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Hiawatha F7

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#61 ·
That is coming along very nicely, Bill. Those classics make such wonderful models.

I have a friend here in Prescott that is quite active in the Historical Society and has done a number of early O gauge MKE restorations which we've helped with.

Most of his O gauge layout is MKE stuff.
 
#62 ·
A point worthy of note is that a 4-6-4 on the Milwaukee Road wasn't a Hudson. The Milwaukee intended to have the first 4-6-4s in the United States, but a little touch of bankruptcy in 1926 stalled the project. NYC got its prototype 4-6-4, 5200, in 1927. The president of the NYC chose to name the Hudson, and the Canadian roads were happy to name theirs after Hudson's Bay. On the Milwaukee Road a 4-6-4 was a Baltic, named after the European 4-6-4s.
 
Discussion starter · #63 ·
Thanks Reg
I guess it is just a point of note
Here is where I got the notion it was a Hudson'

Under the Whyte notation for the classification of steam locomotives, 4-6-4 represents the wheel arrangement of four leading wheels, six powered and coupled driving wheels and four trailing wheels. In France where the type was first used, it is known as the Baltic while it became known as the Hudson in most of North America.

The Milwaukee Road's class F7 comprised six (#100–#105) high-speed, streamlined 4-6-4 "Baltic" or "Hudson" type steam locomotives built by Alco in 1937–38
 
#64 ·
This strikes me as a bid odd . . .

If you go to the French language site for the SNCF 232-U1, clearly it is referred to as a "Hudson."

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/232_U_1

If you scroll over the "Hudson" you are sent to another site where the difference between a Hudson and a Baltic is explained in French.

"Baltic est un type de locomotive à vapeur dont les essieux ont la configuration suivante (de l'avant vers l'arrière) :

  • un bogie porteur à 2 essieux
  • 3 essieux moteurs
  • un bogie porteur à 2 essieux.
Hudson est un type de locomotive à vapeur dont les essieux ont la configuration suivante (de l'avant vers l'arrière) :

The French seem pretty convinced that SNCF 232 U.1 is a "Hudson" because the trailing axles are on an articulated "Bissel" rather than a bogie.

"A bissel is a carrier axle in addition to the drive axles to distribute the mass of a locomotive on the rails, and installed in the form of an articulated train able to orient relative to the frame of the machine to facilitate 'inscription in the curves." < - - Google translation, nearly adequate. ;)

There may be more to the distinction between a Hudson and a Baltic other than whether the loco was born in the USA or in Europe?

At Cite du Train in Mulhouse, the French refer to 232 U.1 (complete with bissel) as a "Hudson."

Carry on. :)

~ Joe
 
#65 ·
Many wheel arrangements of a given locomotive had several "labels" such as 4-8-4 were known as Northern Pacific, Niagara, Greenbriers, etc.

In keeping with the thread, the F7 4-6-4 on paper in 1925 were noted as the "Milwaukee type."

The company efforts for speedlined equipment was denote with the term of speedliners. Speedliners denotation was a reality in regards to fast passenger service and records set.

In 1940 the Morning Hiawatha had a schedule passenger route covering 78.3 miles in 58 minutes average speed from start to stop was 81 mph topping 100 mph in sections of the route.
 
Discussion starter · #66 ·
I used Poplar wood for the roofs. It is a stable wood that takes paint well.
I buy it from the Hardwood supplier in the area. It comes oversize (13/16") which allows for trimming to 3/4"
First I cut the pieces to length. Then on the jointer, I get a straight edge and run one side through to remove any warpage which may be there. I then rip them to the width needed on the table saw and finally run them through the thickness planner to get them all at exactly 3/4"

