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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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 Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 20:50:35
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I purchased a Ruby/Forney kit bash from Lloyd Fogelquist (aka, salty chief) along with 4 cars just in time for Christmas. This engine is well broken in and runs fine.
I’m planning to do some updating and make some minor fixes to the locomotive.
I’ve added some brass trim to the domes.
I removed the black paint from the top half of the smokestack to expose the brass.
I had to replace the front pilot (cowcatcher) which was a fatality of shipping.
I’m going to reverse the steam admission, per Dave Hottmann’s instructions here on MLS.
The most major change will be in the coal bunker. I intend to change it to a combination wood bunker and water tank, under which will continue to be the R/C battery, receiver and servos.
In the running I’ve done so far, the servos are subject to some gliching. I may have to fix that.
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Edited by - on 01 Jan 2007 23:54:44
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 05:55:11
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Hi Howard,
An easy fix for glitching servos is to flick your transmitter off after a command and leave the "Sticks" where they were till it's time for another command. At that point flip the transmitter on, adjust the sticks, and flip it off again.
The only RC-ed loco that I own is a Frank S. and it is equipped with a Futaba four channel set up that has a "normally-off" momentary switch affixed to one of the stick's end (I forget which one as I have not run it in years). The momentary switch is series wired to the transmitter's battery, and in operation is only triggered just prior to sending a command to the loco. At the end of the command I release the switch, which then turns off the power to the transmitter.
My good steaming buddy Leslie Bedding has run all his RC-ed Roundhouse locomotives using the off-on-off approach for many years since it ended his glitching problems without surgery or new hardware.
This is a technique that one would never do with RC airplanes (loose the carrier wave), but it works just fine with our little steamers bacause they operate so close to the ground where stray signals are not usually found.
Most of our glitching problems are caused by the command/carrier signal bouncing back from the metal rails that we run on (ghost signal). Many years ago I ran some experiments with metal versus plastic railed loops and found out that when running on the plastic variety that glitching never was a problem. When I switched the same setup over to LGB brass rail the glitching returned.
I know that the "rusty-bolt" school of though may have a problem with this idea, but one has to remember that kind of thinking comes out of the model airplane community where the vibration of 15,000 to 30,000 RPM from two cycle engines does cause sparks between steel parts that then produce RF emanations that result in glitches at altitude because the carrier wave's effect falls off rapidly (exponentially?) the further the receiver is from the transmitter.
Our little steamers don't vibrate at high frequencies, all the working parts are liberally insulated from each other by a slathering of various oils, and aluminum, brass, and nickel-silver rail are non-ferrous and non-sparking in contact with cast iron, brass, steel, and stainless wheels or tires. Larry Bangham has some steel rail on his outdoor layout, and I have run on that with no problem. The late Bob Paulie had an all steel rail outdoor layout that I ran the Frank S. on with no signal glitching either. Simply put: at ground level no signal equals no glitching (unless you live under a high voltage transmission line or next to a radio or television station).
Howard, I encourage you to try this no-cost-change idea out on your elevated track and then let us all know how it worked for you. For my part I will dig out the case with the Frank S. and its transmitter, and then post a photo or two of the interupter switch setup.
Best regards,
KO-5 |
Edited by - on 02 Jan 2007 06:12:32 |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 06:13:58
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| Kevin, good trick for normal FM radios, I've used it too. Big metal barn doors will also reflect FM signals and cause ghosting, as will a smooth water surface, both situations I have experienced with trains and planes. The Spektrum takes a little time to lock onto (bind) the receiver, a delay that could be troublesome if you needed to shut the throttle quickly. Of course, the whole idea of Spektrum is to avoid glitches in the first place. So far, that has proved the case with mine. But I like your simple, cheap, solution for existing radios. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 17:39:47
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Thanks Kevin....that really helps a lot. Invariably, the glitch would occur near the low point in my track where it's already running the fastest, increasing the throttle and dumping the train off the track.
BTW, Lloyds little engine really runs well. I am very pleased with it and having lots of fun. Thanks for posting that message giving me the eBay lead. I'm discovering little-by-little what he might have done to the Ruby's operating characteristics, like altering the steam safety valve to about 40 lbs. It runs fine at about 15 lbs. but I haven't tried to pull any of the cars yet.
Happy New Year.
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 18:53:28
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Hi Howard and Brooks,
The first photo is of the stock Airtronics (I think that I said Futaba last time) FM transmitter circa 1997 or so. It shows the overall modification to the right side gimbal and the short antenna that I fitted to the transmitter.
The second photo shows the normally open, momentary, interrupter switch mounted on the top of the right hand "stick". The wires run through the disconnect and on into the interior of the transmitter case to the battery connection.
