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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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 Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 09:10:10
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Now that my Ruby is getting substantial run time on some temporary track I laid, a second round of updates/fixes are in order.
The following updates/fixes are all the result of the burner problems I was having and are now fixed.
The extremely high heat in the smokebox caused by a way-too-rich flame and a resulting flame in the smokebox, enough to melt silver solder, took care of any and all white metal parts I had mounted in the vicinity of the smokebox This included my headlight, the headlight’s reflector and engine number mounted on the smokebox door.
So, I obtained an identical headlight in brass this time and silver soldered it to its brass mount and got it all ready for paint. Next I needed a new headlight reflector. I tried using the concave bottom of an aluminum pop can, but it wasn’t concave enough. I next hit on the idea of using a stainless steel ¼ teaspoon measuring spoon which turned out to be very close to the right diameter and depth. With a little dremel work, grinding, and filing, a satisfactory reflector (on the left) was fashioned from a run-of-the-mill set of measuring spoons (on the right). I hope my wife Gail doesn’t ever need that measuring spoon again :
Here it is slipped into to its new home in my headlight:
After painting, I will add my exact-sized watch crystal over the reflector and slip on the watch bezel that exactly fits over the headlight’s diameter. These items came from the original bash (scrool down to page 5).
Next I was on to prevent the smokebox door from losing its paint due to high heat or at least, limiting the paint’s discolorization.
In this modification I decided to add some insulation to the inside of the door. For the structure to hold the insulation, a layer of .020” thick sheet brass cut to approximately 1 ½” in diameter. I left four little tabs bent at 90 degrees to act as feet. A few added cut-outs to get around hinges, etc. (top right). I cut some 1/16” thick high-heat gasket material to fit the brass outline (top left) and also got a piece of reflective ductwork tape (bottom left) to be added to the very inside of the brass.
To hold it all in place, I replaced 4 of the .080” diameter hex head screws that embellish the front of the smokebox door with ½” long screws (bottom right)
This picture shows the front of the smokebox door with the 4 new hex head screws in place (on the left) and the 600 degree reflective tape attached (comes with a sticky backside) to the brass structure (on the right).
By this point, the drilling of the four matching holes for the long .080 hex head screws was done, and I'm ready for assembly. The reflective tape’s shiny side faces the inside of the smokebox, next is the brass structure with its legs used as stand-offs from the smokebox door to provide an air space, then the 1/16” thick high-heat gasket insulation and finally a gap for air right next to the door’s inside. Whoops, didn’t put on the nuts on the 4 screws before taking this out-of-focus picture, sorry.
And lastly, I will be mounting the new engine number brass plate on the front of the smokebox door and with some re-painting, I will be done, again .
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Edited by - on 26 Nov 2006 17:02:31
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 09:50:47
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A good idea to protect the front but wont simply reflecting the heat back into the smoke box just raise the heat level in the smoke box area?
Why not insulate the Ruby smoke box itself? Accucraft's smoke boxes are often/mostly separate from the boiler cladding so the boiler is wrapped with insulation and then there is a separate piece of insulation material which lines the inside of the smoke box and a thin sheet of rolled brass which holds it in place with holes cut for the stack and bottom cheat hole. The insulation blanket would need to be pretty thin for a ruby smokebox and might require splitting the thinnest blanket available but I would think it would help solve the smokebox overheating in addition to insulating the front of the smokebox.
Then again, maybe just lining te smokebox with a sheeeet of brass that provided smke added heat disipation without the blanket would also do the job.
I've seen a number of Ruby's with their stacks leaning back because the smokeboxes got so hot the copper softened and collapsed just from the weight of the stack. Easy enough to repair by reheating or overheating as befor and pushing the dent out or using a torch.
