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Rayman4449
Engineer
USA
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 Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 21:44:36
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I'm starting a new thread so everyone can express their feedback on the new engine. *Good idea Dave H.* :)
I’ve taken a couple days off to think my review through a bit before I posted. Sorry for the delay.
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Appearance (paint): I will start with my biggest issue with the engine, its color. My engine is painted with a florescent pink where it should be a deep red. The color of the prototype in the 2004 catalog doesn't look like this. Quite frankly I really dislike the look of the engine solely because of the color.
Appearance (detail): The Daylight compares well to the Challenger in detail. It has great detail and is beautiful in that respect. (what I’ve come to expect from MTH.) The plastic has a very nice sheen to it and has a fairly decent feel as far as ruggedness. The engine bell is missing, but I find that to be a minor thing. There was a noticeable substitution of plastic accessories that were brass on the Challenger, such as stairs, and small tubing. While not that big a deal, I think the use of brass for those parts on the Challenger really added to the overall feel of high quality the engine had.
The mars light is really cool and a very nice touch. It DOES have the firebox glow, but it's only visible through the small sanding door on the back of the firebox and only seen by looking in the cab windows.
Tender : The Tender trucks could be better designed in my opinion. Unlike the Aristocraft heavyweight trucks that are sprung and can conform to uneven track, the GS4’s tender trucks are rigid and don’t seem to conform to the track. My lead tender truck is actually slightly warped with one axle actually slightly lifted off the track even on level track. I actually think these are minor issues as I imagine the front tender truck can be ‘worked’ out with a little tinkering. As far as weight, the tender weighs exactly 4 lbs. My Challenger tender weighs 9 lbs 12 oz (I have added around 3 lbs maybe a little more.) so the GS4 tender feels a little light, but that can be easily corrected. My concern with the weight is possibly derailing when backing any decent length passenger train. (I have not tested this yet) The GS4 tender doesn’t feel as strong as the Challenger’s.
Update: Further inspection of the tender truck shows they are made in three pieces and can be made to flex. Adding additional weight should get them to sit flat.
Running Characteristics: The GS4 runs extremely smooth at slow speeds and the motors are silent just like the Challenger except at higher speeds. The gearing has changed so that you can no longer push the engine and have the wheels turn. If you push the engine, the wheels stay locked up tight. While I prefer the Challenger’s gearing where it moves smoothly to the push, I think MTH may have had a reason as the large drivers may have resulted in an engine too easy to move when stopped. That could be a problem if you were trying to stop on a hill when pulling a load. I think the gear change is why you can hear the wirring sound from the engine when it's crusing at speed. I prefer the silence of the Challenger on this, but again, it's not bad. It does run smooth at the higher speeds. Under a heavy load of 11 Aristocraft Heavyweights, the Daylight slows just a bit up the grade on my main oval. (I think the electronics were giving as much juice as it would give to the motor.) Again, not a big deal. 11 Heavyweights is a lot of weight. From what John Allman has said about how easy to roll the MTH cars are the GS-4 should be able to pull a 10 car MTH consist without much problem. As far as backing up the consist, for the tender's light weight, it did a good job (no derailments) with only 5 cars behind it.
After originally thinking the connecting rods were metal from just a visual inspection, I have learned from ArticluatedAL that the connecting rods etc are all plastic. While I definately prefer all metal as they've done with their Hudson and Challenger, it seems that even LGB does this with their Mikados, so their maybe more reason behind going with plastic.
Articulation: This was one feature that surprised me and one I’d never heard of before. (I’m new to the hobby if you didn’t know.) When I first heard about it, I thought the idea was a little hokey, but after seeing it in action, I actually like the way it can articulate, it actually looks good and runs smooth through the 10ft diameter on my basement feeder line. Kudos to MTH on this one.
Sound: The whistle and bell sound great…. Good quality and true to the original engine. The chuff volume is only half as loud as the Challenger which was a bit of a disappointment. (The chuff volume on the Challenger is so loud it will deafen you.) The bell and whistle volume as well as the starting hissing sound is just as loud as the Challenger. The chuff sound itself is the exact same one used in the Challenger except it doesn’t have the off-beat chuff pattern. Overall, the only sound change I would make would be a louder chuff volume.
Note: The air horn can be sounded by SAH quick button or by the 'more' on the quick buttons and scroll to 39 Aux air horn.
Control (Protosound 2): I’m still sold 100% on the Protosound 2 control and sound. With the press of 2 buttons, I can instantaneously match the speed of all engines as well as control/match the whistle, bell, volume control, speed, lights, smoke generators, and on and on all simultaneously. With two MTH engines double-headed, in my case the Challenger and Daylight, my backyard is filled with the sounds of steam locomotives! It’s very impressive!
