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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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 Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 02:55:29
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Dear Those of you with an interest in British large scale, but who do not model in Gauge 1 -
Accucraft [UK] announce a Class 37 Diesel in 1:29th Standard Gauge – The design of this model is well underway with a release date of December/January. The first models will most likely be in BR Green and BR Blue.
Needless to say this will enrage the Gauge 1 modellers, as -
a. It will cost around 1/2 of the present, brass/nickel silver/resin KIT.
b. Will be ready to run, in a choice of liveries, and therefore deny them the undoubted pleasure of saying 'well, here's something I put together over the last six months or so', and thereby attract great awe and kudos.
The saving grace, as far as Gauge 1 purists are concerned, is that it is in a 'totally incorrect scale/gauge ratio' and will therefore look utterly ridiculous [Pardon me, but I think not].
Expect a UK mainland price MRSP of around £400...with Accucraft's legendary attention to detail a given.
Accucraft are VERY serious about the UK market, it seems, with a whole raft of British outline stuff planned in NG as well as full-bore... Next to arrive will be a cute Baguley-Drewry 0-6-0 outside cranked diesel engine for about £150, a load of Welshpool & Llanfair freight cars [£24] and a guards van [£30], the 'Caledonian' 0-6-0 steam loco from the Isle of Man Railway, and much, much more.
Things have never been brighter for the UK-interested modeller who lack the funds to run Gauge 1, or for the fan who wants to expand his British NG without breaking the bank.
I prophesy immediate sell-outs.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Branch] |
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Pete Piszczek
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 03:54:38
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OMG!
I've just bought a bunch of OO stuff cause I figured 1/29 British diesels would never hit the store shelves and I just had to have something BR to play with.
I'm going to be sorely tempted by a Green Class 37... |
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 05:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Piszczek
OMG!I've just bought a bunch of OO stuff cause I figured 1/29 British diesels would never hit the store shelves and I just had to have something BR to play with.
I'm going to be sorely tempted by a Green Class 37...
Yo Pete ol' buddy - where have YOU bin? Aristocraft are about to pop with the Canadian-built Class 66 in 1:29th...a sort-of Dash 9 variant with a double-cab-ended car body biggy - 4400hp on British, Belgian, Swedish and a couple of other country's tracks too. An order for 250 machines, designated Class 66 and using the GM EMD 710 series prime mover, microprocessor control and radial steering bogies, was formally placed with GM's facility in London, Ontario, Canada, with the first locomotive being shipped to England via Immingham Docks in April 1998.
Construction of the locos in Canada was swift, with over 150 in Great Britain by October 1999. Their speedy introduction, with many being placed directly into service from the dockside, saw the rapid withdrawal of older classes. Their performance has been quite superb, with very few online failures , and an availability figure surpassing that originally envisaged.
I predict that it will sell hugely over here and in mainland Europe, even at the near $600 price tag.
Aristo say that they plan to make a few Euro-look freight cars, probably hoppers, the main consist over here in UK, where we use the EWS-leased Class 66 as a carousel coal train system from Immingham port to Ferrybridge electrical power station. Freightliner locos haul container flats in long sets, too, yet another livery to see.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Branch] |
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Martin Goller
Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 06:35:57
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Why 1:29?
I thought Accucraft was a proponent of the true scale/gauge ratio? Is there 1:29 UK equipment?
On the other hand, they produce a 1:20.3 German prototype live steam loco, which doesn't make sense either. Its a prototype of a 750mm gauge engine, which in my math would translate to either a 1:16.7 scale on 45mm track, or it should be a 1:22.5 model to fit the LGB rolling stock (and have the wrong gauge for the scale).
Their Welsh Joan is 1:19
Their Mona No 5 Isle Of Man 2-4-0t is also 1:20.3
http://www.ontrackscart.co.uk/graphics/TACUME0011.JPG
Is it just to be on par with the announced Aristocraft class 66?
They broke with the 1:29 rule in the US...
Just wondering,
Martin |
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Pete Piszczek
Engineer
USA
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 09:16:16
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I knew the Class 66 was coming out. Although cool, it isn't a BR (British Rail) diesel to me. Give me something with a Sulzer, or English Electric, or Maybach power plant.