But if the poker burner happens to be simply a slotted poker you need to fix that first to limit the flame and heat output. Wire mesh and a brass sleeve over it (KO's design Accucraft used to supply) like most older Ruby's had and the newer Ruby's seem to come without. At least my Ruby Kit had just the plain naked poker, while my other Ruby's have mesh & sleeve burners. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 12:05:16
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Thanks Chris...all good points. The burner problem was fixed using Kevin's (KO-5) burner overlay. See this thread. So the smokebox is now running relatively cooler.
I've seen this type of change to the smokebox door successfully installed before, but only with a brass sheet and fiberglass insulation.
You make an excellent point about reflecting heat back into the smokebox. I'll try it with & without the reflective tape and measure temp differences with a digital thermometer between the two.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful input.
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 20:38:21
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I get these crazy ideas sometimes and venture wherre no-one should or would go...
It just occurred to me why someone hasn't fashioned some sort of tapered pipe that mated directly to the flue diameter and curved up tapering to the diameter of the stack to carry the exhasut directly to the stack. A small hole for the exhaust pipe to pass into the stack. In theory, this would eliminate the hot gases in the smoke box.
Possibly the reply would the burner combustion would be negatively affected. But conceptually the idea has a certain simple appeal if for no other reason that it channels the hot waste gases up the stack. I know KEvin's theory is to separate flue exhaust gases from steam exhaust for better plume, but preventing overheating of your smokebox and the resulting smokebox discoloration that seems to affect every accucraft steamer due to running the fire too hot and its resulting wasting heat energy and fuel seems worth correcting.
As a side note on a related idea... It has been an idea of mine for some time that some sort of movable dampener in the smoke box that in combination with a KO radiant burner would be a means of partially restricting the hot gases in the flue, think a plate that could be moved by a lever to partially cover the flue. this would allow for extracting more ofthe heat energy transferring more heat energy to the water in the boiler. The dampener would then be opened fully shortly after the initial rise in boiler pressure, and when it is of less usefulness.
I'm not sure both of these ideas could coexist. But I think the flue-to-stack pipe has more feasability and potential for results. The tapering of the flue-to-stack pipe would, I think, create some venturi effect with the reduction in the diameter.
If both are crazy please feel free to say so, I have only my entire ego and self worth tied up in them so the sooner they are rendered completely crazy the more quickly I will be able to terminate myself saving the multitudes here any public inflicting of painful ideas.
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 21:44:12
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Hi there Chris,
Ben there, done that, got the burned fingers to show for it! Well not realy, but Ian Pierce and Mike O'Rourke have. The Pierce American outline switcher (0-6-0/0-4-0?) has a wet smokebox of some sort (never had my hands on one yet) that incorporates a "T" type flue that directs exhaust gasses up and condensate down. With the wet front end's capacity for water the run time is extended, and a hot front end is not a problem.
O'Rourk's approach was a "J" type flue that swept up into the bottom of the Cricket's stack. The whole of the boiler barrel, front to back, is filled with boiler water. The problem with this design was operator insensitivity to the continued use of the "U" shaped condensate diverter that Mike included with the purchase of each Cricket. The "U" tube had to be inserted into the steam exhaust tube in the stack upon clearing the cylinder for the first, and every, run. It directed the condensate to the side of the loco, and did not permit it to flow down the "J" tube to the lit burner. If one did not use the "U" tube the resulting steam would extinguish the flame each and every time.
Mike finally got tired of trying to teach simple steam engineering to dim bulbs, and started to build Cricket boilers with a dry front end. I don't remember if he tried the Ian Pierce route with a "T" flue, but he did change to a flue that ended in a dry smokebox with a hole at top and bottom. The stack was affixed to the top, and the bottom hole was left as is.
The two Crickets in my collection that I operate regularly are both the "J" tube variant, and I have figured a way to clear the condensate from the cylinder without the use of a "U" tube. I have never had a flame out due to condensate backflow in the ten years that I have been operating these two locos.
