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Engineer
Australia
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 Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 03:42:47
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USA Train locos are arguably the easiest in which to install battery R/C.
They are well made and have plenty of room up inside the hood for an effective antenna.
I usually achieve at least 200'.
Here is how I have gone about installing my RCS battery R/C inside a GP-9.
The techniques are straightforward and can be adapted to other brands of R/C as well.
The same ideas can be applied to most USAT diesel locos, including the bigger 3 axle models.
There are basically two ways of going about it depending on how you want to set up the loco.
The simplest method only involves disconnecting the track pick-up wiring from the trucks and re-connecting the wires to the output of the motor Driver pcb.
The result is much the same as running on track power. The lights will work exactly the same way and go out when the loco is stopped.
I prefer to have the lights on constantly even when stopped. This involves a little bit more wiring and the addition of a RELAY so that the coloured marker lamps will change colour correctly with direction change.
The most difficult part of the installation is dismantling the loco.
You will need a very long Phillips head screwdriver that will reach down into the holes where the screws are buried. Some screws are also under the fuel tank so it needs to be removed as well. If the screwdriver is long enough you may be able to wriggle it down between the truck wheels to access the holes. If not, you may need to remove the trucks to get at the holes.
Once the body is off the chassis I remove the smoke units and all attendant wiring. They draw a lot of power and will reduce run times dramatically.
I leave all the lighting wiring and the switch pcb in place.
The track pick-up wiring is also removed from the trucks. These are plugs with FOUR wires attached. Leave the motor wiring in place.
I have always found 14.4 volts is sufficient for a realistic top speed.
In my early installations I used two 1800 mah 7.2 volt Sub C Ni-Cad packs. These provided a reasonable run time but are bulky compared to AA size NiMh batteries now available.
Of course you can use a greater voltage but if you run at a realistic speed you will waste the battery capacity by burning it off in the form of heat.
To make room for the Sub-C packs I had to remove two stanchions.
The Sub-C packs were tied together with cable ties and then mounted in place using a clear silicone adhesive. I use Selleys Roof & Gutter Sealant.
This method allows the RCS Motor Driver pcb to be mounted on the batteries with the Dallee sound mounted on the rear lead weight.
With later installations I now use custom made 14.4 packs of 2,500 mah AA size NiMh batteries.
These give adequate run times for most situations. I don't like jamming huge batteries into the narrow bodies as it usually requires a lot of modification to make them fit. Extra long run times can be easily achieved by utilising the rear mounted external charge jack as a port for plugging in auxiliary batteries carried in a trail car. Be extra careful not to get any glue in the jack itself.
With this particular installation I mounted the RF-RX radio receiver in the nose and connected the antenna to the track. This provided reasonable range.
Nowadays I prefer to mount the RF-RX part up under the top of the body shell right behind the cab. I shorten the RCS antenna and connect an AZARR 27 Mhz antenna from E Cubed R/C and stretch it out in a straight line as high as possible.
I now achieve at least 200' range when proper motor "noise" suppression is added to the motor circuits. Sometimes more.
The rear lead weight made a great heatsink for the RCS Motor Driver IC I was using up until recently.
Here is an early BIK-U installation kit mounted in the fuel tank. This enables a hidden switch that is still accessible.
A later version of the same switch kit.
I mounted the Dallee sound in the fuel tank too. Two holes had been drilled underneath to gain access to the volume controls.
For Sierra type sound I fit the BIK-U+VC which has an inbuilt volume control.
Here is how the plugs and sockets are re-arranged for the simplified installation.
For the constant lighting version this shows how to do it.
I trust the above is of help to LS'ers.
Please feel free to contact me with any specific enquiries. |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 04:48:45
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Thanks for the information. You make it look so easy that I will have to give this a try. I don't want all of my locos running on battery, but I would like a few.
Art |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 11:01:34
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Tony,
That's a beauty. I have two GP9s that have been fitted for trail cars but someday I can see that I'd enjoy having them self contained. Just FYI, what noise suppression do you use? I am not sure how much effect it will have in my case w/ the motors in the loco and the RX and batteries in a trail car but seems the next logical place for me to make improvements to try to get better range (along with improved antenna)
Thanks,
Frank |
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Engineer
Australia
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Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 13:39:40
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Hello Frank.
A discussion on suppressing motors was held here.
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19640
If you are using the popular trick of taking the trackside TE out of the case and using it in a trail car you may not know the 27 Mhz trackside TE already has an RF Choke suppressor on the pcb.
It is the thing that looks like a donut wrapped in wire and helps greatly in the 27 Mhz trackside TE achieving good range compared to the on board 75 Mhz TE.
Never having tried one, I cannot comment on whether or not the AZARR antenna will improve range with the Trackside TE in a trail car. |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 02:23:26
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Tony,
Thanks for the thread/link...no need reposting what's gone before. Yes trackside TE in a trail car...the aftermarket antenna (Black Kat or AZARR) might just be for a better installation. I have never gotten real good reception with the TE antenna onboard...compared to trackside w/it sticking straight up!