From the Hiawatha book, I have a roof profile which I print out to scale. A couple of sample passes on the router gives me the correct height to set the 1/2" round-over bit in the router and I run them all through
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I measure the angles of the top curvature and find that one pass at nine degrees and one at five will do the trick.
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The nine degree cut is first
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And then the five degree one.
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A palm sander cleans up the transition points. I start with 80 grit and work down to 220
I then prime the new roof and prime part of the beaver tail to get an idea of how it will liik when painted.
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Dennis cut out the diaphragm plate on the laser and 5/8" ribbon is used for the diaphragm.
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Discussion starter · #67 ·
Dennis cut the expansion links on the CNC mill. This is a design for the Walschaerts that I have found to be easy to make and because of the double ball bearing design, it has no slack and should last forever.
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The support bracket is made to match the prototype.
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Back to the cars. The roofs are made from 3/4" poplar wood and are held in place with two 4-40 screws. As the screw hole has to be perfectly aligned, I mark it and drill it from the bottom. I cut the tip off a pencil and then drilled a 1/16" hole in the cut side. Now I have a right angle marker for the task.
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We want the roofs to me smooth so I will use this socket head screw and countersink it. To get the proper countersink, I made this D bit which bottoms out at the right depth.
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Here is the screw in place. It will be painted the same color as the top
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The undercarriage units are cut to shape. the door outlines are done on the mill with a countersink tool and the vents are laser cut. They are now primed and ready for paint.
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The interiors are now finished. From the top down are:
Express Tap (cocktail lounge)
Parlor with men's and women's lounges and drawing room
Beaver Tail Observation
Diner
Coach with men's and women's lounges (there are four of these)

The white strip on the coach is an LED light bar which will reflect light off the roof

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I still have some door frames to add
 
Discussion starter · #71 ·
Thanks Winn but most of the beauty work id done by my friend Dennis Mead in his CNC mill
Prior to him getting it up and running, I spent many an hour on the rotary table and fileing
 
#72 ·
Sorry boys to back pedal like this, but somehow I had missed a good deal of this thread... So please don't mind my catching up with a few points that relate to older posts, by Bill and others:
First - I was very happy that you showed us how you work out the quarter round on the router Bill, with the feather boards both on the side and over the top, thanks a lot as this is certainly the best way to make them.
Second - A question: Is it to prevent heat transfer to the frames that you set the cylinders off from the frames with spacers? so the cylinders don't loose too much heat.
Three - Also I was amazed to learn thanks to you, and more knowledgeable Milwaukee fans, that the Milwaukee (whose city had a large population of German emigrants) actually experimented with its own variant of the Goerlitz truck design standard on DRG.

Four - about the French Baltic and Hudson: It is true that Gaston Du-Bousquet (now you guys will know the reason behind my pseudo) designed what was the first high speed mainline 4-6-4 which he called Baltic, mainly because it was to haul the Nord Express which ran from Paris to St Petersburg then in 1911 and was often overloaded. Although it seems that the Prussian T-18 tank loco and perhaps some British tank loco may have been the first with that wheel arangement. This exceptional loco was way ahead of its time and extremly powerful, but its designer died before they were introduced and they were never completly de bugged, alas and as current needs did not need that power later Nord designers (Asselin) opted for a lighter pacific which was actually an extended 4-6-0 with a very long and narrow firebox.

When De Caso designed his 4-6-4 some 27 or so years after, he had been mesmerised by a footplate ride on the German 05 class. He also designed his with a very original bissel truck which had no pivot, thus clearing entirely the underframe for the ash pan. As this loco had a wide firebox in opposition to the NORD tradition of long and narrow ones, I guess he felt he could shorten the rear end so that they could fit on the contemporary turntables and transfer tables. He definitly specified Hudson as he didn't want people to associate them with the 2 Du-Bousquet Baltics which had never been fully de bugged and were retired by then.

