Due to the problem of getting denatured alcohol, is it feasible to own an alcohol burning locomotive or is it best to use either butane or coal?
Is an alcohol burning locomotive feasible in California?
yellow_cad
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Due to the problem of getting denatured alcohol, is it feasible to own an alcohol burning locomotive or is it best to use either butane or coal?
If you are new to live steam, then gas-firing is the easiest way to go. Alcohol is the trickiest, bearing in mind a recent VERY severe incident here in UK, and coal-firing is definitely an acquired skill that can be a very expensive one to come to grips with.
Best advice from THIS boy is to go along to a meet and see as much as you can about what goes in to all this great hobby. The greater proportion of live-steamers are helpful and friendly, and all to ready to give advice to a noob.
Just do NOT buy something and get into live-steam by yourself. Just like teaching yourself of shoot, or playing a musical instrument, it's all too easy to teach yourself bad and potentially dangerous habits that are hard to break thereafter.
Best advice from THIS boy is to go along to a meet and see as much as you can about what goes in to all this great hobby. The greater proportion of live-steamers are helpful and friendly, and all to ready to give advice to a noob.
Just do NOT buy something and get into live-steam by yourself. Just like teaching yourself of shoot, or playing a musical instrument, it's all too easy to teach yourself bad and potentially dangerous habits that are hard to break thereafter.
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I think that maybe you have answered your own question.
Look around locally and see what fuels are easily available and go down that track.
Cheers,
David Leech, Delta, Canada (where Methyl Hydrate is easily obtained!)
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I live in CA and most of my locomotives are alcohol powered. I use so-called 'smart fuel' from Amazon - it is pretty much pure ethanol and burns cleaner than denatured alcohol without the foul smell and fumes. At $10 per liter, it is expensive compared to what denatured alcohol used to cost. I ran my Allegheny yesterday - it ran for 45 minutes on just over 1/2 liter of fuel.
Personally, I much prefer alcohol as a fuel compared to gas.
As a noob myself, I only have a Ruby so far. In warmer climates I would never see the need to venture away from Butane as a fuel source. As I grow my collection, I would look into replacing the Wicks in an Alcohol burner with a ceramic burner to maintain a single fuel house hold. Being in Wisconsin, the only reason I would consider leaving an alcohol burner alone is for cold weather operations, but even then, My butane hasn't prevented me from operating yet. Also, many more experienced than me have found solutions to keep the butane warm. The coming Accucraft C-18 looks like it will have many of the operating characteristics of Alcohol but the perks of Butane in availability and flame visibility. But I've never run anything besides My Ruby, so my opinion isn't founded on much experience.
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Just depends on your taste in models, many of the traditional gauge one locomotives have been alcohol fired for decades. This is slowly changing as Accucraft, Bowande and others make models in that scale that are gas fired. Gas firing does become a bit problematic if you want to try to run in the artic cold during the winter time(it is really fun having a huge steam plume hanging in the cold air). Running at under 10'F is where good running alcohol fired model comes in handy. But it takes practice, learning how to set up wicks properly and proper fire extinguishing items on hand in case of issues. Just part of the fun of live steam.
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I understand the attraction of butane as fuel. No fiddling with wicks, no danger from spills, no worrying about whether the smokebox is fully sealed etc.
Alcohol fueled engines - like the real thing - need a draught (draft) to keep the fire going. The nice thing about this is that the engine becomes somewhat self regulating. More steam going through the smokebox pulls more air across the fire which causes it to burn more fiercely. The regulator is the primary control for how much steam goes though the smokebox but it is augmented by a steam blower. So as you open the regulator, you create more draught and the fire burns hotter.
In my experience, the key to getting great performance with an alcohol engine is load - the more the better up to the point where you start to see wheel slip. This short video shows an alcohol fueled Aster Allegheny pulling 24 slightly over scale coal wagons - it ran for 45 minutes without me touching the controls. One lap with no load to clear the cylinders, a couple of laps running a little too fast, then final adjustments and away she went with boiler pressure remaining rock solid at about 2.5 Bar (35 PSI). A little wheel slip from the rear engine occasionally as she pulled the wagons over 'heartbreak hill' at one end of my track.
For butane, the draught has little or no effect - you simply control the flow of gas to control the heat. This means constant fiddling to get the balance right - too much and the safety is lifting constantly, too little and you lose pressure.
Just my opinion and I know many will disagree.
How can I disagree with no alcohol fired Experience myself?
The draught not effecting Ceramic heat output is something I never considered. I understand that coal, wood and wicked alcohol would be effected, but just assumed Gas Ceramic would have the same.
Boy howdy do I want to gain some experience though, even just as a spectator.
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Alcohol (from my observation) performs brilliantly but requires that you pay very close attention to what you're doing, from the prep to monitoring what's happening as your loco is running, and be prepared to deal with spills. It has also become critically important (in light of the recent serious accident at a steam-up in the UK) that alcohol -- normally clear -- be colored to distinguish it from water. This is common practice in North America and has now become strongly recommended elsewhere, per the G1MRA.