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Conductor
1st Class Member
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 10:27:35
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Hi Tony,
I did once try an Azarr antenna with a trackside TE and got poor range. In retrospect, I think that may have resulted in an error in how I mounted it. I believe that the active (yellow) part of the antenna was supposed to be completely straight. As you can see from my photo, the end nearest the TE has a 90° bend in it. I gave up working with that configuration berfore I realized my possible mistake. This particular arrangement didn't reach much beyond 10 feet.
Llyn
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Conductor
Canada
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 12:02:01
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Originally posted by Tony Walsham, “The most difficult part of the installation is dismantling the loco.”
I agree, however, there are very detailed instructions and photos on our web site showing how to remove the track power wiring from the GP-9 motor blocks, open the shell, remove the smoke units and close the shell. Just click on the following link.
http://ovgrs.editme.com/powercarplugs
“You will need a very long Phillips head screwdriver that will reach down into the holes where the screws are buried.”
A Phillips screwdriver with a magnetic tip really helps get those screws out. But if the screws get stuck in their plastic burrows, a stack of 1/8 inch round, rare earth magnets in a shrink wrap tube is an excellent way to extract them.
“The track pick-up wiring is also removed from the trucks. These are plugs with FOUR wires attached. Leave the motor wiring in place.”
I had problems with the USAT slip-on connectors for the motor blocks on my diesels. They tend to loosen when the motor blocks turn and the wiring rubs on the fuel tank. I removed the connectors and brass rods and soldered the wires directly to the motor tabs to eliminate the problem.
You may experience a similar problem with the switch toggles for your sound system on the fuel tank. I found out the hard way. Beautiful sound system installation! I have filed that picture away for future reference.
Until I hard wired the motors, I had range with your competitor’s 75 MHz receiver. The range is still poor, but at least now I can get the locomotive to slow down and stop. It appears that these connectors may contribute to motor noise. No scientific proof, just my experience!
“I don't like jamming huge batteries into the narrow bodies as it usually requires a lot of modification to make them fit.”
Like you, I always find installation of the battery packs the biggest challenge. I use two, 9.2 volt, NiMH packs to run my diesels. The tightest squeeze was the USAT NW-2. These two, Radio Shack, eight AA cell, battery holders are standing upright and just fit between the posts. I have removed the power distribution board, as the receiver controls all the motor and light functions.
I can get 3 ˝ hours of run time from My FA-1, RS-3 and GP-9 using these packs. I do not run smoke or sound and the headlights and number boards are LEDs. Future power conversions will probably use a 21 volt, 2 amp hour, Lithium-Ion battery pack; as they are about the size of ONE of these 9.2 volt packs.
“Nowadays I prefer to mount the RF-RX part up under the top of the body shell right behind the cab. I shorten the RCS antenna and connect an AZARR 27 Mhz antenna from E Cubed R/C and stretch it out in a straight line as high as possible. I now achieve at least 200' range when proper motor "noise" suppression is added to the motor circuits.”
Incredible! I use the E Cubed R/C 75 MHz “Black Kat” antenna in my power conversions. So far, only my FA-1 has decent range, but no where near 200 feet. I guess I am going to re-read that noise suppression post again. Perhaps this is the missing piece in my R/C installations.
In my 27 MHz power car, I just hot glued the antenna around the inside of the walls of the gondola. Although folding it back around breaks the rules, I get good range with this set-up, but not 200 feet. If I was that far away from my locomotive, I wouldn’t be able to see it. 
Thank you for your post and photos Tony! This type of post is always informative.
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Conductor
Canada
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 12:06:41
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| Llyn, what did you use to cut the large and small indents in that 2 x 4? |
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Engineer
Australia
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 13:31:24
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Hello Paul,
Thank you for your contribution.
I know 200'+ sounds fantastic but that is exactly what I have achieved.
I documented it in this thread some time ago.
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27570
The pictures show it.
The secret seems to be not only adding RF-chokes to the motor lines but also to keep the RCS receiver part as far away as possible from the other electronics, the batteries and the magnetic fields of the batteries.
In fact, I have achieved over 300' with the USAT F3's with this set up.
The extending in a straight line rule achieves maximum range but even putting the AZARR antenna up in the confines of a cab roof works better than a stock antenna.
Here is how I did it in an LGB # 50
Scroll down to the bottom of this thread to see how.
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28522
Also in a Bachmann 45T diesel.
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24175
After a lot of experimentation I came to the conclusion that 22µh RF chokes work best for the RCS equipment. Although anything around that value, even up to the regular 100µh parts from Radio Shack, are better than nothing.
The on board Crest equipment may need a different value.
I have not tried a Black Kat antenna so I cannot comment on them. |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 15:02:55
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Hi Paul,
I used a milling machine to whittle that part. First, I used a face mill to make both sides smooth and parallel and then I used an end mill for the fancy cuts. It's overkill, but, the milling machine allows me to do some neat work that would be harder to accomplish otherwise.