A semi local fellow I know (a brother Coasty) has/had a "J" tube Cricket that he attempted to decorate with a headlight bracket. He drilled and tapped two holes into the top of the boiler just forward of the stack, mounted the bracket and a headlight, admired his handywork, and then proceeded to steamup to try it all out. Next he called me to tell me that his smokebox was leaking water and steam...."How could this be", he asked.
The key to a cooler smokebox is not to "remodel" the space, but rather improve the burner so that the heat of combustion remains in the boiler water and not be wasted going out the stack. To do this requires reworking the burner to operate more efficently. In the new Ruby II world this is best accomplished by trading out the stock gas jet with a Calor #3 jet for a start. The next safest bet is to wrap the business end of the poker with 60 denier stainless steel cloth, and add an extra wrap over the last third of the poker face in order to restrict burning at the poker's very end. This approach will give a very even, quiet, flame that will transfer heat into the flue and not blow it out (the heat) into the smokebox.
I do not recommend building a radiant burner for small diameter flues like in the Ruby. My "First Ruby" never has had a radiant burner, and I never saw the need for one. Its smokebox is painted a silver/aluminum color, and it is not discolored after ten years of use.
As you now know I've been working long distance with Howard to solve his Ruby II burner problems. He seems satisfied with the progress so far, but we are not done quite yet. On Wednesday we will TELCON and perform at least one more expirement on his burner. At some future date Howard is going to publish a show-n-tell thread of how it all came to be. My personal hope is that his information is heeded by at least the Ruby crowd, and that smokebox fires and just plain hot smokeboxes become an artifact of the hobby.
Best regards,
KO-5 |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 09:46:50
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Kevin,
Thanks for all the info.
I wonder how the new edition of Crickets will be built; J tube? With U tube or not? Or something else?
On the Ruby wouldn't drain cocks on the cylinders like yours provide for eliminating condensate and the J tube design work?
This past Saturday I ran an Ida I bought off eBay for the first time on Bob Weltyk's track. (Michigan in November and we ran on straight butane flawlessly.) The Ida, it was originally Daan Mitzel's of Michigan Live Steamers, had only been run a couple of times so was completely new looking, zero discoloration on the smokebox or door.
The burner had wire mesh and tapered opening brass sleeve (now of old it seems). It had been eccentric tuned and ran very smoothly.
When I first lit the burner the flame appeared to be coming from only a half the flame area. I removed the burner and found the sleeve had gotten rotated somehow so only half of the burner slot area was exposed and gas flowing from it.
It also had a the smaller smokebox cheat hole which has been mentioned in a number of threads as problematic, but I had no trouble at all with the burner, flame, or smooth running, the smokebox door open or closed. It was also very quiet. I also had very little condensate, which having three others, Ruby's or Mimi, (two tuned and one untuned) seemed unusual. There had been no alteration to the blast pipe that I could tell on visual inspection but I have not removed it to see if anything was done to it when the tuneup was done. The Ida originally came from Royce (~2 years ago) - who knows what he could have done to it?  There may be some secret formula at work?
I know my Ida experience is very different from Howard's Ruby experience and others with the small cheat hole in the smoke box, but thought I'd throw it in for reference. Then again it could ahve been due to Bb's track or the Michigan weather? We'll see what happens when Ida gets back to California. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 01:34:07
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Hey, can you post a photo of the headlight on the ruby?
Do you intend to illuminate it as well? I am looking for ideas for a reflector for the Mogul, and will eventually need a headlight for the ruby as well....
For what it's worth, I am currently experimenting with using magnet wire (enamel coated), soldered to the leads of grain of wheat bulbs.
The bulb I have is one that I obtained from Radio Shack. It is used for flashlights, and is pretty small - id say about 1/8" diameter, 3/8" long, and has some sturdy leads on it. Using two AA's (3v), it is BRIGHT! I hope to find something tomorrow, when I am more awake... :)
I am trying to get ready for a christmas walk on Friday night, so, in true family tradition I am rushing at the last minute :)
Later |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 08:52:05
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Just wanted to say "thanks" for the measuring spoon tip. Worked great on the head lamp I'm building.