To my mind, gas simply has a different set of quirks -- not better or worse than alcohol, but attention must be paid to a different set of criteria. The different gas mixtures (butane, isobutane, butane/propane) have specific vapor pressures and can be a colossal pain to light, depending on the ambient temperature, presence/absence of a water bath and other variables. A poker burner is just a mini-blowtorch in the fire tube, and it's all too easy to turn the wick up too far and scorch the smokebox.
Small scale live steam locos are unique -- even two locos from the same builder's batch can be different -- and there's a learning curve involved for each one.
And if you take nothing else away from this thread, remember that regardless of what you're burning, do not leave a live steam loco unattended.
To my mind, gas simply has a different set of quirks -- not better or worse than alcohol, but attention must be paid to a different set of criteria. The different gas mixtures (butane, isobutane, butane/propane) have specific vapor pressures and can be a colossal pain to light, depending on the ambient temperature, presence/absence of a water bath and other variables. A poker burner is just a mini-blowtorch in the fire tube, and it's all too easy to turn the wick up too far and scorch the smokebox.
Small scale live steam locos are unique -- even two locos from the same builder's batch can be different -- and there's a learning curve involved for each one.
And if you take nothing else away from this thread, remember that regardless of what you're burning, do not leave a live steam loco unattended.
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Well said Joel, well said! These are fire breathing dragons and left unattended will tend to go wild at times. I keep my Bioethanol fuel in one of the red containters sold specificly for alcohol fuel. This allows no confusion of what is alcohol and what is boiler water. The rest of the fuel is kept in its original container at my steam up prep area, and that bottle is well labled from the Mfg as to what it is. Many, tend to use the same style "squirt" bottles for fuel and water, then it become paramount to color the fuel with a drop or two of food dye. You can get the red alcohol fueling bottles on line, I got mine from Amazon and they come in a couple sizes.
Amazon.com : Trangia Fuel Bottle : Empty Camping Stove Fuel Bottles : Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com : Trangia Fuel Bottle : Empty Camping Stove Fuel Bottles : Sports & Outdoors
www.amazon.com
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I put blue food coloring in mr denatured alcohol. Even before doing that I sniffed whatever liquid I was using to make sure I had the right one. I also fill water and fuel with two clear syringes, one for each liquid.
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It must also be remembered that gas burners, at least of the poker type initially very common on most early gas models could litterally unbraze a boiler if the boiler went dry. This is enough of a reason for me to keep to meths. Which by the way, JVR told me once, has the same calorific value as good Welsh steam coal.
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Good point and another reason to use Alcohol/Meths. If the water runs out, you produce no steam. No steam means no draught and the fire pretty much goes out. In practice the fire pops and splutters as it tries to find oxygen, but it produces little heat.
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More like belches outside of the firebox and burns, causing paint scorching and sooting if not put out right away. A small Co2 fire extinguisher or a large wet towel fixes that issue quickly. If there is still water in the boiler, the draft fan can be stuck in the stack quickly which will get the fire back in the fire box, then the fire put out quickly by one means or another. But it is the traditional fuel of gauge one and many early 16mm narrow gauge models, could care less about cold weather and many times can be easier to find than butane gas. From online sources to the local hardware store(depending where one lives). I am still a big fan of Bioethanol for its clean burning, less eye burning due to not having all the additives they put in denatured alcohol to make it undrinkable. Heck, you can even fire one with Everclear or moonshine!
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Here is one of my vintage alcohol fired pot boilered gauge one locomotives running on Bioethanol fuel.
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I keep my alcohol in the container it came in, so there's no confusion here. Having said that, I was operating one of my alcohol fired engines last fall one time when my sense of smell had not yet recovered after having covid, and I noticed some liquid had spilled under my engine just as I was about to light it. It turned out to be water, but it was very disconcerting not to be able to identify it by smell.
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I would leave mine in the container, however I put my fuel and water into individual cups since it is hard to suck water with a syringe out of a jug or denatured alcohol with a syringe out of the can it comes in.
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The most dangerous part of using alcohol is filling the tank because this is when a spill is most likely.
I now use a soap dispenser pump I bought online and which - by luck - happens to screw directly onto the bottles in which the 'smart fuel' is supplied. I fitted a tube to the outlet side which is then fed into the tank. No more spills and no need to decant the fuel into another container.
https://www.amazon.com/Pumps-Lotion...61271008&sprefix=dispenser+,aps,139&sr=1-2-7d9bfb42-6e38-4445-b604-42cab39e191b
I now use a soap dispenser pump I bought online and which - by luck - happens to screw directly onto the bottles in which the 'smart fuel' is supplied. I fitted a tube to the outlet side which is then fed into the tank. No more spills and no need to decant the fuel into another container.
https://www.amazon.com/Pumps-Lotion...61271008&sprefix=dispenser+,aps,139&sr=1-2-7d9bfb42-6e38-4445-b604-42cab39e191b
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I use a hand-crank model airplane fuel pump, which is also handy for returning any unused fuel back into the container afterwards as well. I bought two of them, so that I have one for fuel and a separate one for water (both labeled as such to avoid cross-contamination).
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