Conclusion:
Positives: Detail, smooth & silent running(at slow speeds), overall accuracy to the real engine, overall appearance, Protosound 2 controls/sound
Negatives: Paint color!, substitution of plastic on the accessories(instead of brass), chuff volume, gear noise (at higher speeds), plastic connecting rods
Because the paint issue stands out so bad for me, it really affects the way I feel about the whole engine. Honestly, if the engine was painted in the correct colors, I would be so tickled pink(no pun intended) that I would have a Daylight with Protosound 2 running on my layout that the other anomalies like the tender truck not sitting flat, all plastic accessories instead of brass wouldn’t have been as big a deal. If it was painted correctly, it would be a no-brainer decision to buy one or multiple engines and a full consist of cars.
Do I have a suggestion for would be buyers? Yes, look the pictures I’ve posted showing the actual colors very carefully before you order. If it looks good to you, order it and enjoy it! I really think you will love the engine and think it will give you many many hours of reliable run time. (my Challenger has over 250 hours run time and still runs and sounds good as new.) From what I’ve seen of the cars in pictures, they look fantastic. If you don’t like the color and won’t be purchasing an engine and passenger car set because of it, then I would send MTH an email or call them to voice your opinion. Otherwise your only option is Accucraft and you have another whole area of things to watch for there… the least of which is the $3000 price tag.(assuming they are even still available.)
I was originally planning on a full consist of 10 MTH Daylight cars and ($$ permitting) a second GS4 that I would swap the smoke box door out to make a GS-3(close enough, ok), but am not so sure what I will do. With the Daylight being my favorite engine, I can’t begin to express my disappointment because of the color. I’m not sure right now what I’m going to do with it. I currently have a Freedom version of this engine on order and am just hoping like heck that it is painted in Red White and Blue, not pink, white and baby florescent blue.
I had hoped that maybe after a little time had passed that my opinion might have changed on the engine color, but it hasn’t. The colors are just way too off for my taste. My friend that lives behind me (who is partially color blind) came by to check the new engine out and said the ‘red’ looks pink.
For those who have not seen the pictures (or videos) visit my site at:
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/MTH_Daylight_GS4.htm
I'm still working on processing additional videos and pictures so check back often.
Raymond
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Need a Non-MTH engine equipped with DCS Protosound 2? I can help.
 Raymond - Gardner, KS
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com
Edited by - Rayman4449 on 30 Oct 2005 09:37:51
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Rayman4449
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 21:58:22
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Also, as far as comparing this engine to the Accucraft... Well, yes of course the Accucraft is a much finer made model, but for $3000 it should be.
If the MTH was painted in the proper colors I would say that except for those who really had the money to spend on the Accucraft (or was just a plain Daylight nut like me.) then I would say the MTH would fully satisfy anyone wanting a GS-4 on their layout. It has more than enough detail and is plenty accurate enough to fill that slot in your roster.
Raymond
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Need a Non-MTH engine equipped with DCS Protosound 2? I can help.
Raymond - Gardner, KS
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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Charles
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 06:04:28
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Raymond
You forgot one aspect that would drive me away (other than paint) that is electric sliders!!! Can you remove and will the engine still function?
Awaiting others comments to see if their paint scheme is also off color.
Your overview is a good brief but would really like a indepth comparsion AC to MTH Daylight to go along with the bottom line of your analysis. So far, if the color was right then MTH would be the best buy...
Interesting MTH vs AC and then AC vs Aster GS-4
Aster GS-4 has much more detail aspects such as on the drive rods the oval opening where the AC does not. Of course the Aster is fully sprung suspension, full throttle valve, blow down off the bottom of the boiler, axle water pump in a better position, etc but with that said none of these impact performance combined with great fit and finish, well maybe one day Accucraft will have the status and people will say, "it's an Accucraft..."
So, comparsion with the tape would be:
Dimensions
Weight
Motor capacity (probably AC has the flywheel arrangement allowing for free wheel movement). By the way our Aster electric Pacific has a flywheel arrangement with "big drivers" so no excuse for MTH they should have done the same for GS4 as with Challenger.
Details (firebox glow would not have been important on an oil burner)
Sound
Lighting
Pulling/draw bar capacity
Track requirements
Here are the Aster electric specifications:
ELECTRIC VERSION
Scale/Gauge: 1/32. No. 1 Gauge (45 mm)
Total Weight: 19.4 kg. (Engine 11.4 kg. + Tender 8.0 kg.)