Harvey C.
SA1838 |
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 16:29:42
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| The reflector section from a Mini-Maglite or any flashlight(Torch for those in the UK) works well too. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 17:05:48
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| I'm sure those plastic flashlight reflectors work well on engines with insulated smokeboxes. Not so sure how well they would hold up on a Ruby though. They can get pretty toasty up front there. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 08:28:01
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quote:
Originally posted by insanerocketkid
Hey, can you post a photo of the headlight on the ruby?
Mike, just click on my signature's Ruby picture and you'll get a variety of pictures.
When you get your headlight lit up, let us know how you did it....wire routing, battery placement, etc. As of now, I don't plan to illuminate mine, but you never know. |
Edited by - on 01 Dec 2006 08:38:26 |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 09:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by hcampbell
Just wanted to say "thanks" for the measuring spoon tip. Worked great on the head lamp I'm building.
Harvey C.
SA1838
Harvey
Your Welcome!! Glad it worked for you.
quote:
Originally posted by GNSteamer
The reflector section from a Mini-Maglite or any flashlight(Torch for those in the UK) works well too.
That's what I orginally tried in my original bash of the Ruby.....proceeded to quickly melt it into a small plastic glob along with all my whitemetal parts on or near the smokebox. You
"Live & Learn".
quote:
Originally posted by rwjenkins
I'm sure those plastic flashlight reflectors work well on engines with insulated smokeboxes. Not so sure how well they would hold up on a Ruby though. They can get pretty toasty up front there.
.
Even now that the flame is staying in the flue, you may be right. It is still very hot up front.
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 17:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by maculsay
After painting, I will add my exact-sized watch crystal over the reflector and slip on the watch bezel that exactly fits over the headlight’s diameter.
Here’s the headlight repainted and with the reflector, crystal and bezel CA’d in place:
Here it is mounted on the smokebox. The smokebox door is also back in place complete with its new insulation and engine number plate. I decided not to repaint the door yet. I kind of like the raw brass look.
I did get a chance to fire her up and the smokebox door’s exterior felt, by touch, to be a lot cooler. I have a new infrared temperature gauge ordered so I can see how hot it is now really getting. If anyone is interested, I’ll post the temperature differences between the inside of the smokebox and outside the smokebox door.
More later!!
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 15:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Scott
A good idea to protect the front but wont simply reflecting the heat back into the smoke box just raise the heat level in the smoke box area?
quote:
Originally posted by maculsay
You make an excellent point about reflecting heat back into the smokebox. I'll try it with & without the reflective tape and measure temp differences with a digital thermometer between the two.
Hello Chris;
I received my new infrared thermometer; and this morning I fired up the Ruby and started to take some temperature measurements. My thermometer has a laser target, so I was able to measure the exact same points each time. I also took the readings at the point in time that the boiler's safety valve triggered for each set of measurements.
The first set of measurements were taken with the smoke box door reflective layer of insulation inplace:
1. The boiler wall from inside the smoke box - 260 degrees F.
2. Inside the smokestack at the brass water baffle I installed - 200 deg. F. I got about the same temperature when targeting the smokestack exterior.
3. From outside the smoke box door - 150 deg. F.
I concluded that the smoke box door without any insulation at all would approximate the smokestack's exterior temperature. So with the door insulation, there's about a 50 deg. F. reduction.
After cooling down the boiler, I fired her up again.
The second set were taken with the smoke box door reflective layer of insulation removed:
1. The boiler wall from inside the smoke box - 260 degrees F. same as before.
2. Inside the smokestack at the brass water baffle I installed - 205 deg. F...a minor increase.
3. From outside the smoke box door - 160 deg. F...a 15 deg. F. increase.
It would appear that the heat is reflected back into the smoke box by the reflective layer of insulation is only slightly increasing the internal smoke box temperature, but better yet, it further reduces the exterior of the door temps by about 15 deg. F.
I'm Happy |
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