The Class 37 certainly fits that bill.
Lots of English stuff out there is 10mm scale. That's about 1/30.something, so the choice of 1/29 isn't that far off the mark and it matches Aristo/Bachmann's Class 66.
British outline is surprisingly small, a result of being the first to build Victorian extensive bridges and tunnels ~before~ the trains grew in size. The 1/29 Class 37 will look quite dainty next to a USA Alco PA... |
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 11:05:45
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[quote]Originally posted by Martin Goller
Why 1:29? I thought Accucraft was a proponent of the true scale/gauge ratio? Is there 1:29 UK equipment?
Dear Mr Goller - not yet there isn't, but the impending arrival of the Aristocraft Class 66 had obviously spurred Accucraft [UK] into getting into the act, and who can blame them?
'On the other hand, they produce a 1:20.3 German prototype live steam loco, which doesn't make sense either. Its a prototype of a 750mm gauge engine, which in my math would translate to either a 1:16.7 scale on 45mm track, or it should be a 1:22.5 model to fit the LGB rolling stock (and have the wrong gauge for the scale).'
Sadly, Mr Goller, you have the wrong end of the stick. 'Joan' is not intended to replicate a German locomotive, as it was built in 1927 by Kerr Stuarts in Stoke on Trent for the Antiguan sugar cane lines in the West Indies. It was rescued by the W&L from the cutters torch and after extensive overhaul was returned to traffic in 1977. This very "Colonial" looking loco was great fun to work as it was often near it's limit climbing the Golfa with a heavy train, but was surprisingly sure footed and had a tremendously noisy exhaust with the original chimney. This loco is currently out of service awaiting a major overhaul.
So it's NOT a German locomotive at all.
Here in UK, the home of garden railways, we commonly model in 16mm to the foot scale, to replicate running on the usual British narrow gauge track of around 2 feet. For that reason most live steam locomotives are modelled in or around that scale, which works out to about 1/19th. Accucraft, rightly wishing to cash in on the fairly large market here in UK, are in the habit of building their BRITISH live steam locomotives in or around this scale.
The 16mm Society was not founded just to run European metre gauge prototypes, but about running models of locomotives that are to be found on the many BRITISH narrow gauge steam lines as well. Our first 16mm steam locos were NOT of European prototypes, but of British ones, because of our teeny backyards and narrow track gauge that allowed small but interesting layouts in little space with our tiny STEAM locomotives.
To that end 'Joan' can be adapted to run on either 32mm track [2ft gauge in 1/19th or 16mm to the foot], or on the other popular ng track, 45mm. It is not intended to run with German rolling stock, but with the 16mm welshpool & Llanfair rolling stock. However, as this line has a large collection of former Zillertal passenger coaches, there is no doubt that many WILL run with these Austrian itmes, modelled by LGB for many years. I dare say that those of us who commit this awful crime will just have to learn to live with it [sigh]. I might add that the GRS series of correct 16mm/1/19th coaches is available for those for whom this is an unpardonable sin, but you DO have to build them first.
'Is it just to be on par with the announced Aristocraft class 66?'
Of course - see my comment above in the first paragraph.
'They broke with the 1:29 rule in the US...'
I don't understand this comment.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Branch] |
Edited by - tacfoley on 01 Aug 2005 07:44:54 |
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Hagen
Engineer
1st Class Member
Norway
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 14:32:28
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Britain is a very peculiar market as their 10mm scale is 1/30 so 1/29 would be rather more at home there.
I for one grief this as Aristo would have a chance at correcting the (in my eyes) 1/29 blunder and go for a true gauge/scale that has existed since the 1880s and I did actually expect Accucraft (shame on you) to stay with the correct ratios...
It does seem though that atleast GardenRailways has started to give lower scores to models with incorrect scale/gauge ratio and I applaud them for that.
Well what can I say, I for one am dissapointed...
Alltough the Class66 could have a future on my lines just to applaud a Euro prototype reasonably priced.
