Aster Chapelon Nord Pacific Revisited

Hi Joe
Regarding pictures that can't be seen. It looks like the screenshot below.
Regards David

David_DK said:

Hi Joe
Regarding pictures that can't be seen. It looks like the screenshot below.
Regards David

Click to expand...

David,

In the image you furnished, nothing is missing. Where those red rectangles indicate broken images, there are no images. The first image in the post is the tender side with screw sizes indicated.

There appear to be no words missing in the section you show, but somehow the formatting looks squeezed. I'll do a total image count on the previous page and you can check to see whether anything is missing.

~ Joe

Edit: Post #71, 10 images; Post # 74, 2 images; Post # 76, 7 images; Post # 80, 5 images.

You may be missing some emojis? <--- That's it. You are missing two emojis where the red rectangles are located. Here is another:

Joe,
Very nice work on the French chocolate.. I stand corrected on your detailing! I, of course, couldn't help but give you a little chocolate over all this fuss you are making....

I do appreciate the effort, the education and the good humor you have provided...If you ever come out to the midwest, we might let you run that piece of chocolate on our layouts....but, then again, we might not...)

Seriously Joe, great work and your Nord is fun to see!

Sam

Hi Joe and everybody: Glad to see this post continue as it is a real treat for me to see how you are putting all these details into your model. Well I have been quite busy since, as mentionned in another thread, I have managed to bring my De Caso mikado tank chassis up to a succesful air test, which brought me a good deal of joy, as I have absolutely no model engeneering training.

I also made a set of omnibus (local) coaches for my pike I have a good photo of the Chapelon in Nord days at Compiègne hauling a rake of those beautiful Prussian non corridor bogie coaches that Märklin so kindly produced for us, and I had already four six wheelers, so I bought some bogie ones at Sinsheim. Then looked at how I could paint them in SNCF green. I figured out a method for this and as I had made up an ex PLM metalised six wheeler (post war SNCF design) it makes up a very nice rake for locals and what we call "semi direct". As the NORD had been litterally destroyed during WWI it was entitled to a great deal of German reparation equipment after. (The morality of the Versailles Treaty, I must confess, is strictly not my cup of tea, may I add) but as a gauge one modeler, I find it very convenient. I then asked Chris Ludlow for some advice to prepare art work for the lettering, did it and got it printed on transfer film by a Parisian firm. here is a posed photo of the result (I didn't have the time to make it in steam but should soon)


Then I built the 12 bogies kits I had for my six NORD coaches, these were designed by two friends, one of which is a guy working for Dassault sytems and he is an ace at computer designing. They feature springing and the very caracteristic Athermos journal boxes -the same as on the tenders. These had fins which sloshed the oil around at the end of the journal box and then small canals brought it to where it was needed.


And here is a photo made just before winter, of the rake or the rake minus one coach the Postal RPO is a scratchbuilt car, the four Rapides are Neil Rose cars and my Express NORD coach is scratch built. The bogies are still unpainted they have been since.


One of the nice things about this ongoing forum is that I scratch built about twelve years ago an OCEM four wheel fourgon which is typically ETAT and EST(its visible right behind my Chapelon in the 1st photo) but was also used on the sud -est region after the war (so I could use it with my 1-4-0 C and my 2-D-2 9100 SNCF) but as I model the NORD and the nord region I could not find a photo of it in service on the Nord region, although that eventuality seemed likely.
The photo of the 2-3-1 G or K (ex PLM) that you showed at Gare du Nord in the last years of steam shows that very baggage car! So you helped me from over the pond Joe!
By the way Charles called the train on the other track OCEM's actually they are post war all welded design we call Forrestier from the name of the engineer that developped them also known as DEV they started coming out about 1948 and were built right up to the end of the fifties in diferent configuration. The first series even had 3 1/2 first class compartments, the half compartment was for young ladies traveling alone! Other info about that interesting photo, is the container baggage cars: It seems that the convention between the SNCF and the CIWLT after WW2 made the CIWLT container baggages redundant (I don't know why) so they were dropped from the roster however the SNCF used similiar cars (or were they just modernised version of the ex CIWLT cars) that had the center cabin in SNCF green. So theoretically no such baggage behind a 2-3-2 U1 ( I hope this won't break the heart of many fans running gauge one steam) these were used on the Paris Calais runs only were those big hudsons didn't run either because of their 22 tons axle loading (they did a few times but very rarely).