Dimensions:
Length: ob. 1.044 mm (Engine 624 mm + Tender 440 mm)
Width: Engine 104 mm, Tender 106 mm
Height: Engine 156 mm, Tender 145 mm
Wheel Arrangement:
4-8-4 (all wheels insulated on both sides)
Drivers: Dia. 62 mm with stainless steel tires and equalized spring action.
Drivers axles: Miniature ball bearings x 8
Minimum Radius: 3 meters
D.C. Motor X 1:
Rated Voltage 12 V.
Rated Ampere 2 A.
Speed 5,200 rpm.
Transmission System:
Spur Gears (Wheels free to rotate)
Gears Ratio: 1:19 (from motor to driving wheels)
Engine Speed: 56 meter / minute (average)
Drawbar Pull: 1.3 kg. at tender
Lights:
Rated Voltage 1.5, Rated Ampere 0.9 A (0.09 x 10 pcs.)
(A) ENGINE
1 X Headlight 1.5 V x 100 m A
1 x Mars Light 1.5 V x 100 m A (2 Filament bulb)
2 x Classification Lights 1.5 V X 100 m. A
2 x Number Board Lights 1.5 V x 100 m. A
(B) TENDER
2 x Marker Lights 1.5 V x 100 m. A
1 x Back-up Light 1.5 V x 100 m. A
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Edited by - Charles on 11 Aug 2005 06:06:34 |
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markoles
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 07:24:18
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So the drivers are actually hinged in the middle like the LGB Mikado, huh. I see what you are talking about with regard to the paint.
I'll have to download the videos later.
Mark
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Millersvillanova Rail Road
Lancaster, PA
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Bob Pero
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 07:37:25
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As an SP fan, I too am disappointed in the colors as shown in your pics. I would consider a "repaint". I have done it in HO for a customer many years ago. The decals could be procured from Stan or Robert Dustin. Is the striping and lettering done in the proper "lettering gray" or did they goof and use silver?
The warped tender truck can probably be fixed using a 150 Watt hair dryer if it is plastic. Geroge Schreyer used to do it with Bachmann and LGB trucks that came warped. His web site describes the procedure.
I know you have been waiting for this loco for some time, it is too bad that these problems showed up. Keep us posted. Thanks for posting the pictures. |
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billhhh
Brakeman
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 09:36:05
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Well when I got home from work yesterday there was a big box sitting in my driveway (UPS has more trust than I would)
I have to agree with Ray, the colors are a bit "bright" but I can live with it as i'm not going to drop 3k for the AC. The tender is very light and when backing my USA cars we seem to have issues, but nothing a couple pounds of lead won't fix. The slider shoes SUCK, they seem to be spaced so as to stall on my 30 degree crossovers if not traveling at a speed over 15smph also a few issues with a bent slider and an Aristocraft #6 switch (snagged big-time, tools required to seperate loco from track)
It will pull 4 USA streamliners (yeah, I know, wrong scale, but it looks good to me) on my RR with a 3% grade and 8ft curves. That stalling on the hill thing is kind of a pain, but it can be overcome by tweeking my (poor) trackwork
Had a great deal of difficulty getting the DCS system to find the gs4 but I made up a little programing track out of a 4' section of track and that made quick work of the programming. Once running I found the sounds a bit more hi-fi than my Challenger. The mars light is very cool, it smokes alot! the whistle sound is the classic Daylight wail it also has a secondary air horn sound. It does have firebox glow but due to the cab design it is hard to see (no little holes on the side like the Challenger.
I've already crashed it and I can attest to its durability (avoid 8' curves at high speed)
Overall, I think it's a keeper. The colors as Ray said, are "off" but I can live with it (would still have purchased had I seen it b4 ordering) It's not quite "Malibu Barbi" although the orange remindes me of Hotwheels track. It looks real good at night with a string of lighted cars.
Mine was ordered from Ridgeroad Station for 769.00 and as always I found their service excelent. |
Bill Moore
B.C.J & A Railroad
http://members.cox.net/bill-hhh
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Curmudgeon
Old Curmudgeon
1st Class Member
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 12:19:40
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Ray- Thanks for the review.
Had a call from a customer this morning who was looking to get the MTH unit, I linked him to your review, he ordered a Accu unit out of St. Aubins instead.
The question always has been, how much more does it cost to do it right than it does to do it wrong?
TOC |
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Rayman4449
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 12:33:01
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TOC/everyone, you're welcome.
What I've provided as far as example pics is as accurate as I can get them. I took a large series of pics at various f stops from over exposure to under and picked the ones I thought were correct. I've been working on this every day til midnight or later (2am Monday)trying to get the pics, videos and writeup out so people can make informed decisions.