Please notice the brass plate, with the three notches, that the right hand stick rides on and in. I removed the springs that center the stick in the up and down mode, but left the springs that center the stick from side to side. The force of the side to side springs locates the stick in any of the three notches. This transmitter is only set up for my Frank S., and so the notches represent ahead (up), neutral (middle notch), and astern (lower notch). There is no point in having any kind of finer "notching up" control since the Frank S. uses a piston valve reverser block and the valve motion is mostly for show. The direction servo in the loco is trimmed out for these notch positions, and it never "sees" a stall at either end.
In operation I "key" the interrupter switch as I feed in a throttle or direction command, and then immediately release finger pressure from the switch. So far this approach has been bullet proof.
Howard, Lloyd is a retired Navy Chief Petty Officer (E-7) in the Machinery Repairman rating (a fellow snipe), and so he knows his way around mechanical things. I predict that you will be very happy with your purchase and the craftsmanship that Salty lavished upon the loco and the rolling stock.
Best regards,
KO-5 |
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Administrator
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 20:03:11
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If you wish to spend the money (around $200.00), your best bet is to dump the FM radio altogether and replace it with the Spektrum DX6. Totally glitch-free and automatically binds with the receiver on a clear channel, plus you only need to buy it once and can use to to control your whole live steam roster both now and in the future.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1535 |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 07:36:46
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Good morning Dwight,
You are right about purchasing a modern Spekturm system if one would want to RC a locomotive today. My point was that back in 1997, when I modified the Airtronics unit, there was no Spekrums to be had, and the only alternative to FM was PCM which, at the time, cost something near the US$500 dollar price point.
I only mentioned the off-on-off trick to Howard because he has Salty's RC set up already installed, and this approach is a quick-and-dirty fix for his immediate problem. His reply to me indicates that it worked for him, but I would not be surprised to learn that he heeded your advice down the line, and that he added the Spektrum equipment to his second Ruby. That's what I would do now rather than what I did do back in 1997.
The Frank S. that had this RC installation in it has had it removed for eight or so years. I only did it to see if I could come up with a better mouse trap for the times.
All my small scale live steamers are manually operated. Even the factory RC-ed Roundhouse locomotives on my roster have had their RC controls removed and been converted to manual operation.
I figure that for all the hard earned treasure that I've spent on my locos, that I'm entitled to run them hands on, up close and personal, burned fingers and all, to realize their full value to me.
If one needs RC control because of personal mobility problems, lack of ready access to the rails, or civil engineering shortfalls (grades), then I say "go for it", but if one runs on a dead level track, and can reach any point on the layout easily, and is not physically impared, then I recommend trying the hands on approach.
When I run on a challenging layout, such as Jack's in San Mateo, I have used a geared, manually operated, Cricket and Catatonk Shay to navigate his hills and dales without a problem. It's kinda like I would not bring a knife to a gun fight either.
Best regards,
KO-5 |
Edited by - on 03 Jan 2007 07:38:27 |
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Administrator
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 12:12:27
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Howdy Kevin,
I didn't make it very clear in my original post, but I was just saying to Howard (who's apparently just getting started in R/C) that he can save himself some grief by starting out with a good unit. I too have a PCM system that I purchased just prior to the Spektrum coming out, and having just spent the money for it, I'm a little reluctant to spend more on a Spektrum since the PCM is working out fine for me at this time. Eventually I'll replace the PCM (probably sooner rather than later).
Anyway, I wasn't referring to your good advise, which is certainly an immediate work-around and far cheaper than the approach I posted. Rather, I was just trying to provide an alternative which, while much more expensive, would permanently solve the problem now and forever. 
I run both hands on and R/C - manually with the geared stuff and R/C with the rod locos, and I enjoy both and generally agree with what you say. I do find that the more I use R/C, the better I like it, especially if one has sidings and spurs available to do some mainline switching, which I think is a real hoot! I also like the ability to compensate for grades (even if only small ones), though as you say, this is far less of a factor with the geared stuff.
BTW, I like your notch plate in the reversing gimbal. Great idea! |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 02:06:20
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Thanks guys for the R/C help. I'll keep the Spektrum RX6 upgrade in mind. For now, I'll be doing Kevin's workaround. For what it's worth, I had already acquired the R/C equipment for my other Ruby....it's about the same setup as what I got from Lloyd.
Here's an update on the change to the Bunker:
I’ve built a brass insert to slip down just inside the present bunker's side walls. This insert will be the new top of the bunker. The new bunker top will have an .005” thick brass cladding that will have the rivets embossed around the edge to represent the water tanks.
As you can see in the drawing at the left…on the top on each side there will be 2 water fill hatches, a wood bunker in the center surrounded with brass posts and rails and finally an air accumulator toward the rear of the wood bunker.