Thanks for info on coaches du-bousquetaire, can you tell me more about usage of the Marklin clerestory roofed bogie coaches on local trains, were they used on Est and Nord? Apart from repainting in SNCF green what markings were on these coaches as I would also like to do a local train maybe with a 140C as I like the look of the old coaches. Now back to you Joe and more mods on the Chapelon please when ready.

Welcome back aboard Simon. I am glad to be of service even if by accident!

Beautiful work on those coaches! The bogies look quite nice.

Where did I get a photo that you did not have?

Allow me to mention some things in this post that may help you and others in a search for photos and other information.

One thing you know already Simon is to form the queries en francais. I found out by accident that if I translated some of my search queries from English into French, I was taken to many more sites which would not be otherwise found searching in English only.

But here is something that you may not know Simon?

There are back issues of two french modeling magazines on line in PDF format and these magazines have lots of B&W and coloUr photographs in them.

Here I am thinking about:

Ferrovissime
Loco-Revue

The fact that they are available in PDF form means that for a non-french speaker such as I am, though I studied a little French, one can cut and paste sections of text into a translator and then tweak as necessary.

Have a look at these and I'll tell everyone how to get them and more:










Here are a couple of interesting photos that do not relate to the Nord Pacific:



A Google translation, slightly massaged:

"In a crash of thunder, the 241 P 35 crosses the station d'Orry-la-Ville-Coye track 2, bound for Paris-Nord. Received administratively by the SNCF on June 20, 1952, the "P 35" did not leave the Creusot factory until August 1952, to be entrusted to engineer F. Roy. Immediately after commissioning for commercial use, the locomotive runs 6969 km at the head of regular trains during the first month of its career! (PHOTO: J-H RENAUD / ROGER THEVENE COLLECTION)"

One more of interest . . .



A Google translation, tweaked:

"An extraordinary silhouette: "la Divine" 232 U 1, symbol of the Swan Song of steam traction. Painted in black and green exterior, the locomotive has received red lining while the tender is provided with yellow lining. The locomotive is ready for departure, with, in the background, an economy class passenger coach belonging to the service EX (exploitation), at the time, painted in gray."

How to find these?

Back issues of Ferrovissime and Loco-Revue are available from LR Presse. One can often obtain the actual beautiful color magazine when it is not too far in the past for from 3 to 5 Euros. The same issues plus many more issues going back many years are available to purchase and download in PDF form from fr.1001magazines.com.

It is possible to find the magazines sometimes for free as well in PDF form.

Here is a link to useful elevation drawing of 3.1192 from July-August 1972:

Plan of the Month - Locomotive 3.1192 Nord

Enjoy,

~ Joe

Edit: The Nord looks good at the head of such a fine train, Simon.

I knew it! You took the bait!

Simon, I knew that if I put up the photo of U1 accompanied by a tender with yellow lining that you would educate us on the reasons for the condition as seen in the photo.

Thank you once again for your contribution to this thread. I may take you up at some point on the transfers for the rolling stock. We shall see.

There are two issues of Loco-Revue I have which discuss the various subsystems on French locomotives. By subsystems I am referring to pneumatic systems and brakes, water feed, boiler design, firebox charging, generators and electric, etc. In one such article I learned about the two to three air storage reservoir tanks located on the locomotives.

Here are the two issues:

Loco-Revue HSLR 24 11/2011 - La locomotive à vapeur - Comment ça marche ? (1re partie)
Loco-Revue HSLR 25 03/2012 - La locomotive à vapeur - Comment ça marche ? (2e partie)

Steam Locomotives, How They Work, Parts 1 & 2.

I have not done any translations yet, but it is not hard to do cutting and pasting from a PDF file.


Meanwhile, I have not retired yet so it's back to work for me.

Cheers,

Joe

Actually its even unusual that you can see the lining on it. The Nord tradition of ***** and span engines stopped on the fallplate, as tenders were interchangeable and could be changed they left the maintenance for them to the Hoggers and inspectors at the depot, so most had very dirty tenders.
I know this may look tedious to some but I figured that being a NORD fan and having a good deal of info on it, I might as well help out people like Joe who are going out of their way to make a finer model.
By the way those red plugs on the back of the tender, were for train lighting as many of the older cars then still didn't have dynamos and storage batteries. There is even a close up photo made during WW2 of one of the express Nord coaches (of which I made one model) which was to remain coupled to another as there was only one dynamo and battery for both. Heck when I worked in Genoa for a show in 1989 I finnally found out why there were so many agents on the platforms, they were still running coaches with batteries but no generator, so they changed the batteries and put them on the little carts to bring them to a place where they were recharged. Imagine the work, batteries are heavy! And yes Hans Peters little plugs are much finer for sure!