Llyn |
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Conductor
Canada
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 18:42:32
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Originally posted by TonyWalsham. “The secret seems to be not only adding RF-chokes to the motor lines but also to keep the RCS receiver part as far away as possible from the other electronics, the batteries and the magnetic fields of the batteries.”
Thanks Tony! Our group has run nothing but battery power and radio control for years. The 27 MHz receivers in trailing cars, B units and steam tenders have always worked well, however, we are not having the same success with the 75 MHz receiver.
Unfortunately, as you can see by the picture of my NW-2 above, there is no choice of receiver placement in the NW-2. It is either in front of the battery packs or behind them. Both ways were tried, but no success.
The Black Kat antenna was tried both under the hood (shown above) and under the roof of the cab (shown below). Even the wire antenna was re-attached and wrapped around a plastic sheet under the cab roof and under the hood, but still no luck.
The receiver in my RS-3 is under the short hood and the battery packs under the long hood separated by the cab. I tried the Black Kat antenna under the short hood and then the wire antenna under the long hood, but the range was not acceptable either way.
Thanks again for the suggestions. Definitely time to try noise suppression, or RCS 27 MHz receivers!
BTW: We always remove all the electronics from our locomotives before we do our power conversions. It leaves more room for the batteries and R/C components. Does anyone know if the power distribution boards in either A-C or USAT diesels have any form of noise suppression built in?
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Engineer
Australia
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Posted - 02 Jan 2006 : 20:18:04
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Hi Paul.
quote:
Does anyone know if the power distribution boards in either A-C or USAT diesels have any form of noise suppression built in?
To the best of my knowledge there is no suppression on the loco pcb's in either brand.
On the AC SD-45 and other AC locos there are a .1µf capacitor and small varistor mounted inside the trucks on small pcb's. How effective they are I have no idea. They may be designed specifically for Crest equipment.
I have tried the same idea in the past without any significant improvement over not having them.
By far the best method I have discovered is an RF choke in each motor lead with small monoliths across the motor wires to ground. The caps work best close to the motors but anywhere between the RF chokes and the motors is OK.
The resident theoretical "expert" says that is not the correct place but it works for me. So I use and recommend the practice myself.
I have not tried suppression techniques with any other brand of R/C.
I do agree that the slide on motor connections can provide iffy connection if not tight.
Hardwiring the motor wires will certainly improve power connection to the USAT trucks and could produce an improvement in range. I have tried that too, but I dd not notice any range difference compared to the regular slip on connectors.
With your permission I would be pleased to include the "How to dismantle USAT locos" link to your website in future USAT installs I do. |
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Conductor
Canada
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Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 08:39:05
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Hi Tony!
You are quite welcome to link to our web site. The primary reason for our site is to share information with other garden railroaders. As most of the information has been gathered from fellow enthusiasts like you, I lay no claim to exclusive rights.
Paul Norton
Ottawa Valley GRS
http://www.ovgrs.org
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Conductor
Canada
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Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 12:36:10
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Originally posted by Tony Walsham. “To the best of my knowledge there is no suppression on the loco pcb's in either brand. On the SD-45 and other A-C locos there is a .1µf capacitor and small varistor mounted inside the trucks on a small pcb. How effective they are I have no idea. They may be designed specifically for Crest equipment.“
Well that solves one mystery! I opened the motor blocks of my FA-1 this morning. As you stated, there is a small circuit board with two components on it bridging the motor terminals. This is the only diesel converted to radio control using the A-C 75 MHz receiver that has decent range. The other two, an old RS-3 and NW-2, do not have these circuit boards and have very poor range. Obviously some RF noise suppression will be required in the other two.
I now have one more question. If the motor tabs are being bridged with electrical components (caps and varistors), why is this not a short circuit?
Thank you for your help! As usual a big problem has a simple solution, if you know where to look.
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 20:30:36
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Paul, the bridging of a cap and varistor across motor terminals is not a short because the cap blocks DC. The component combination(resistor and capacitor) creates a tuned circuit hopefully designed to shunt the primary interference frequency noise component to ground or into a piece of shield metal where it can do less harm.
I have been using both black kat and the yellow 27 meg Azarr antenna on installs when needed since 2001 or thereabouts, and have found results in general to be excellent.
Llyn, it really does not matter that you had a bend in the yellow wire part of your antenna install, this will not make an appreciable difference, nor will routing an antenna around the perimeter of the roof of a car or loco. The one really important rule is not to cross the antenna over itself in the install. if this happens, it effectively shortens the antenna electrically. Even winding the antenna on a wooden dowel or similar is effective, and far better than crossing it in any way. |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
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Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 17:02:51
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Hi Jonathan,
Then I really don't know what the problem was with my antenna. As you can see from the photo, the wire has a 90° bend; but, it does not cross itself. When I later substituted a 17" wire that ran around the perimeter of the roof, it worked a lot better. Oh well, I've settled on using Airwire900 which has good range and is very reliable.
Llyn |
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