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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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 Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 23:38:03
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I got all the way to the Saturday's steam up at Sonny Wizelman's here in L.A. and found that I forgot my camera. NUTS!!!
Many great folks attended and I oogled over their wonderful engines. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get my Ruby's burner to stay lit without opening the gas vslve way too far. Actually, so much the I started to melt some of the white metal parts. Anyway, after numerous tries and with some great help from those that were there, I gave up and just enjoyed watching the running of the many fine live steamers.
After returning home, I disassembled the burner, removed the gas jet and the supply line. I found lots of teflon tape fragments in the butane pathway.
Today, I gave it another try. I was able to get it stay lit, enough to get a few good runs(on blocks), but the flame continued to flash into the smokebox. I've tried adjusting the air flow sleeve and the burner sleeve, ala the Dave Hottmann's modification found here on MLS. Even though I'm getting a real clear blue flame out of the burner, some lazy-wandering blue flame still reaches into the smokebox, even with the gas valve turned way down. Again, generating enough heat to melt my headlight. I'm wondering if I'm getting unburned butane flowing into the smokebox and burning there??
Nothing has helped so far. Tomorrow's another day.
Any suggestions will be welcomed.
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Edited by - on 11 Sep 2006 23:53:26
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Sep 2006 : 23:52:01
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| I saw everybody helping you Saturday and thought you had it under control. Sorry, I should have butt in. Sounds as if you might have a defective jet. Did anybody stick something hard thru it. like a wire. I know there are some that insist on doing that! |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 00:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Starr
I saw everybody helping you Saturday and thought you had it under control. Sorry, I should have butt in. Sounds as if you might have a defective jet. Did anybody stick something hard thru it. like a wire. I know there are some that insist on doing that!
Thanks Bob. Nope, nobody suggested that, infact they all said not to do that. I did blow out the jet while there, but it turned out that the teflon fragments were sitting in the elbow just ahead of the jet. I'm now wondering if the gas tank needs cleaning also?
Today, I got it to stay lit, but having trouble keeping the flame in the flue. |
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Conductor
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 00:26:22
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I think Bob is suggesting that if your jet had a piece of wire inserted through it it would then become defective. Because hard objects should never be inserted into the jet. Your problem with the small flame in the smoke box may be due to a problem that I also had on my 2 cylinder Shay. After about three years of flawless operation the small plug in the the end of the burner de-soldered itself and a small torch like flame started burning in my smoke box which burned all the paint off my smoke box door. I had a friend turn a new end plug for the burner with a flange to deflect any escaping gas out towards the flue walls If you are having this problem and you do not have access to a lathe to drill the old plug out and turn yourself a new one then I'm sure Accucraft would send you a new burner. Good luck.
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 09:37:54
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Hi Howard,
Good to see you on Saturday! I didn't think of it at the time, but I noticed you had installed an exhaust standpipe in your smokebox. Did you try firing it before installation, and if so, had it worked succesfully? Did you change the front end venting in any way? Sometimes, it can take a nearly invisible bit of junk to foul a jet. I know, I have a 'first generation' Ruby that had a very similar problem. I had to disassemble and clean not only the jet, but the entire fuel system (including tank) several times before it would work. I would go that route before doing anything, then hit Cliff up for a replacement jet, as Eric suggests. Or a new burner, if necessary.  |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 09:43:53
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I believe Kevin O'Conner wrote somewhere that a fire in the smoke box was always a sign of too rich a flame.
I have found that *Any* debris in the gas supply bits can cause this problem. The first thing I now always check when I am not satisfied with the flame, including smokebox flame, is that the copper pipe and it's gas nozzle don't have bits of Teflon or black junk (from gas tank or pipe) impeding the flow of gas.
Any leaks around the nozzle threads will mess up the poker burner flame, and require cleaning and replacement of the pipe dope. If you are careful, you can hold a flame to the nozzle with a tiny bit of gas flow and detect leaks around the threads. Or, a safer method is to hold the nozzle under water, plugging the hole with your finger and looking for bubbles at the threads.