I have five of those smaller electrical receptacles, whereas there were actually 7 in use. There are three on the front of the engine as the cinema also plugged into such a receptacle, but H-P and I didn't discuss this at the time we were communicating about these items. Three on the front of the loco and three on the rear of the tender, so where is the 7th connector box.

Can you see it?



I was lucky to find this photo as it is the only one I could find that showed so much detail of the interior of the cab, as well as the piping, reverser and door details with mounting plates.

Most French locomotives have a four-spoke reverser wheel with an open look. Here we see a solid wheel with a locking mechanism. I do have one or two other photos that demonstrate that the 4-spoked wheel is solid (one cannot look through the spokes.)

It seems that the Nord occasionally moved the loco at night sans tender.

I am nowhere near ready to go back to the tender, but at some point not that far off, I will rework the front buffer beam. I have a question for you Simon.


Here we see a sad sight:



Notice that one can see the original electrical connector boxes as well as what appear to be conventional lamp irons.

3.1192 does not use lamp irons as we see above. Instead, there are loops mounted on the buffer beam on the locomotive and on the rear body of the tender . . . and the lamps themselves have spikes which slide into the loops:



H-P used the spike and loop method and this is what I have modeled, though I haven't finished my work yet.

This is rather trivial, but is what we see at Mulhouse likely to be what the Nord used when they used lamps that were converted from oil to electric?

I assume it was the SNCF that installed conventional lamp irons?

~ Joe

Thanks again, Simon,

So it seems that it is your belief that the black metal u-channel loops for mounting the lamps (as you see in the photo of the tender) that we see today on 3.1192 in Mulhouse were not used in service?

It's hard to know from photographs we have available what is behind the lamps when we see them mounted.

I do have side-view photos from SNCF times where these is no doubt that conventional lamp-irons were in use as we see in the sad photo of 231E41 above.

To be continued . . .

~ Joe

Simon,
I have sent a PM to you re transfers for Prussian coaches. Joe amazing research between everyone and the images are great you make my Chapelon start to appear 'bare' by comparison, I must get on with tender mods keep up the posts on progress.
Russell

Hi fellows I thought that an SNCF film made right after the war in 1946 will give you a pretty good views of the Chapelon in the early SNCF days, they are seen with SNCF markings on the pilot beam yet still with their NORD macarons on the center of the smokebox door. The pre war documentary is very interesting and shows how well it had rebuilt since the first WW.
Aside from that this is a fascinating documentary on how the war literally destroyed the NORD for a second time, notably because of its strategic importance in preventing German reinforcements to reach Normandy and push D Day allied troops back in the channel. Allied bombings ands air attacks did most but also the French résistance of the railway men, many risked their lives.
So for those interested here is the link:

Hi there I hope people enjoyed this fascinating documentary and indeed there is a lot to see in them including the fact that the many BR44 being built by French firms requisitioned by the occupant, were never completed during the occupation, there seems that they always were missing such and such a supply or piece of hardware to finnish them... Well as soon as these firms were liberated, the parts reappeared and the engines were finnished off very quickly to haul coal as 1-5-0 X, before the liberation mikados arrived!

Yes the reverser wheel was solid (and slightly spoked still) and there was a locking mechanism or two one to prevent creeping, the other to link up the HP and the LP together if needed, but it could be unlocked. these reversers were like clockwork.
Of course this is a propaganda film with the narator sometimes over emotional, but nevertheless the efforts of the crews in a situation much like Syria today, but with snow, was heroic indeed. Something like what Moffat road crews did going over the hill before the tunnel was done.

...now if someone would only produce a Du Bousquet/De Glehn compound I could die happy......

Graham.

Thanks again, Simon. I don't know enough French to be able to understand what the narrator is saying - I can read a bit better - but certainly the tone is evident in the film and quite dramatic as the film comes to a close. I also saw a shot of those Prussian coaches in there somewhere.

Well . . .

Before I move on to some photos of the work I am doing on the locomotive, I think it's time I "come clean" about a disaster I experienced. It is a story of failure and redemption.

I am going to digress quite a lot in this one post, so if the reader doesn't like digression, you may skip to the next post.

I am relating the story not because I like to humiliate myself in public, but rather, because there is a lesson or two for others and perhaps someone will be able to avoid going down the dark path I took.

There are a couple of reasons why I hadn't made much progress on this project for over a year:

• one part disaster
• one part a delay in getting the right Nord brown paint.
• one part interesting distraction

I've already spoken about the trial and error process of getting the right paint. I am sure I can get as much of it as anyone would need in future.

The disaster . . .