Argh, the struggle within |
Rune Hagen
Kongsberg, Norway
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ralphbrades
Engineer
United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 15:58:03
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Terry,
And here I was thinking that I was the person trying to convert the world to 16mm!!!
regards
ralph |
The home of Articulated Ugliness
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 16:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ralphbrades
Terry,And here I was thinking that I was the person trying to convert the world to 16mm!!!
regards
ralph
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Branch] |
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Jerry McColgan
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 06:42:44
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Hi TAC,
Something else to think about...
While at the NGRC show I asked Jack Lynch of LGB if they had any plans for a British train.
I was somewhat surprised when Jack said that it is something LGB wants to do and that he personally wants to see it happen.
I don't think that any specific decisions have been made but the future for British trains is starting to look promising.
You had mentioned a fire at Huntingdon Station. When did that happen and was the damage severe?
Jerry |
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rwbrashear
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 07:00:45
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Jerry-
quote:
While at the NGRC show I asked Jack Lynch of LGB if they had any plans for a British train.
I was somewhat surprised when Jack said that it is something LGB wants to do and that he personally wants to see it happen.
I don't think that any specific decisions have been made...
You mean other than repainting a French loco?
http://217.160.206.33/produkt.nsf/WebSucheIE/A743AF3481C70BC9852570260052EEED?OpenDocument
Best regards,
Bob |
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 09:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry McColgan
Hi TAC,Something else to think about...
While at the NGRC show I asked Jack Lynch of LGB if they had any plans for a British train.
I was somewhat surprised when Jack said that it is something LGB wants to do and that he personally wants to see it happen.
I don't think that any specific decisions have been made but the future for British trains is starting to look promising.
You had mentioned a fire at Huntingdon Station. When did that happen And was the damage severe?
Jerry
Dear Cous - as with Herr Richter three years ago, I'll believe it when I see it, but remember, over here we model British stuff in 1:19th scale, NOT 1:22.5.
As for the cynical repaint job - I won't say what I really think, but if I tell you that only one of the 40-50 British ng modellers I spoke to at a recent get together had ever heard of 'Cambrai', or the railway it used to run on, which was in a privately-owned iron works, and therefore not open to the public and famous as a result.
That includes me. And I live less than 20 miles away from it.
On the other hand, a much more well-known locomotive to model would have been the Franco-Belge 0-8-0 'Sir Drefaldwyn' from the Welshpool & Llanfair. At least the real live working railway there has the benefit of around 100,000 visitors/passengers a year, unlike the whatsit museum where 'Cambrai' is stored in dusty silence. The LGB 0-8-0 chassis already exists - Rugen would do nicely. And it is a European prototype as well, and would sell on mainland Europe as yet another 760mm or metre gauge loco.
If not 'Sir Drefadlwyn', then 'Chattenden' the ex-Royal Naval dockyard six-coupled shunter...again, the LGB chassis already exists.
If not that, then the beautiful 2-6-2 #14/85.....ex-Sierra Leone tank loco, again, the LGB chassis already exists in two forms - either the rather bulky older 2-6-2 whose number I can't recall, or 'Spreewald' with another pair on wheels on the back...
The opportunities are there, but have been ignored for years..
Nuff said, I CAN get very het up about it.
As for Huntingdon Station, it was partly destroyed in a fire sometime in May, while we were in Portland/Seattle. Work is going on as I write this to make a perfect restoration.
best wishes
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Bracnh]
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Edited by - tacfoley on 01 Aug 2005 03:13:11 |
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 09:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by rwbrashear
You mean other than repainting a French loco?
Best regards,
Bob
Hey, Everybody!!!! HE said that! NOT me! I didn't say it. Nope, not me, Sir. 'Twas 'im......
Repainting a French locomotive? Well, the very thought that anyone would do a thing like that...tsk tsk .
tac NOT rwbrashear. |
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Jerry McColgan
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 20:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley
quote:
Originally posted by rwbrashear
You mean other than repainting a French loco?
Best regards,
Bob
Hey, Everybody!!!! HE said that! NOT me! I didn't say it. Nope, not me, Sir. 'Twas 'im......