For the record, this hasn't been meant to bash MTH in any way. It was my hope that it may help even one would-be-buyer that would be as bothered by the colors as I have. Sorry, but $800 is a lot of money to drop on an engine and it have this type of problem.
I agree, it should have cost $0.00 extra to get the colors right.
I will reply more later.
Raymond |
Need a Non-MTH engine equipped with DCS Protosound 2? I can help.
Raymond - Gardner, KS
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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Curmudgeon
Old Curmudgeon
1st Class Member
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 12:55:03
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Especially when he insists on "his way or the hi-way" s far as control and sound.
That makes it not so pleasant a purchase anyway, as cut-and-throw of that much should not be required if you want anything else.
Plus, last I checked, you could not buy his systems as stand-alone to update any other products, so you're stuck.
Trying to put the code wheels on existing encased motor blocks might have been a thrill, however.
TOC |
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Rayman4449
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 14:37:26
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Bill, how do you trigger the air horn?
Raymond |
Need a Non-MTH engine equipped with DCS Protosound 2? I can help.
Raymond - Gardner, KS
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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billhhh
Brakeman
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 15:26:07
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| The air horn is activated through the "soft" buttons (right under the display)on the dcs controler. as i recall it was pretty burried down under the "more" button but as you know those functions can be reordered. |
Bill Moore
B.C.J & A Railroad
http://members.cox.net/bill-hhh
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MarkLewis
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 15:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by billhhh
the whistle sound is the classic Daylight wail it also has a secondary air horn sound.
As I understand it. the original Daylights had no steam whistle, just the airhorn, hardly secondary. I do remember reading that a steam whistle was added to the "restored" GS-4, because the restorer liked whistles.
Mark
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 Mark Lewis
Mustang, OK
email: oktrains@oktrains.com
Proud member of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association
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Charles
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 16:22:53
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| Daylights were equipped with a Hancock long bell "steamboat" 3-chime whistle along with the horn seen on the front. Since being restored Daylight 4449 has carried and blown former Daylight 4459's whistle. 4449 lost her original whistle while it was displayed in the Portland park. |
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billhhh
Brakeman
USA
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Rayman4449
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 21:26:38
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ALL: I've updated the review to include the results from pulling an 11 car Heavyweight consist as well as the air horn info, plus some other stuff.
Bob: The lettering is in an off-white I guess I would say and isn't silver like on the Accucraft. I'm halfway wondering if MTH will actually correct the color... That would be the one thing holding me back from painting it now. I will need alot of coaching on how to do this correctly. If I do it, I MIGHT be able to get away with only repainting the red/pink as long as I can match the sheen of the orange. I may start another thread as time allows to start asking what type of tape should I use to tape off the boiler etc. Also if I do this, I'm going to shoot that smokebox with charcoal grill black to bring it back to the proper color. (The smokebox color is another thing I dont think looks right as the originals had black smokeboxes and just looks better black in my opinion.) Maybe I could chat with you some to get some pointers.
Thanks for the tip on the hair dryer(and the consolation), I will check out his site. :)
Charles: I will work on some sort of review between the MTH and Accucraft. In appearance there really is only one choice, the Accucraft is just incredible looking. For running however, the included sound and control in the MTH makes it a way better value(again not considering the paint job) and much less stressful for us poor folk who really couldn't afford to buy one in the first place. LOL.  If you really like the Daylight and really have the cash, get the Accucraft.
I forgot about the sliders and am not sure how well the engine will run without them. I'm not about to try as I have a feeling that ensuring a constant smooth supply of electricity is important in protecting the electronics. If you start having dips and sparks I would be affraid the electronics would be more likely to fail over time. No science behind that, just Ray's gut feeling. I didn't think about them cause I never notice them. I think my imagination is usually too busy transporting me back to the 1950's imaginging myself watching a real Challenger whizzing by. :) For what it's worth, I've been fortunate to not ever have any problems with my sliders catching on my #6 Aristo switch.
Billhhh: Thanks for the info on the air horn and the firebox, I update the review to include it.
Raymond
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Need a Non-MTH engine equipped with DCS Protosound 2? I can help.
Raymond - Gardner, KS
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com
Edited by - Rayman4449 on 11 Aug 2005 21:27:24 |
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MarkLewis
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 16:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles
Daylights were equipped with a Hancock long bell "steamboat" 3-chime whistle along with the horn seen on the front. Since being restored Daylight 4449 has carried and blown former Daylight 4459's whistle. 4449 lost her original whistle while it was displayed in the Portland park.
Thanks for correcting my "facts," Charles.
Mark
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Mark Lewis
Mustang, OK
email: oktrains@oktrains.com
Proud member of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association
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