I also have found that liquid teflon pipe dope will dry out with time and shed bits. Or, it will blow out of the threads, again making a problem with the flame. Teflon tape can migrate over time, and I recently cleaned a previously working jet whose tape had almost blocked the gas flow. Plus, the normal thin tape will shed tiny threads that can migrate to the orifice. There is a thicker version of Teflon tape, made for gas joints. I have not used it, and wonder if it might be too thick for our very fine nozzle threads. I use liquid dope now, and just accept that I'll have to clean and replace it periodically.
I think I read that some Accucraft nozzles were sent out with too large a hole. A larger hole might give you a rich flame. You could compare your nozzle to a functioning Ruby's nozzle to see if your hole is bigger. I can see the difference in hole sizes between my Ruby and my other, larger, locos, so probably you could spot the difference by eye.
The Afterburner cone is another solution, but I'd first ensure your system is not troubled by debris, thread leakage, or hole size.
Afterburner thread:
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=33625
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Edited by - on 12 Sep 2006 09:56:24 |
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 10:26:38
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Hi Brooks,
Correct me If I did something wrong.As you know I own several Accucraft engines(If not to many)as: K27,C21,C16,Shay,Ruby.... and the list go on...But None of them I keep a teflon tape on the threat jets nozzle at all.Without it.They all funtional.None of them gave me any problem so far.Occasional I did use very fine wire (which is I obtain from Aster engine kit) to clean the nozzle jet for mine and my member club engines whenever they got the problem with their burners.Again so far They all work beautifully.I guess you got to know what you do.
Hung Ta |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 10:58:50
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| I agree with Hung Ta. I do not use teflon tape on my connections, any of them. They all work fine. Perhaps the teflon tape is worsening the issue. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 09:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ray C.
Hi Howard,
Good to see you on Saturday! I didn't think of it at the time, but I noticed you had installed an exhaust standpipe in your smokebox. Did you try firing it before installation, and if so, had it worked succesfully? Did you change the front end venting in any way? Sometimes, it can take a nearly invisible bit of junk to foul a jet. I know, I have a 'first generation' Ruby that had a very similar problem. I had to disassemble and clean not only the jet, but the entire fuel system (including tank) several times before it would work. I would go that route before doing anything, then hit Cliff up for a replacement jet, as Eric suggests. Or a new burner, if necessary.
Thanks for the input, Ray. I've re-installed the original smokestack and blastpipe, but haven't taken the time to try it yet.
As for smokebox mods, I did the Dave Hottmann mod to make the bottom opening like the older Ruby models. If the return to the original smokestack and blastpipe doesn't change anything, I may have to reblock some of the bottom opening and give that a try .
Anyway, I'll post the results here.
What does it take to clean the butane tank
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 09:35:45
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Thanks Folks for all of your inputs....I'm working down through the list of ideas you all have given me to see if any of them will work in my specific situation.
As for using teflon tape....I didn't use the tape on my jet assembly....it came in the kit that way. I've removed it all and now will check for butane leaks.
Will keep you all posted. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 09:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ray C.
Hi Howard,
Good to see you on Saturday! I didn't think of it at the time, but I noticed you had installed an exhaust standpipe in your smokebox. Did you try firing it before installation, and if so, had it worked succesfully?
quote:
Originally posted by maculsay
Thanks for the input, Ray. I've re-installed the original smokestack and blastpipe, but haven't taken the time to try it yet.
There was some improvement by re-installing the stock smokestack and exhaust pipe. From a test, I found that my exhaust standpipe may be causing any unburnt butane from a too-rich mixture to build up in the smokebox causing it to reburn.
So I added vents at the top of my standpipe to allow for more venting of the smokebox.
Kevin O'Connor has also been helping me via email and he's convinced, so far, that a too-rich mixture of butane to air is at the root of my problem. We are experimenting with the positioning of the jet into the burner to see if we can get more air into the butane stream and will that solve the problem. He calls it the classic Ruby "too-big-a-jet-and-not-enough-air" syndrome which apparently was characteristic of the first-generation Rubys.