Also of interest and much more pertinent to this thread is the fact that André Chapelon who traveled to the USA in 1938 to study and approve many american practices (which he later incorporated into his futur standard designs, alas, never materialised). Had a footplate trip on one of the Milwaukee Baltics and felt that it was the most advanced design he saw in the USA at the time.
I always wondered if he didn't have some influence with the designers in Altoona and Cheyenne about draughting arangements notably on the FEFs, T1s and Chalengers and Big boys. The then adopted practice in America was with tight exhaust so locos would draught well and never needed ear mufs, afterwards there does seem to be an evolution in US designs. Unfortunatly we may never know.
Anyways thanks Bill for these wonderfull teutorials that indeed make this forum so fabulous.
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
Simon
Thanks for the historical info
Yes, the stainless bolts and spacers are to minimize heat transfer to the frame. The design also makes for easier and cleaner steam piping.
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
While I was waiting for the paint to come in, I started on the boiler
I start by cutting out the firebox sides from a 2-1/2" copper pipe and after annealing them, they are bent out and straight down. I then cut the flue tubes to length and make the throat sheet. As you can see it has raised sides for positioning and is raised in the middle to support the dry pipe.
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After silver soldering the tubes to the throat sheet, I check the back to make sure the solder has penetrated through and around each tube.
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The throat sheet and tubes are then soldered in to the main tube and the front tube sheet and backhead are made to fit the main tube.
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Here you can see the dog-leg fitting I use for the sight glass. the tube on the left goes inside just above the crown sheet and on the right in the lower portion which allows for the lower sight glass fittings to be below the crown sheet.
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Back to the cars, several hundred window frames are painted. they will be the last thing to go in.
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The paint has arrived and the base coat of Milwaukee Orange goes on.
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Here I am on the middle of painting the Maroon stripes. In the front are some just painted. To the left are some masked off and ready for paint and behind that is where I am doing the masking. it takes a while to mask because of the ribs and the transition to the doors. I am using 1/2" and 1/4" tape.
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And finally they are all painted.
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The striker plates are painted Maroon

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The beaver tail has these itty-bitty marker lights with bullet shaped lenses. Henner drew up a 3D CAD of the mounting bracket and we had it printed by Shapeways.I turned the lenses from acrylic rod in the lathe. the bulbs are 1.5 v grain of wheat .
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#76 ·
Bill
Glad the paint has arrived and allowed you to make progress: very attractive.
Would be informative to those who do not venture into boiler making to highlight your process in determining and building a boiler. For example how you layout the solder to make sure the solder has penetrated through.
Well done with the flues and soldering.
 
Discussion starter · #77 · (Edited)
Thanks Charles
I try not to repeat every step, so the ones that I have shown on other builds usually get left out. Perhaps, I could combine several boiler builds into a new thread which would be more helpful especially for newer members. I could then refer to that thread on future boiler builds.

I wonder if there would be much interest in something like that

Charles,
One other thing. When I first got into the hobby and knew nothing at all, I read every thread in Dwight's "informative Threads" sticky, especially yours and Dave Hottmann's.
You and Ryan probably repair more engines than anyone else and have shared your knowledge freely,
I know it is harder to post photos etc on this site now, than in the past, but the little tricks you share on your web site like where to find the hidden screws when taking an engine apart are invaluable.
The Flicker photos are great but sometimes an explanation is needed also
Thanks for sharing these here in the past and please keep more coming.
 
#78 ·
I doubt that I will ever build a boiler from scratch but the tips you post are a great resource. A tutorial would be a great help when doing repairs or mods. Those cars are fantastic! Did you have a special rattle can paint made?
 
Discussion starter · #79 ·
No Winn
That is actually Scalecoat. It is the first time I have used it. they were the only ones who had the actually Milwaukee Road orange so we got all of the colors from them so that everything would be compatible. So far, everything is working well. Not much instructions on the can. I had to call them to make sure how long to wait before masking and repainting (24 hours). I did a test panel with the two colors and then decaled it and clear coated it with Rustoleum 2X clear gloss and no problems with lifting or crinkling like I have seen with the rattle can paint I get here in Calif.
 
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