Along the way I also had time to add a hinge to the cab's roof.
And as you can see in the last picture all of the R/C equipment is in the bunker. The new brass top is the same thickness as the old coal load, so I won't have to alter any of the main R/C gear. I will have to reroute the antenna....my current thought is to route it into the wood load I have yet to design.
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 17:23:54
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I built the post and railings for the wood bunker out of 1/8” x 1/16” brass channel for the posts and 1/8” x 1/32” brass flat bar for the railings, all from “Special Shapes Co.”
I took my full size CAD drawing for the wood bunker and altered it to become the pattern for soldering the posts and rails together. I decided to do one side at a time, then to bend the rails 90 degrees for soldering the next side and so on. This way the rails could be contiguous.
Using my ceramic fiber soldering pad as a base, I used escutcheon pins (couldn’t find my t-pins) to anchor the rails and post together for soldering over the pattern as a guide. After using some liquid flux at each joint, I used the resistance solder setup I built to join all of the post & rail intersections:
The outboard-side:
I priced one of the small handheld sheet metal benders, but decided not to pay $40 for one. I found a wide-mouth welding pliers that would do the trick for $6 at  Harbor Freight. Using these pliers proved to be a lot easier than using my large sheet metal brake out in my workshop. After doing some fit checking I marked the point for the 1st bend and proceeded to bend the 3 rails all at once. This allowed for uniformity in the railings. Note that I used a c-clamp on the pliers to add some more squeeze:
I then proceeded to repeat the anchoring process and soldering on the second side:
Note the attached ground line from my Resistance Solder Setup on the right side.
After cutting the rails to length on the final side, I did a fit check using the actual brass bunker structure, which I made earlier:
The soldering of the rails is done and time to re-fit-check prior to attaching it all to the bunker top:
All soldered and now inserted in the existing bunker:
Next I’ll be adding supports to the inside of the existing bunker on which the new bunker top will rest. Maybe I’ll even make the new bunker top hinged to swing towards the back?
And before I do the rivet embossing I have to order the water tank hatches to get the actual dimensions.
I’m also looking for ideas on creating the wood load to go in the wood bunker….I’m thinking about cut logs split longitudinally into 4 pieces so that I get some bark and some raw wood showing.
Any ideas will be appreciated!!.
That’s all for now.
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 19:07:36
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| Looks real nice Howard. I generally use a small bench vice to do bends like that, probably because I don't have a pair of pliers like that. Might I suggest Manzanita for the wood load. The smooth bark looks scale. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 21:16:31
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| Howard, Really nice looking job on the Tender. Russian olive might work for thr wood load. I am really going to have to build a resistance welder for my Bogie project. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 19:21:22
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Thanks Bob and Winn for the wood load suggestions. I used some pine firewood I had on hand here and tried to split a piece so as to simulate split logs. It looks pretty good, but I'll try some of your suggested woods when I can find a source.
Anyway, let me know what you think??
Bob, as for using a bench vise for making the rails bends...the first bend of my contiguous railings would work with the vise, but because of the 2 inch width of the wood bunker, the second bend would be problematical. Anyhow, it was a good excuse to buy the pliers .
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Foreman
1st Class Member
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Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 20:15:48
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Most pictures of wood burning locomotives show the largest amount of wood that it is possible to fit in the alloted space. Unlike coal and oil, wood burns quickly requiring a copius supply. Your brass work is excellent but I think you should have used the maximum width of the tender for the wood to be plausible.
You could have one water hatch at the back of the wood load and still have room for an air tank or mount the tank on an extended rear pilot beam.
Have fun,
Tom |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 23:08:05
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All good points, Tom. I ran across an old wood burner prototype picture showing the same type of wood bunker dimensions, but I can't remember where. And, if I remember correctly, the wood could be stacked up from the loco's cab floor level to above the bunker rails,
with the bunker's width the same as the opening into the cab.
Here's the picture I used for the idea.
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Edited by - on 09 Jan 2007 07:58:13 |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
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Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:21:28
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That picture also shows some nice modeling! Typically the water tank portion would be U shaped and coal or wood would be stacked on the floor as you said. I saw a video of the rebuilt Eureka running on the Durango and Silverton where a big concern was adequate wood supply due to the voracious appetitie of the firebox. Lahey's Conungra tramway in Australia (the inspiration for the Catatonk Climax) stacked wood at points along their route to replenish the bunker of their locomotives.
If you get "Garden Railways" look at p129 of the Feb 07 issue and you'll see wood loads I made for two of my Shays based on pictures in the Pennsylvania logging series books.
In the end you can always do your own thing and chalk it up to modelers license just like we have to when the bunker area of our little steamers is needed for water supply, gas tank or electronics.
have fun,
Tom |
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