This got me thinking So, I went back to re-read Dave Hottmann's burner mod and he had also added two 2mm holes right next to the screw that holds the burner in place to get more air into the butane/air mix. Whoops, I missed that part of his mod . I've now done that and will test it today at the Bill Turkel Steam-up.
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 12:30:11
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Hope it works out for you! I'm not sure if my ruby has suffered from that issue yet. I haven't had any flameouts, so that makes me feel good. I typically use a piece of silicone tubing (aircraft fuel tube) slipped over the (now cut-off tip) exhaust pipe -- this drains the cylinders outside of the locomotive (you could vent it into a cup if you wanted), and prevents snuffing the fire. Before doing this, my fire would always go out upon starting up (from a cold boiler)
You learn new things all the time, and now I'm working on installing r/c in the ruby. So far the first attempt was not successful :(
Later! |
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Brakeman
Australia
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Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 00:04:06
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Harold,
try removing the burner, cut apiece of fine S/steel or bronze wire mesh[ like filter gauze] just long enough to cover the slots..roll up round a 1/4" diameter rod, tight and smoothly, cut of the excess so you have asingle layer, and slide it in from the mixing chamber end , the idea is to cover the burner slots inside . work it out against the tube wall using a rod, mandrel. this will slow down the gas/air mixture and its exit speed, easier to light. quieter, and generally stops the smokebox . lambent flame problem.
Gordon. |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 23:11:07
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An UPDATE; For the most part, I spent my time at the Bill Turkel steamup (Saturday) trying different suggestions made by some of the good folks attending. I still had the same problem of keeping the flame in the flue....whether on a cold or warmed up boiler. In fact, I melted the silver solder holding my new brass light to its mount base with the heat geneated in the smokebox.
Another thing I noticed is that when the flame is in the flue...it doesn't burn smoothly and the sound varies with the flame's uneveness. I had recently cleaned the jet and the tubing coming from the gas tank, so I didn't think it was junk in the jet. In an earlier reply to this thread, Ray Cadd suggested that the butane tank may require cleaning. I will put this on my list of things to do.
We had little or no wind at the steamup to affect the flame. I tried butane from different cannisters to see if I had contaminated gas...no change.
This morning (Sunday) I tried a Kevin O'Connor experiment to get more air to mix with the butane....moved the jet back to where it's tip was just at the air holes of the burner mount. Didn't observe any change in the color of the flame in the flue at this position. Actually, the further I move the jet back, the more easily the flame seemed to jumped into the smokebox.
I then tried positioning the jet in a number of places in between the most forward position and the most rearward position and observed no change in the flame's shape or color or sound.
I tried all of this at a number of different gas valve settings, lowest possible to keep a flame going out to a more robust setting....all yielding about the same results.
The other thing I'm experiencing is that closing the smokebox door ultimately makes the flame go out, so I did all the experiments with the door open.
One suggestion I got from Bob Starr was to reduce the size of the jet's orifice, since reportedly some Rubys have been delivered with an oversized jet. I guess I can use a "reducing punch" to repair oversize holes to do this. I can always get another #3 jet from Cliff at Accucraft...so there's nothing to lose, so to speak.
This afternoon (again Sunday), I again cleaned the jet and all of the tubing and fittings leading up to the jet....but this time the flame smoothed out and I got the best run (on blocks) I've ever had. The pressure went right up to 30 lbs. and the safety valve was spewing steam, another first
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Edited by - on 30 Oct 2006 06:56:21 |
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Brakeman
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 05:49:10
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| Howard.....I thought that Accucraft numbered their jets "backwards" from what you would think. #4 jet was for the smaller enginer like the Ruby and #3 for the larger engines line the C21. Could you have the wrong size jet in your engine ??? |
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 06:45:00
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| Have you tryed cutting a bigger hole for the botom of the smoke box. I had the same problem and that seems to have fixed the problem. |
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