effectiveness" or quality. I would like to think that Henckel would like to maintain a quality product..... but now, I will test my fresher Loctite and likely will not buy any more of the stuff.
-- Happy New Year!! -- Ken
Thanks for this tip about Loctite..... the last Loctite Threadlocker I bought was about a year ago, and it does seem to be of lesser quality than my older tubes of Loctite. My older stuff had been around for years, but always kept at "room temperatures", and I never had noticed any problems with their "effectiveness" or quality. I would like to think that Henckel would like to maintain a quality product..... but now, I will test my fresher Loctite and likely will not buy any more of the stuff.
-- Happy New Year!! -- Ken
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Hello Ken : In that post I was speaking about the standard loctite fluid glue, not the thread locker. just so there is no misunderstanding. Best,
Simon
Simon
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Hi Simon: Thank you for the clarification..... I have never used the Loctite fluid glue, and know nothing about it, if there was misunderstanding it was on my part 🥴 😱 😀
Cheers! -- Ken
Cheers! -- Ken
Hi Simon,
I am new to the forum and still finding my way around. When you say loctite fluid glue do you mean the isocyanate / "super glue" compound or is it something else? Thanks for your time..........PD
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Hi pete : yes I mean the superglue (isocyanate). Here it is largely distributed by Locktite which is now part of Haenckel I beleive.
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