Repainting a French locomotive? Well, the very thought that anyone would do a thing like that...tsk tsk .
tac NOT rwbrashear.
I'm not trying to put words into Jack's mouth or imply that anything specific is coming. I did comment to Jack that I would not be surprised if more of a future LGB British Type loco and train ended up being purchased by Americans than by British and he did not disagree.
It might be that there could be a brighter future for British Garden Railroading based on 45mm track and the scales currently being sold in the USA and elsewhere around the world rather than the current scales in the UK.
I expect that the big question manufacturers are asking themselves is if production in current UK scales would be profitable vs an expanded market (to include the US) by producing non-current UK scales.
The reality (I think) is that Americans identify more with the British and with British things than with European things. Maybe future success might be beyond expectations for a company that approaches it that way.
Like I said, these are my thoughts not those of anyone else.
Jerry |
Edited by - Jerry McColgan on 31 Jul 2005 20:15:08 |
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tacfoley
Engineer
1st Class Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 03:07:25
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Dear Cous - I hear ya. BUT, and there is a VERY big BUT...
Almost the entire, and VERY large, even by US standards, UK ng model railway theme is based on the 2ft gauge track that has, for the last almost 40 years been replicated by the scale of 16mm to the foot. NOT because we are luddites, but because 16mm to the foot equals two foot gauge running on 0 gauge track.
This gives us nice big chunky, or even large to VERY large [see the old thread on the 16mm Accucraft Garratts] to run on our otherwise teeny tracks. Even our 2ft 6in Welshpool locos, 'Earl' and 'Countess', are impressive to handle and watch in action, as anyone who has seen them will testify [Hi there, Dwight!!].
LGB are tied to a scale of 1:22.5 for their European stuff, which does not match up with anything we have had for the last 40-something years here. And believe me, the difference between a 1:19 British loco and and a 1:22.5 'British' loco is considerable.
Until LGB make a model in 1:19 scale, of a famous locomotive to be found here in UK - not an obscure and obscured industrial line that hardly anybody has ever heard of - they will have no credibility with the vast majority of BRITISH-themed 16mm garden railway modellers here in UK.
The suggestion from most of my contacts over the last TEN years that this subject has reared its head was for a double Fairlie locomotive from the Ffestioniog Railway. Unique in the UK to this line, they are the epitome of popular Welsh NG lcomotives, BUT have nevertheless appeared over the years in other countries. A few keen modellers have built their own, using a pair of Stainz chassis, in fact, GRS make a very fine resin and styrene kit for this loco using that very same principal. I know that Mike in Spain will steam slightly at me if I say that it needs care and attention to make a good job, but, at around £200 or so plus two Stainz chassis, it is, however, pretty easy on the pockets. For those with the urge but no skills, GRS also supply a beautiful black-painted brass model, ready to run after the application of panels and lining [a service that can be provided in-house if needed], but of the the rather more exalted price of around £800 [un-pannelled].
However, as far as LGB and a REAL 1:19 scale loco go, I still feel as though I am widdling over the edge of the Grand Canyon. There is simply no evidence of any sympathetic noise coming from LGB. There never has been, and to my mind, there never will be.
Look at it from OUR perspective for a moment. Somebody deep in the Jura Mountains casually suggests that it would be really cool if LGB brought out an MoW loco for the R*B - something that just about EVERYBODY in theentire wolrd of ng has always wanted desperately, and a constant topic of conversation wherever model railways are discussed in the wee small hours.....
Bingo - it appears.
All of you, and us over here, too, are asking for a simple British NG outline loco, ANY loco, based on any 4, 6 or 8-coupled chassis that is already in production.
Bingo - nothing.
I rest my case.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [UK Branch] |
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Jerry McColgan
Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 07:06:40
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Hi TAC,
I don't know but it would seem to be a question of the old narrow gauge vs standard gauge.
Maybe for narrow gauge you are correct (I don't debate it).
I wonder if a greater market (extending beyond the UK) would be met by standard gauge?
What is/was the gauge of UK main line railroads?
Jerry |
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