A year and a half ago, I thought I was nearly finished detailing the tender as I have already explained. I eventually was persuaded that I'd have to repaint and reline, but before I even got that far, I decided to make a jig to hold the tender body on my mini-mill table so as to mill down the cut-away on the left side as you have seen completed in earlier posts - but with a replacement body! More about that in a bit.

I was about 95% finished with the milling operation when before my eyes, the end-mill cutter hogged and ripped through the side of the tender.

For a moment or two I was in a state of shock as one would expect if one cut off the tip of one's finger. I immediately realized I had exercised poor judgment and that I could have easily used Swiss files to accomplish the task safely on a painted model that I did not have to repaint (at that point.) It would have taken more time, but the result would have been assured.

I have no photos of the damage, but I do have photos of the repair.

You may recall that I purchased the Nord from Aster UK and naturally I turned to Andrew in my time of need. Was it possible that somewhere in the storeroom there would be found a new old stock Nord tender body?

While Andrew checked with Aster for me, I busied myself with a laborious repair.

As I was still trying to avoid a compete stripping of the tender body, I used a combination of brass plate and JB Weld.

JB Weld works like magic. It takes finishing almost as well as metal.

Here are a few shots of the work in progress:



Above it is clear that the brass and epoxy were "doing the job." What about the outside?



and . . .



It was coming along reasonably well, I thought . . .

Meanwhile, Andrew had gotten back to me that Aster did not have a Nord tender shell left in inventory.

But now for another painful lesson . . .

I had not worked out how to use an airbrush like a professional and I ought to have practiced more before attempting the paintwork.

Since my first attempt at a complete painting of the one side, I have practiced more and I have acquired a small paint booth. My first attempt was done outside on a warm day, but with a bit too much breeze:



The above is the last photo I will show on the subject of the tender body shell repair. I don't know about you, but I have had enough!

Does anyone have any idea how Aster made these lovely rivets so many years ago?

I can tell you how.

Looking at the underside, one can see that the rivets were not embossed from underneath. As it turns out, they are stamped from the front and raised in relief. Seemed workable. I'd already acquired a stock of replacement brass rivets of the right size to insert where needed.

I thought it would be safe to take a solvent to the side of the tender, bring it back to bare metal and then I could "paint it like a professional!"

So I used acetone and I began to dissolve the paint nicely and I was at first quite pleased with the result. But then . . .

What went wrong this time?

As it turns out, the rivets were a composite of stamping plus epoxy coating to increase the size.

By the time that I realized that I was not only wiping off the paint, but also wiping off 2/3 the original rivets, it was too late.

I was sinking into quicksand without a rope in sight.

I ended up drilling nearly the entire side of the tender and inserting new rivets. It was coming along, but it would never be a perfect solution.

Months had gone by and as it turns out, during the Aster move, Fujii-san found a remaining Nord tender body shell and made it available to me through Andrew.

What a great sense of relief that was!

So the earlier photos you've seen are of the reassembled tender with the replacement body. I now have a "practice body," which will come in handy.

As far as the interesting distraction goes, I'll add a short tale . . .

As has been the case with the "Nord Project," I had succumbed to what I refer to as "May As Well Syndrome."

May as well syndrome is something we all suffer from, from time to time, or so I imagine.

Spring had sprung and I noticed that my Austin-Healey 3000 BJ8 had a flat tire. In examining the tire (or tyre, if you prefer,) I realized that all my tires were about 20 years old? It's dangerous to be riding around on such old rubber so I ordered new from Longstone Classic Tyres in the UK. I had already learned with wire wheels, I may as well get my old wheels and new tires to an expert for mounting and truing up. Off to Alan Hendrix they went and shortly thereafter he gave me the news that the splines were worn on 3 of 4 wheels. May as well replace the wire wheels. I knew then that I had to replace the splined hubs as well. Can't do one without the other.

While I was waiting for the return, I may as well redo the brake disks and calipers up front and the drums and shoes in the rear. Why not change out the steel brake lines and hoses as well? Alan asked me to send him the drums as we may as well balance the drums. While the car was up on jack stands, may as well replace the rear axle bearings and seals. May as well check the universal joints only to discover some play in the rear joint. May as well replace both u-joints then.

I guess the picture is coming clear.

The weather was beautiful and the car was up on jacks.

Time to bead-blast some of the old steel underneath, prime and paint. And it was then that I decided to reupholster the entire car, front, rear, side panels, etc. None of us is getting any younger. That was months worth of fair-weather and garage work right there.

One photo only and its back to work on the locomotive:



OK,, time to get back to the subject at hand . . .